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Zahir

Guest
I for one am not as experienced as you guys might be in picking up the nuances of distillation left upon the oil by the distiller. So that, to me, remains a mystery. I have smelt a similarity in the opening notes of some of IO oils but I am unsure whether that's from the wood itself or from the distillation techniques of the distiller. Perhaps that deserves its own explanation in a separate thread by someone who is experienced.
 

Al Shareef Oudh

Master Perfumer
I received a couple of DMs with folks asking me which oils i pick up yellow, green or black kyara note on low low low heat in and I figured a forum response may be best as i believe this is not as clear-cut and worthy of a discussion.

oils with some suggestions of it
ASO ceen chinese
AA kanzen cambodi

oils built around this note but have other stuff going on:
ASO malek ceeni chinese
AA kiyosumi vietnamese

oils that are pretty much focused entirely on this note:
AA VSK vietnamese
IO FHI (yellow and green) Hong kong
AA wanmei (black, touch green) vietnamese
AA kenmei(green) vietnamese

i may have left some behind. was going off memory.

note: not one Ensar oud in the list! how? why? to my nose no ensar kinam/kyara oils really goes about making its sole purpose to just capture this note in the oleoresin. ensar has said many times he doesn't do minimalism and capturing the scent of wood on low heat to oil in his view doesn't make sense. oil should be far greater than the scent of the wood and in a way of alchemy should bring to life new and never before seen aromas. I personally value both arguments that taha has for his gen 3 and ensars. I, in fact, want both and would be a sad world to wake up to one day and see either philosophy and its oils are a thing of the past.

I see ensar kinam/kyara oils to be more than just zooming in on the japanese shin kyara, green,yellow/black oil kyara note on low heat. i see them built as grand symphonies where this note is part of many others. i see them as more Chinese origin kinam (hainan, HK) or red kinam of vietnam and cambodia. i know i know. kinam kyara should be interchangeable. but i just dont see it that way.

Instead of the focus on the mint/vanilla/cream note of green oil, vanilla condensed milk of black oil or the more floral perfumed cooling yellow oil, ensar's kinam/kyara oils are more medicinal and focused on the bitter mind buzz qualities of kinam. the smoke of its incense or the wood on medium+ heat. nha trang ltd, kyara ltd, hainan 05 and countless others are distinctly kinamic and not only based on the nose confirming, but the mind too, yet they don't really go about capturing the kyara note on low yeat. they are more like a great kyara incense like baieido kokoh or translucent path of shoyeido, or the great kyara enju by seijudo. at least the first and third incense are documented to be about capturing the green oil kyara note, but this is very different note than the wood on low low low heat. this is more like kyarazen's own creation of strictly green oil kyara and charcoal powder. the super thin micron thin incense he released earlier. the dragon smoke note...

lets discuss and share and most importantly enjoy all the varieties for it is the spice of life :)

For a complete ky nam experience, from top to bottom, i wish you had tried Lam'ah https://alshareefoudh.com/product-detail.php?product_id=56

'Smells like' is always going to be that, the next best thing regardless of how many nuances.
 
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Zahir

Guest
For a complete ky nam experience, from top to bottom, i wish you had tried Lam'ah https://alshareefoudh.com/product-detail.php?product_id=56

'Smells like' is always going to be that, the next best thing regardless of how many nuances.

That is indeed a feat. But correct me if I'm wrong when I say that grading the wood as Kinam itself is subjective. And just some more critique of Lamah (although not having tried it. Rather based purely on what I read in the description): the Kinam in Lamah sounds like was gathered from different places. That being the case, how can Lamah depict one true Kinamic note? And so how would the wearer know what he smells in Lamah is truly Kinam. Vs just the Vietnamese oud notes used alongside. In my (newbie) opinion, to have truly experienced Kinam from top to bottom, like you described for Lamah, it would have had to be a pure Kinam oil, from one region, if not free a single tree. To avoid additional notes from other Kinam and non-Kinam wood. And if not that, then one has to fumigate Kinam to digest and absorb its' notes and scent profile. Akin to how in order to relate to sandal or musky notes, one has to have appreciated those scenta individually, in their purest avaipable form, in order to relate to that. Otherwise, like you said, it is merely speculation that perhaps this is what sandal or musk smells like just because it was mentioned in the description for me.

This is just my criticism.
 

Al Shareef Oudh

Master Perfumer
That is indeed a feat. But correct me if I'm wrong when I say that grading the wood as Kinam itself is subjective. And just some more critique of Lamah (although not having tried it. Rather based purely on what I read in the description): the Kinam in Lamah sounds like was gathered from different places. That being the case, how can Lamah depict one true Kinamic note? And so how would the wearer know what he smells in Lamah is truly Kinam. Vs just the Vietnamese oud notes used alongside. In my (newbie) opinion, to have truly experienced Kinam from top to bottom, like you described for Lamah, it would have had to be a pure Kinam oil, from one region, if not free a single tree. To avoid additional notes from other Kinam and non-Kinam wood. And if not that, then one has to fumigate Kinam to digest and absorb its' notes and scent profile. Akin to how in order to relate to sandal or musky notes, one has to have appreciated those scenta individually, in their purest avaipable form, in order to relate to that. Otherwise, like you said, it is merely speculation that perhaps this is what sandal or musk smells like just because it was mentioned in the description for me.

This is just my criticism.

You are wrong the classification of Ky Nam is not subjective. Major auction houses that deal with Ky Nam on regular basis such as Jia-Di in Hongkong, sotherby, christies in Hongkong and Beijing, they will tell you there is an exact methodology for the classification process and they have trained people that carry out this process. IF you have a piece that you would like to sell, they will actually sit with you and assess the piece in front of you explaining the conditions the piece must meet before it can be classified as Ky Nam. Likewise the Japanese incense houses can explain to you that there is a methodology in determining what wood is Ky Nam/ Kyara.

You also seem to mix a few different concepts regarding to Ky Nam and origin. Ky Nam pieces have been known to originate from different regions, from Vietnam all the way to Borneo, if they meet the classification criteria they are Ky Nam.

A green Ky Nam piece will offer a finite number of scent profiles. A black Ky Nam piece will offer a finite number of scent profiles, the two set of profiles will have some similarities and some differences. If you combine the two together, you have a much more complete experience as you will experience a much greater number of scent profiles.

As with regards to the Vietnamese in Lam'ah, the Vietnamese oil in Lam'ah plays the same role tyres play on a Rolls Royce. Hopefully you can try some somewhere along your oudh journey and smell for yourself. We would have sent you a drop, but it is sold out.

As with regards to your earlier posts keep in mind, what you take in through your eyes, ears, mouth and even skin sensors affects your sense of smell. As brother Rai says, ignore what vendors write, just test the oil :).

Wish you a good oudh journey...
 
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Zahir

Guest
You are wrong the classification of Ky Nam is not subjective. Major auction houses that deal with Ky Nam on regular basis such as Jia-Di in Hongkong, sotherby, christies in Hongkong and Beijing, they will tell you there is an exact methodology for the classification process and they have trained people that carry out this process. IF you have a piece that you would like to sell, they will actually sit with you and assess the piece in front of you explaining the conditions the piece must meet before it can be classified as Ky Nam. Likewise the Japanese incense houses can explain to you that there is a methodology in determining what wood is Ky Nam/ Kyara.

You also seem to mix a few different concepts regarding to Ky Nam and origin. Ky Nam pieces have been known to originate from different regions, from Vietnam all the way to Borneo, if they meet the classification criteria they are Ky Nam.

A green Ky Nam piece will offer a finite number of scent profiles. A black Ky Nam piece will offer a finite number of scent profiles, the two set of profiles will have some similarities and some differences. If you combine the two together, you have a much more complete experience as you will experience a much greater number of scent profiles.

As with regards to the Vietnamese in Lam'ah, the Vietnamese oil in Lam'ah plays the same role tyres play on a Rolls Royce. Hopefully you can try some somewhere along your oudh journey and smell for yourself. We would have sent you a drop, but it is sold out.

As with regards to your earlier posts keep in mind, what you take in through your eyes, ears, mouth and even skin sensors affects your sense of smell. As brother Rai says, ignore what vendors write, just test the oil :).

Wish you a good oudh journey...

Thank you so much for your education :) I have thought that Kinam/Kyara was a subjective categorization. I guess I could not have been more wrong! After all, you would expect that something you are spending $$$$ per gram for would have a more objective way of defining it. But then ofcourse, you can't blame a newbie like myself for not knowing these 'trade secrets' as those objective criteria are not well known. And despite you mentioning the auction houses that may have the criteria down, we, as consumers in the West, still do not know those criteria that define Kinam. Unless it has already been posted somewhere and I am just oblivious to it... :(

Sure enough, I have come across the info that Kinam is not just from Vietnam and that there different grades even within Kinam. But my question to you would then be: if you mix various kinds of Kinam together in one oil, how would an untrained nose dissect one kind of Kinam note from another? Wouldn't it be better to learn the nuances of each Kinam individually before delving into the complexity that arises when you mix different Kinam woods together in one oil?

As for the Vietnamese oil used for Kinam extraction: I think it is not fair to correlate it to the tires in a car; as the tires are inert whereas the Vietnamese oil is not. I would have preferred a neutral carrier oil over any Oud oil for the extraction of Kinam in order to preserve the truest aroma of Kinam without any chance of the Oud oil aroma lingering over into the Kinam extraction.

Having said all of this: I do think it is quite a feat to have used that much actual Kinam for making Lamah! And I certainly appreciate your generosity in wanting to dispense me even a drop of it, if it were available. But in order for me to see what an oil made out of Kinam would be like, it would have to be Kinam alone. One subtype of Kinam, in each oil individually. When I have got my notes for each Kinam subtype down, only THEN would I think about trying an oil made from different subtypes of Kinam. But never can I imagine an oil or extraction of Kinam being mixed with another Oud oil to call it a pure Kinam experience. Just my objective rationalization to evoke meaningful conversation. No intention to hurt anyone!
 

powdernose

Oud Sprite
You are wrong the classification of Ky Nam is not subjective. Major auction houses that deal with Ky Nam on regular basis such as Jia-Di in Hongkong, sotherby, christies in Hongkong and Beijing, they will tell you there is an exact methodology for the classification process and they have trained people that carry out this process. IF you have a piece that you would like to sell, they will actually sit with you and assess the piece in front of you explaining the conditions the piece must meet before it can be classified as Ky Nam. Likewise the Japanese incense houses can explain to you that there is a methodology in determining what wood is Ky Nam/ Kyara.

Thanks. Is the methodology published anywhere?
Or if it is known, can anyone describe it?

But in order for me to see what an oil made out of Kinam would be like, it would have to be Kinam alone.

How much money do you have to spare? :Whistling:
 

Habz786

Resident Artisan & Ouddict Co-Founder
@Zahir let me know if you find any 100% pure single or mixed source kinam oil/extraction which is available to buy. It just wouldnt make any sense and the cost would be insane, there could be someone rich and crazy enough out there maybe....:confused:
 
Z

Zahir

Guest
@Zahir let me know if you find any 100% pure single or mixed source kinam oil/extraction which is available to buy. It just wouldnt make any sense and the cost would be insane, there could be someone rich and crazy enough out there maybe....:confused:

Oh guys, I wasn't implying that there IS such an oil out there. I was merely conversing what a pure Kinam oil for me would have to be like. I have no doubt that it will never be made, given the astronomical cost of the Kinam woof itself! The distiller would not be able to pull it through and the customer would not be able to purchase the end product as well! Besides, I read on Kyarazen website that distilling an oil from resin rich wood such as Kinam, does not make sense as well. Just a side point ofcourse, apart from the rarity and cost of Kinam.

PS: I think we are already the crazies in the eyes of non-oud loving population, spending $$$ and $$$$ on a small bottle of oil
 

Al Shareef Oudh

Master Perfumer
Thanks. Is the methodology published anywhere?
Or if it is known, can anyone describe it?



How much money do you have to spare? :Whistling:

I think Kyarazen had once put something out about it, drop him a line.

@Zahir

For an overall experience of Ky Nam it would only make sense that there is representation of all the types of Ky Nam. We were not focused on developing singular experience of each type of Ky Nam separately. Lam'ah is not that, Lam'ah provides a top down overall Ky Nam experience without focusing on one type of Ky Nam. Hence why we used a variety of Ky Nam types.

The Vietnamese works like the tyre example on the Rolls Royce. In the drive experience on a RR the tyre is not inert, from a chemical perspective yes, but the RR ride is not a chemical reaction but a physical experience and the tyre has a physical carrier role to play, but it doesn't mix in the make of the car. Likewise the Vietnamese in Lam'ah plays that carrier role. We carefully selected Vietnamese wood that would play that specific role. There is a thread on here that discusses Lam'ah in detail, in any case that isn't the topic of this thread.

To your last paragraph good luck, wish you all the best with those thoughts :D
 
Z

Zahir

Guest
I think Kyarazen had once put something out about it, drop him a line.

@Zahir

For an overall experience of Ky Nam it would only make sense that there is representation of all the types of Ky Nam. We were not focused on developing singular experience of each type of Ky Nam separately. Lam'ah is not that, Lam'ah provides a top down overall Ky Nam experience without focusing on one type of Ky Nam. Hence why we used a variety of Ky Nam types.

The Vietnamese works like the tyre example on the Rolls Royce. In the drive experience on a RR the tyre is not inert, from a chemical perspective yes, but the RR ride is not a chemical reaction but a physical experience and the tyre has a physical carrier role to play, but it doesn't mix in the make of the car. Likewise the Vietnamese in Lam'ah plays that carrier role. We carefully selected Vietnamese wood that would play that specific role. There is a thread on here that discusses Lam'ah in detail, in any case that isn't the topic of this thread.

To your last paragraph good luck, wish you all the best with those thoughts :D

Well, we know that the last para is not happening :D

Thank you for the clarification. I suspected that much based on what you had explained earlier: that Lamah is about overall Kinam experience and not a singular Kinam one. To each their own :)
 

Rasoul Salehi

True Ouddict
it is my understanding that kinam/kyara is NOT resin rich at all. in fact is the polar opposite, it is oil rich. remmeber.... we learned from the whole kyen thread...
 
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Zahir

Guest
Would you please post the link, respected Zahir?

This is what I was referencing to. Ofcourse, what I said are not is exact words. But I will quote what he has mentioned there:

"Selecting materials for distillation into oil is also very important. Its perhaps more successful to get oil from early/mid long term infection wood, or some bunkish material, than to get them form sinking heavily resinated materials.

If heavily resinated agarwood is made into oil, the consumer needs to consider if the math adds up. What is the typical yield of agarwood distillation? Why did Prof Dinh of secoin write with a picture of heavily resinated agarwood that gave very little oil on distillation? With the typical yields known, and the price per kilogram of heavily resinated agarwood in the tens of thousands at least, what would be the price per tola of such oil in this process?"

So you may say that what I said is implied by what I quoted from him. That has also made me wonder that does using the most resinated wood one can get their hands on necessarily mean higher quality oil?
 

language scent

True Woodict
Oh guys, I wasn't implying that there IS such an oil out there. I was merely conversing what a pure Kinam oil for me would have to be like. I have no doubt that it will never be made, given the astronomical cost of the Kinam woof itself! The distiller would not be able to pull it through and the customer would not be able to purchase the end product as well! Besides, I read on Kyarazen website that distilling an oil from resin rich wood such as Kinam, does not make sense as well. Just a side point ofcourse, apart from the rarity and cost of Kinam.

PS: I think we are already the crazies in the eyes of non-oud loving population, spending $$$ and $$$$ on a small bottle of oil
Kinam is not rare or scarce. It is ABUNDANT exists by the TONS AND TONS for 10-15 different entities. It is just like diamonds, highly abundant but controlled by specific entities who have collected it all out of nature so they force it to be rare-expensive. Distilling oil from it is just as expensive as regular cultivated wood for those who mined and hunted it out of all jungles lol just not for everyone else ;) Of course for the diamonds it is a different story as the mines are the ones giving it a price tag by calling it rare.

That is just a side note, I am not saying it is not rare just because of this situation that was created by the old Japanese houses and the Chinese tycoons, I just wanted to say it is not naturally rare and it is important for everyone to know these things.
 
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