Arsalan

True Ouddict
Why?
Are the distillers/vendors afraid that the consumers are going to do distillation setups in their living room?
Some people can just wear oud and don’t care, some can get very passionate about and start asking questions about all that jazz.

Perhaps some ask questions to justify paying the big bucks...$$$$$....
 

Ashfaque

Jonoon al Oud
Why?
Are the distillers/vendors afraid that the consumers are going to do distillation setups in their living room?
Some people can just wear oud and don’t care, some can get very passionate about and start asking questions about all that jazz.
No harm in asking though. But my short and flippant answer is I'm a theoretical macro-economist, Peter. :D

Somewhat long answer: Similar things are also in academia. More generally, when asked, we rarely get a direct answer mainly for the following reasons (nor do I expect one!):
- Competition: if it's something my colleagues are working on and that they have submitted it to an academic journal for publication. In my area, they will typically share the algorithm (before publication confirmation) only upon request and not with everybody and if there is chance of improving it and the paper itself.
- To avoid spoon-feeding: It ruins the aptitude especially amongst students. I never got a short and exam-script-type answer from my thesis advisors on anything. Ever! I now appreciate the benefits now. If someone tells me to send them some journal articles, I'll happily email them those papers. But if someone asks me to solve an equation from a journal article for him, I won't do it - even if I knew that person(tutee, relative or friend), not even for money (I once had x-students asking me solve some mathematical modelling problems)!
- The other issue is in my field there is nothing straight forward. It seems, in general, the same applies for oud and other oils. I prefer to use mathematics to explain it the following way: I can see there are few hundreds (, or even thousands) of permutation (nPr) and combination (nCr) possible. This would lead to even more confusion.
- Please bear in mind that I am assuming vendors are honest. So far I have only dealt with such people - thanks to internet forums. So, if we add in dishonest distillers and sellers then those nPr and nCr numbers will be lot larger and consequently even more confusions.
 
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Rai Munir

Musk Man
I'm a theoretical macro-economist
Oh, No! A potential distiller. Grameen Oud will emerge soon and there will be no more masking and micro-financing won't be declared macro, and micro-credit will rule. And then of course, The IMF and The World Banks of Oud will pose sanctions, or at least will broadside in the beginning.;)

Well, I think it is neither because of competition nor to shun spoon feeding, etc. It is for nothing.

Please bear in mind that I am assuming vendors are honest
Fair enough.
 

F4R1d0uX

Resident Artisan
Whyb
Are the distillers/vendors afraid that the consumers are going to do distillation setups in their living room?
Some people can just wear oud and don’t care, some can get very passionate about and start asking questions about all that jazz.

No they are afraid other vendors/distillers get theirs to make it short and close it definitely since you all seem to not understand it :Roflmao::Roflmao::Roflmao::Roflmao:.
 

F4R1d0uX

Resident Artisan
Brother @Rasoul Salehi I'm really sorry but I will not bother teacher again.

Some people said they can transform resin in oil, all people seemed excited to wait for answer : can resin be distilled ? Does that made the smell better ?

Answer were given and people stay cold like if they never asked.

I take conclusions to this act of bravoury from forum users (including usees who knew it and prefer shut) and I move foward I dont want to be seen as an unbalanced.

You know brother forums exist since long time and if you go deep in old post, you will see people who already gave alert on false advertising, hidden forum ownership ect ect ... but as people prefered to shut for a reason I still ignore, everyone who tried ended tired.

So I hope you will understand ...

Today my honnor is washed, thanks to who believed, thanks for who didn't also.
Nobody ever quoted me as someone knowledgable before, always asking each vendor here excepted me until @Ouddict did yesterday.

I move on, have all a good day :Thumbsup:.
 

Ashfaque

Jonoon al Oud
Oh, No! A potential distiller. Grameen Oud will emerge soon and there will be no more masking and micro-financing won't be declared macro, and micro-credit will rule. And then of course, The IMF and The World Banks of Oud will pose sanctions, or at least will broadside in the beginning.;)

Well, I think it is neither because of competition nor to shun spoon feeding, etc. It is for nothing.
I'm not a fan of micro-credit since 2004. This is when a faculty of our school explained about the trap it comes with. Me and my thesis advisers have love-hate relationships with the other institutions you mentioned. I'm quite happy with my current profession in the academia. ;)
 
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powdernose

Oud Sprite
I hear ya amigo :) Ironically - you've probed the point I'm trying to make. You're overthinking the analogy.

Perhaps. I'm a stickler for good analogies. :)
Now that you've explained more, I get you too.

When you go to a restaurant with better food - the quality of the ingredients is higher and so is the skill with which it is cooked. Those are generally already givens as evidenced by the better food.

The point is, that whether you go to some street food dive or the to the best of fine dining, you're always provided with a list of ingredients and the basic preparation process.
I think that should translate to oud oil too. I shouldn't have to ask what the grade of the feedstock was, I shouldn't have to ask if it was steam distilled or water distilled or whatever. I shouldn't have to ask the date of distillation, or wonder what the species of the plant was, or where it was harvested. Quite frankly, these details should be on the label, on every label.

Just as when buying a painting - you're not paying for the cost of the canvas and paint. You're paying for the skill of the painter. You're paying for something unique. You're paying for something they found and provided access to that one normally might not have access to.

That's a better analogy.
But I disagree with that line of thinking. One of the biggest issues I see within the oud world is how over-romanticised distillation is.
The bottom line is that pure oud, as I believe the majority of us see it and seek it, is an essential oil (and if it is not a 100% pure essential oil, that really needs to be stated).
So to forego all analogies, how would you source a lavender essential oil?
As a natural perfumer and someone who uses essential oils in their therapeutic capacity I'm sure you have certain demands regarding the details of any essential oil you source.
I'm sure that you'd like to know whether the feedstock is lavender from some random outback garden, or if it is organically high grown and hand picked in Provence, would you not? Perhaps you'd even seek a specific standard in the chemical makeup? Or a purity test?
I hardly think you set aside all the details and rely simply on the aroma and trust.
So, what are your informational demands when sourcing a new essential oil?
And why should we have any less demands when sourcing oud, as a pure essential oil?

Part of what I don't like about this discussion is the emphasis on the cost of the raw materials. You're not paying just for the raw materials (hand smacks face)

I think the emphasis is on knowing what is actually going into the distilling pot.
And no, we are not just paying for the raw materials, I think that much is clear to most of us.
But on the other hand, the cost of the final product should be relative to the cost of the first material. Why should we be oblivious to the costs of the first materials?
To put forward a purely theoretical example: if the production costs per ml are 10$ and the final product is priced at 1000$ per ml, would that be fair? Shouldn't there be some balance to that equation? And why should we be completely in the dark with regard to production costs?

I had a customer recently reach out wondering why the price of my Musk Rose Attar is higher than the price of any of the individual ingredients in the Attar. "Why are you charging some so much" was the gist of how I took the comment.

I completely sympathise with you on this point.
My own answer to that question would be along the lines of: "Well you are free to try and source the materials yourself and create your own version".
This, I believe, is where your painting analogy best applies; creating a perfume involves artistry, the canvas and paint on their own are of no value without the creativity of the perfumer to bring these elements into an artistic whole.

That being said, as you are a perfume industry insider, I'm sure you'd admit that the secrecy and lack of transparency in that industry is excessive.

A while back I had a contract with the Discovery Channel. They were working on putting together a show about Ambergris.
Do you know why the show in large part never happened? It's because I was the only person that they could find that was really willing to talk to them.

That's a shame.
Secrecy to that level only does disservice to knowledge and progress.

Just like we started out with the analogy - sure, good restaurants use better ingredients - but the magic is found in the techniques of cooking. And I highly doubt anyone will get into the details upon which they stake their living.

And yet chefs do! They do it all the time, share to every minutiae!
Why? Because they know that as @peter4ptv says, not everybody is going to set up shop in their living rooms and kitchens and stop going out to restaurants.
Beside the details of the process, you still need the equipment, the ability to source everything, the right connections sometimes, the skill set to execute, the time and application to to actually get through the process...etc. When we are buying the final product, we are not just buying the first materials, but also all the effort and expertise aforementioned.

And regarding the fear of competition you and @F4R1d0uX mention, there will always be little trade secrets that might be omitted, but staying with the food analogy, I feel chef's have realised that they are not re-inventing the wheel, and they can not stop copy cats,
that the only way to stay ahead is to be the best when it comes to execution.

Maybe it is just me, but I find the true masters of their trade are always sharing and always progressing.

Who else thinks like I do? Or at least gets my drift?

I agree, and get your gist and understand all your points.
But I'd like to make the clarification that I don't expect 100% of the information.
So I am happy to know 95% of the story and I can hypothesise about the other 5% as I also enjoy a little mystery.
95% would be amazing.
Some producers share more than others, regardless of the product. If I'm getting stonewalled, I use @PEARL's strategy and walk away (unless the end product speaks volumes on its own),
if I find a producer that is more open, I'm more willing to stick around and discover.


- Competition: if it's something my colleagues are working on and that they have submitted it to an academic journal for publication. In my area, they will typically share the algorithm (before publication confirmation) only upon request and not with everybody and if there is chance of improving it and the paper itself.

Before publication, and you're still sharing, just selectively.
The secrecy here has an expiration date ;)

- To avoid spoon-feeding: It ruins the aptitude especially amongst students.

Definitely agree. But there is a big difference between spoon feeding and taking someone by the hand to assist or lead him through a process.
It is one thing to brush off people unwilling to do any of the leg work,
and another to limit one's help to simply saying: "Read that book, it has the answers".
The second form of help, especially when delivered with the typical attitude it typically comes with, really annoys me.

I'm always happy to share what I've learned and be an open book to questions , as I'm always evolving
Service to others is the greatest gift we can give ourselves.
That's it. Even if it is not a service to humanity, things are destined to come out of the stashes made up of either wood or brain cells. Sooner or later.

:handok::bowing:
 

powdernose

Oud Sprite
I have been using my coffee grinder and espresso machine to make my own oil.

You're gonna make me try that!!!!
:Geek::Alien::eek:

Okay, that’s just the left side of my brain talking.
The other side of my brain doesn’t really care:p

And where do they intersect? :p
lines cross.jpg
 

F4R1d0uX

Resident Artisan
And regarding the fear of competition you and @F4R1d0uX mention, there will always be little trade secrets that might be omitted, but staying with the food analogy, I feel chef's have realised that they are not re-inventing the wheel, and they can not stop copy cats,
that the only way to stay ahead is to be the best when it comes to execution.

Maybe it is just me, but I find the true masters of their trade are always sharing and always progressing.


Hi @powdernose you are right, and more than a fake master, i consider myself a baby blurping mother milk, I'm good with this.

Some of my customers email me when they buy my oils and ask me more details in private once trust has been established and I'm happy to give them (this happened precisely yesterday again).

I think he must be a baby-sitter or something like this because he seemed happy. If someone is not satisfied, he has the power and the free will to not buy.

or my favorite, the only way for you to have this supreme gift and ability is if you submit yourself to some ancient, sufi-like, Pai Mei character who will snatch your eyeball out lest you be a docile and obedient pupil; throwing star throwing, blowdart blowing, jungle super samarai ninjas included.

:Roflmao::Roflmao::Roflmao::Roflmao::Roflmao::Roflmao::Roflmao: + 9x10 99
 

RisingPhoenix

Resident Artisan
Perhaps. I'm a stickler for good analogies. :)
Now that you've explained more, I get you too.



The point is, that whether you go to some street food dive or the to the best of fine dining, you're always provided with a list of ingredients and the basic preparation process.
I think that should translate to oud oil too. I shouldn't have to ask what the grade of the feedstock was, I shouldn't have to ask if it was steam distilled or water distilled or whatever. I shouldn't have to ask the date of distillation, or wonder what the species of the plant was, or where it was harvested. Quite frankly, these details should be on the label, on every label.



That's a better analogy.
But I disagree with that line of thinking. One of the biggest issues I see within the oud world is how over-romanticised distillation is.
The bottom line is that pure oud, as I believe the majority of us see it and seek it, is an essential oil (and if it is not a 100% pure essential oil, that really needs to be stated).
So to forego all analogies, how would you source a lavender essential oil?
As a natural perfumer and someone who uses essential oils in their therapeutic capacity I'm sure you have certain demands regarding the details of any essential oil you source.
I'm sure that you'd like to know whether the feedstock is lavender from some random outback garden, or if it is organically high grown and hand picked in Provence, would you not? Perhaps you'd even seek a specific standard in the chemical makeup? Or a purity test?
I hardly think you set aside all the details and rely simply on the aroma and trust.
So, what are your informational demands when sourcing a new essential oil?
And why should we have any less demands when sourcing oud, as a pure essential oil?



I think the emphasis is on knowing what is actually going into the distilling pot.
And no, we are not just paying for the raw materials, I think that much is clear to most of us.
But on the other hand, the cost of the final product should be relative to the cost of the first material. Why should we be oblivious to the costs of the first materials?
To put forward a purely theoretical example: if the production costs per ml are 10$ and the final product is priced at 1000$ per ml, would that be fair? Shouldn't there be some balance to that equation? And why should we be completely in the dark with regard to production costs?



I completely sympathise with you on this point.
My own answer to that question would be along the lines of: "Well you are free to try and source the materials yourself and create your own version".
This, I believe, is where your painting analogy best applies; creating a perfume involves artistry, the canvas and paint on their own are of no value without the creativity of the perfumer to bring these elements into an artistic whole.

That being said, as you are a perfume industry insider, I'm sure you'd admit that the secrecy and lack of transparency in that industry is excessive.



That's a shame.
Secrecy to that level only does disservice to knowledge and progress.



And yet chefs do! They do it all the time, share to every minutiae!
Why? Because they know that as @peter4ptv says, not everybody is going to set up shop in their living rooms and kitchens and stop going out to restaurants.
Beside the details of the process, you still need the equipment, the ability to source everything, the right connections sometimes, the skill set to execute, the time and application to to actually get through the process...etc. When we are buying the final product, we are not just buying the first materials, but also all the effort and expertise aforementioned.

And regarding the fear of competition you and @F4R1d0uX mention, there will always be little trade secrets that might be omitted, but staying with the food analogy, I feel chef's have realised that they are not re-inventing the wheel, and they can not stop copy cats,
that the only way to stay ahead is to be the best when it comes to execution.

Maybe it is just me, but I find the true masters of their trade are always sharing and always progressing.



I agree, and get your gist and understand all your points.
But I'd like to make the clarification that I don't expect 100% of the information.

95% would be amazing.
Some producers share more than others, regardless of the product. If I'm getting stonewalled, I use @PEARL's strategy and walk away (unless the end product speaks volumes on its own),
if I find a producer that is more open, I'm more willing to stick around and discover.




Before publication, and you're still sharing, just selectively.
The secrecy here has an expiration date ;)



Definitely agree. But there is a big difference between spoon feeding and taking someone by the hand to assist or lead him through a process.
It is one thing to brush off people unwilling to do any of the leg work,
and another to limit one's help to simply saying: "Read that book, it has the answers".
The second form of help, especially when delivered with the typical attitude it typically comes with, really annoys me.




:handok::bowing:


Let's ask a painfully simple question in order to streamline...

What specific information do folks want included in the listings?

Bearing in mind that all answers may not be known, or able to be disclosed - what would folks like to know that isn't already being disclosed?

I would also like to point out...I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for myself - nearly all the details you mentioned so far are usually included in my listings. Jungle / country, year / time of year of distillation, species, quality of wood, etc.

I can never keep straight folks handle names and their actual names, so it's hard for me to connect if you bought any oils from me. Haha But I ask another simple question - do details really sell an oil? If they do...I imagine you would own all my distillations?

Food for thought :)
 

RisingPhoenix

Resident Artisan
This didn't actually happen but nonetheless carries my message...

One of my favorite places to shop is whole foods (that's actually true). One day I was there and standing in the herbal supplement isle, watching this lady read the label on some new organic, natural nutrient rich, green health enriching drink. She was talking to herself going over the ingredients in the drink, I was in earshot so I heard her. Spirulina, check; wheatgrass, check; chlorella, check; kelp, check; pre and probiotic complex, check; tincture of moose nutz; check; alfalfa leaf, ginger, amla berry, check check check. Around the same time, she was telling another shopper how great the drink was and all of it's benefits, all organic, and certainly better than that of any competitor; the other shopper vowed that she'd get one the next time she was there as she didn't have the $20 it cost this time. A few minutes later she happened to be in front of me in line and after checking out, sat at the table next to mine to enjoy a taste of her healthy, organic, ethically sourced beverage.

She uncaps and takes a big swallow, her face nearly turned as green as the drink as she exclaimed, "that is absolutely horrible"; she recapped the drink and dashed it in the rubbish bin.

Don't get me wrong, she was an informed consumer and I'm far from saying that one should not be informed, but you get the message.

Bingo!!! The magic isn't in the details - it's in the final product!!! ;)
 

peter4ptv

Member
No they are afraid other vendors/distillers get theirs to make it short and close it definitely since you all seem to not understand it :Roflmao::Roflmao::Roflmao::Roflmao:.
Oh, please is not rocket science. No body was asking distillation secrets.
Just trying to find out more about incense, sinking, resin converting to oil and etc............, why you need to go to all that trouble unwrapping the oil from resin than selling it as olerosin oil, another fantasy word in the oud business when you just can sale the high resinated chips and make a lot more, etc.......
Ouddicts are not asking for secrets, just some reasonable expectations.
Well it is time to buy a calculator everyone ;)
 

RisingPhoenix

Resident Artisan
One last thought...

The issue of providing every iota of information isn't about the consummers (although there seem to be an awful lot of consumers trying their hand at being vendors lately) - it's about putting information out in a place where tons of other people around the world are distilling or trying to distill, make Attars / macerations / products, etc.

These are public forums and an aweful lot of folks read them. It is in no business' best interest to broadcast what sets them apart from the masses.

As consumers - it's actually in your best interest that not everything is out in the open. If we have to Explain why that is - no amount of explanation will help grasping why.

Hope that comes across as positively as I meant it :)
 

F4R1d0uX

Resident Artisan
Oh, please is not rocket science. No body was asking distillation secrets.
Just trying to find out more about incense, sinking, resin converting to oil and etc............, why you need to go to all that trouble unwrapping the oil from resin than selling it as olerosin oil, another fantasy word in the oud business when you just can sale the high resinated chips and make a lot more, etc.......
Ouddicts are not asking for secrets, just some reasonable expectations.
Well it is time to buy a calculator everyone ;)

ok so job is done for me and I got you 100%, and I'm sure some will remember who warned about this nonsense first, I felt myself alone, maybe real masters were busy cooking steaks :Roflmao: !

I can never keep straight folks handle names and their actual names, so it's hard for me to connect if you bought any oils from me. Haha But I ask another simple question - do details really sell an oil? If they do...I imagine you would own all my distillations?

JK's on fire :Roflmao: , I agree with this 1x10 9999999

Crazy explanations came when it was needed to justify crazy prices, I don't apply crazy prices so I have no need to get headache :Devilish: !
 

Al Shareef Oudh

Master Perfumer
@all vendors + consumers

Apologies for the delayed contribution.

Everyone is making valid points from their perspective and behind the lenses that we sit ultimately will impact how and what we see. We all do not see the same things, or see them the same way.

The questions posed by the OP makes a lot of sense if one was to place themselves into @Rasoul Salehi shoes.

I think the discussion should be beyond just yield, but also efficiency and openness as a community to different approaches, possibilities and ideas. I am personally very pleased to see Rasoul reach this point in his journey where he is questioning what is now either in his collection or about to form part of his collection of oudhs and I don't think he should stop asking or demand answers to those WTH is going on here scenarios he is facing...

As a perfumer-distiller that is what we encourage, a informed consumer is liberated from the marketing mist and empowered by their knowledge to hopefully make better choices and I have to agree with @Alkhadra and @Taha, consumers are responsible for their own imaginations. A vendors videos or pictures those are just snaps in time, possibly a glimpse of what the vendor wishes to share, from a part of a match bigger picture, and those images requires a lot of processing and filtering before you can allow it to form part of the inventory of information in your mind.

Informed consumers are also beneficial for the overall direction the market takes. The positive changes we see today in the online oudh scene isn't just a result of more vendors on the scene, but rather the demand and push by consumers for better prices, more variety, better quality accompanied with more fact based information and knowledge. As the drive from consumers continues (to whichever direction consumers wish to take) the oudh scene will head that way.

Back to the point about efficiency, here is a couple of things we do that will change how you might want to crunch your numbers once you go for those calculators. I can't speak for other vendors but as perfumer-distillers who pretty much run end to end operations there is more to the scenario than raw material divided by mls of oil, well at least for us anyway, and there is no reason why this cant be the case for others;

The oil isn't the only product from a distillation, especially a high end distillation. The spent matter is still very valuable post distillation. Whilst some of the oils come out of the wood during distillation, there is a lot that doesn't. On top of the remaining oils, most the resin is also intact. The spent matter can then go through further extraction either by solvent, microwave, c02 or other methods. The products from these extraction also has value. I recall earlier in this discussion someone mentioning rose. If we could take that example in Bulgaria and Turkey for example after the rose is hydro-distilled and the otto is collected. The spent matter is then solvent extracted into what is known as 'concrete' due to the solid nature of the product. These are stored in drums and when orders are received the drums are chemically processed into an oil. These oils resemble rose more than the otto both in colour and smell. The point is, it is a second product from the same raw material over which the initial cost of material can be distributed.

Secondly, it is no secret that hydro-steam distillation are at the bottom of the ladder when it comes to efficiency. There are other methods that are much more efficient and extract more of the oil from the woods. We did some work with the University of Western Australia in the mid 2000's using microwave to extract oils from sandalwood. The results were fantastic and the yield was upt0 6 times greater than hydro-steam. Is our oudh community open to such ideas, new ways? Lam'ah the great success and amazing oil that it is, would not have been possible had we not employed extraction methods together with the distillation method.

When we broaden the discussion to these other possibilities we can find answers to some of the questions the OP raised, but there are others that these examples wont explain and for those consumers should continue asking...I agree with @powdernose we can't allow shyness or fear of disrupting the status quo to hinder the sincere inquiry into these things.
 

Rai Munir

Musk Man
Secondly, it is no secret that hydro-steam distillation are at the bottom of the ladder when it comes to efficiency. There are other methods that are much more efficient and extract more of the oil from the woods. We did some work with the University of Western Australia in the mid 2000's using microwave to extract oils from sandalwood. The results were fantastic and the yield was upt0 6 times greater than hydro-steam. Is our oudh community open to such ideas, new ways? Lam'ah the great success and amazing oil that it is, would not have been possible had we not employed extraction methods together with the distillation method.
This is what was the first orbit of the thread. A pertinent answer to some queries that emerge naturally if the forum is not unidirectional. Thanks a lot respected Al Shareef Oudh.

I recall earlier in this discussion someone mentioning rose. If we could take that example in Bulgaria and Turkey for example after the rose is hydro-distilled and the otto is collected. The spent matter is then solvent extracted into what is known as 'concrete' due to the solid nature of the product. These are stored in drums and when orders are received the drums are chemically processed into an oil. These oils resemble rose more than the otto both in colour and smell. The point is, it is a second product from the same raw material over which the initial cost of material can be distributed.
Jazakumullah. It was I who humbly requested to answer if somebody is blessed with knowledge and has endeavored to have information as well. What I got from this part of the post is: Chemicals are used when the remains of the distilled petals are to be processed. It is Rose oil/ extract/ absolute, but of second rate.
 
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F4R1d0uX

Resident Artisan
Jazakumullah. It was I who humbly requested to answer if somebody is blessed with knowledge and has endeavored to have information as well. What I got from this part of the post is: Chemicals are used when the remains of the distilled petals are to be processed. It is Rose oil/ extract/ absolute, but of second rate.
Sorry most respected brother @Rai Munir I thought you were asking about chemicals to cure the rose oil at the end of hydro (or steam) distillation process of the rose otto.

If you were talking about concrete, I would have answered you yes : solvent extraction with hexane ethanol.
Excuse me I think I really need to improve my english.
 
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