Grega

True Ouddict
:Cry::(:handok:;)

It is all about sharing the way O/AOTD/N is:Roflmao:. Otherwise, none is bound to answer. Freedom of choice .

I have come to know that, in Europe, if any product causes some harm and some precautionary measure had not been mentioned by the brand, the brand can be sued:p. Just heard. You can SHARE the reality because you live there. Though I am not entitled to ask, out of brotherhood I am making a request. :praying:
:p:Roflmao:
As far as I know there are many regulations and certificates that one has to get to be able to sell his products. Some are there to protect the consumer, most however have been done by different lobbies that either want to have less competition from smaller businesses who simply can't afford to get these certificates and to keep up with the bureocracy or they have a specific service/product that they want to sell and camouflage their business interest with "concern for health, safety, environmental friendliness".
By law you can't write health benefits of herbs/natural remedies/teas when you sell them (in my country not in EU)...funny for a country where half the people are heavily into natural remedies, picking wild flowers and making teas out of them...

Public forums in my parts and media are toxic in this regard, sensationalising and polarising such topics and taking isolated cases to make general statements in the name of "care for the people".
 
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peter4ptv

Member
@Grega i am not sure how this applays to this discussion

<<<<<<<<<<What I know is that if I was in any business where I would have to explain every action and every method to the consumer of my product and to explain how the product came to be... then I would quit. Better that then to be questioned over every step of doing what you love>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I hope you understand that this is not a reastaurant, stakehouse or any other business
This is oud forum one of the many purposes of the forum is to get together users and producers to talk about oud.
And every aspect of oud to be discussed, as far as understand this was create as an open forum and any questions about oud will not offense anybody.
By the “tone” (as you like to put it) of your replays looks like you have been very frustrating about this discussion.
 

Ouddict

Ouddict Co-Founder & Tech Support
@Grega i am not sure how this applays to this discussion

<<<<<<<<<<What I know is that if I was in any business where I would have to explain every action and every method to the consumer of my product and to explain how the product came to be... then I would quit. Better that then to be questioned over every step of doing what you love>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I hope you understand that this is not a reastaurant, stakehouse or any other business
This is oud forum one of the many purposes of the forum is to get together users and producers to talk about oud.
And every aspect of oud to be discussed, as far as understand this was create as an open forum and any questions about oud will not offense anybody.
By the “tone” (as you like to put it) of your replays looks like you have been very frustrating about this discussion.


To be honest, I’ve already wondered why every Oud vendor is put on the spotlight in the way they are. Just because one or two took advantage, doesn’t give everyone the right to demand every minutiae of detail into what happens behind the scenes.

If vendors choose to share information, that’s great and people should be under no illusion that the openness and transparency that exists here is almost unparalleled in the general perfumery industry. I remember reading that on average, for every $100 perfume out there, around $2-3 I was actually spent on the liquid perfume itself. I don’t see perfume enthusiasts interrogating brands and perfume houses to the extent I see with Oud and with Oud, you are getting a product that has intrinsic value.
 

powdernose

Oud Sprite
Apologies if you feel you are being drilled, I was just curious from your comment 'I wouldn't; not without chemical testing to prove it free of toxins and allergens." It seems odd that if you knew the process had been tweaked beyond the natural that you would have it tested but if the process is unknown then you wouldn't. Also curious if any members have had their oud tested. Is ignorance bliss or do we trust?

No it is not odd.
I was addressing a specific production method. With regard to pyrolysis, there is a reasonable probability that you'd get byproducts that are not skin safe. Further, the onus is on the provider to provide me with a safe material, so I'd expect them to assume the task of testing the product's safety.
Products of destructive distillation, I believe, are usually further processed with rectification. So that involves testing, processing, and testing further.

Regarding my own oils, I assume them to be products of water or steam distillation as stated, and I've not had reasons to doubt that. Any way we swing this, one can't escape some reliance on trust. If I did have reasonable doubts, I'd probably stop association with the producer before reaching the point of confirming so with testing.
If I had unlimited means would I test all oils? Yes, I would. I actually think producers should test the oils as part of the service. An odd GC test per production batch is not such a great cost that it it can't be assimilated into the total production cost.

I'd also like to reiterate a point that didn't seem to come across.
Method of production is very important to certain users. Do aromatherapists use absolutes? No, because they don't want solvent processed oils.
If a producer supplies an oil to an aromatherapist that he claims is purely a hydro-distilled essential oil, yet doesn't disclose that solvent processing was also used in the process, how wrong is that?
I believe in a level of disclosure which protects all users.
 

powdernose

Oud Sprite
Everyone is making valid points from their perspective and behind the lenses that we sit ultimately will impact how and what we see. We all do not see the same things, or see them the same way.
As a perfumer-distiller that is what we encourage, a informed consumer is liberated from the marketing mist and empowered by their knowledge to hopefully make better choices

Thanks for contributing @Al Shareef Oudh.
It is true there are different perspectives at play.
I think this forum is a good place for all these various perspectives to gain voice.

and I have to agree with @Alkhadra and @Taha, consumers are responsible for their own imaginations. A vendors videos or pictures those are just snaps in time

Up to a point sure.
However, if a picture or description is specifically suggestive of something, and your average consumer lacks the fact based knowledge required to properly process the suggestion, is his imagination at fault?

Informed consumers are also beneficial for the overall direction the market takes. The positive changes we see today in the online oudh scene isn't just a result of more vendors on the scene, but rather the demand and push by consumers for better prices, more variety, better quality accompanied with more fact based information and knowledge. As the drive from consumers continues (to whichever direction consumers wish to take) the oudh scene will head that way.

I'm glad to see you take that view. :handok:

The oil isn't the only product from a distillation, especially a high end distillation. The spent matter is still very valuable post distillation.

I'd forgotten that point. Thanks for the reminder.
Do you Co2 exctract spent matter? And what do you use this for?

As we've touched on the matter of feedstock, I recently posed a question regarding the pricing of shavings.
What dictates their price? What is the market for them? Obviously artisan distillers,
and I'm pretty sure incense makers (top quality only?),
Who else buys shavings?

If we could take that example in Bulgaria and Turkey for example after the rose is hydro-distilled and the otto is collected. The spent matter is then solvent extracted into what is known as 'concrete' due to the solid nature of the product.

A rose concrete/absolute should be created from fresh flowers.
If a secondary extraction of spent otto distillation is being sold without it being stated as such and at the price of a fresh flower extract, I'd suggest many things have gone wrong.

I think the discussion should be beyond just yield, but also efficiency and openness as a community to different approaches, possibilities and ideas.
it is no secret that hydro-steam distillation are at the bottom of the ladder when it comes to efficiency. There are other methods that are much more efficient and extract more of the oil from the woods. We did some work with the University of Western Australia in the mid 2000's using microwave to extract oils from sandalwood. The results were fantastic and the yield was upt0 6 times greater than hydro-steam. Is our oudh community open to such ideas, new ways?

I'm open to new methods. Or at least experimentation.
I've only seen mention of small scale experiments or applications of microwave assisted hydro-distillation extract,
are people doing larger scale applications?
Did you get to do a trial of microwave extraction on agarwood? What are your thoughts?

I'd only say, yet again, that I believe in full disclosure with regard to the use of alternative methods.
For example, it is possible there will be users that don't wish to consume microwaved products, and they have the right to know if something was microwaved, so they may be able to choose not to consume it.

Lam'ah the great success and amazing oil that it is, would not have been possible had we not employed extraction methods together with the distillation method.

That sounds like a fascintating oil. I hope to one day try it.
What I like about the product description of Lam'ah, is that you clearly state that three different extraction methods were used. That is the kind of transparency I appreciate.

When we broaden the discussion to these other possibilities we can find answers to some of the questions the OP raised, but there are others that these examples wont explain and for those consumers should continue asking...I agree with @powdernose we can't allow shyness or fear of disrupting the status quo to hinder the sincere inquiry into these things.

Well said!


Regarding questions I have one of my own. Is it possible that certain oud oils that are cheaper can smell better to many people than some pricier ones?

I'm happy to see someone else posting a question.
I'd love to see more questions from others.


Sorry guys I am giving up the secret to barnyard oud.
It seems like there is a decent question somewhere there. Why don't you ask it? :)
 

peter4ptv

Member
To be honest, I’ve already wondered why every Oud vendor is put on the spotlight in the way they are. Just because one or two took advantage, doesn’t give everyone the right to demand every minutiae of detail into what happens behind the scenes.

If vendors choose to share information, that’s great and people should be under no illusion that the openness and transparency that exists here is almost unparalleled in the general perfumery industry. I remember reading that on average, for every $100 perfume out there, around $2-3 I was actually spent on the liquid perfume itself. I don’t see perfume enthusiasts interrogating brands and perfume houses to the extent I see with Oud and with Oud, you are getting a product that has intrinsic value.
As far as I recal you invite the vendors if they have anything to add to this discussion, nobody was pointing anyone with demands to share secrets.
Come on, you are long enough participant of oud forums and very well know that oud distillations are very hot topics and to compare to general perfume industry is an bad example
 
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Grega

True Ouddict
@Grega i am not sure how this applays to this discussion

<<<<<<<<<<What I know is that if I was in any business where I would have to explain every action and every method to the consumer of my product and to explain how the product came to be... then I would quit. Better that then to be questioned over every step of doing what you love>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I hope you understand that this is not a reastaurant, stakehouse or any other business
This is oud forum one of the many purposes of the forum is to get together users and producers to talk about oud.
And every aspect of oud to be discussed, as far as understand this was create as an open forum and any questions about oud will not offense anybody.
By the “tone” (as you like to put it) of your replays looks like you have been very frustrating about this discussion.
Mild frustration at some points in the arguments, like the point that in fine restaurants it is expected that chefs tell everything to customers. That is weird to me...but analogies are bound to be misunderstood because each of us can focus on a particular aspect of the mental image when another was meant to be the focus by the one making it. The discussion however is interesting to me like I said.
 

RisingPhoenix

Resident Artisan
Just some general comments...

These kinds of conversations always tend to derail and some on both sides feel like they end up being attacked. I hope all realize that although some tongue in check comments are occasionally made - ultimately we are all here to learn and build community.

So - I pose a question that has me wondering after some comments...

Do details really sell oil?

I ask because I was commended on my details and then told that they don't buy from me. Apparently - people don't really buy details as the claim seems to be.

So - what does make a person buy?

Sometimes I feel like the topic being discussed isn't really the topic being discussed. If details are what really sold oils - I feel like people would be buying oils across the board. It seems more like people buy BS claims rather than real information. If they did buy real information ... I'd be rolling in cash instead of stocks of oils :Roflmao:

See...tongue in check comment :) But my question is sincere. Instead of asking general questions and getting insufficient answers - maybe it we could try asking specific questions of specific people. I still can't grasp what @powdernose actually wants to know, or from whom. Can we just be straight and ask the question of the specific person?

I thought this line of questions was for all the vendors, but now it's feeling like it's a question for just one or two of the vendors. Can we be a little more specific so that we can avoid anything that might sound like hostility or defensiveness, and we can get back on track to asking and answering actual queries? :)

Oh - and to respond to the GC question - GC's don't sell oils. That's why people don't do them. Extra cost with no reward. Unless you're telling me that people actually buy based on information. In that case, ill run some GC's now and expect to be sold out of everything next week. :cool:

Which brings me back to - details don't really sell oils. I really am curious what does...?
 

peter4ptv

Member
Just some general comments...

These kinds of conversations always tend to derail and some on both sides feel like they end up being attacked. I hope all realize that although some tongue in check comments are occasionally made - ultimately we are all here to learn and build community.

So - I pose a question that has me wondering after some comments...

Do details really sell oil?

I ask because I was commended on my details and then told that they don't buy from me. Apparently - people don't really buy details as the claim seems to be.

So - what does make a person buy?

Sometimes I feel like the topic being discussed isn't really the topic being discussed. If details are what really sold oils - I feel like people would be buying oils across the board. It seems more like people buy BS claims rather than real information. If they did buy real information ... I'd be rolling in cash instead of stocks of oils :Roflmao:

See...tongue in check comment :) But my question is sincere. Instead of asking general questions and getting insufficient answers - maybe it we could try asking specific questions of specific people. I still can't grasp what @powdernose actually wants to know, or from whom. Can we just be straight and ask the question of the specific person?

I thought this line of questions was for all the vendors, but now it's feeling like it's a question for just one or two of the vendors. Can we be a little more specific so that we can avoid anything that might sound like hostility or defensiveness, and we can get back on track to asking and answering actual queries? :)

Oh - and to respond to the GC question - GC's don't sell oils. That's why people don't do them. Extra cost with no reward. Unless you're telling me that people actually buy based on information. In that case, ill run some GC's now and expect to be sold out of everything next week. :cool:

Which brings me back to - details don't really sell oils. I really am curious what does...?

I think @powdernose did ask a specific question at a specific person, just the way you like to be addressed
But did not get any answer

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<"from 40-year old, resin-dense plantation trees. "
What does that mean>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

As far I understand he is not asking for distillation secrets here, or does he?
 

RisingPhoenix

Resident Artisan
I think @powdernose did ask a specific question at a specific person, just the way you like to be addressed
But did not get any answer

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<"from 40-year old, resin-dense plantation trees. "
What does that mean>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

As far I understand he is not asking for distillation secrets here, or does he?

The oil was distilled from 40 year old, Resin dense plantation trees.

I will ask for further clarification - what was unclear about that? I have the age of the tree and that it was distilled from Resin dense wood from those trees.

What was unclear about the statement? Truly - I'm asking. Was that ambiguous to anyone else??
 

peter4ptv

Member
Mild frustration at some points in the arguments, like the point that in fine restaurants it is expected that chefs tell everything to customers. That is weird to me...but analogies are bound to be misunderstood because each of us can focus on a particular aspect of the mental image when another was meant to be the focus by the one making it. The discussion however is interesting to me like I said.
Looks like a lot of people are comparing oud with restaurants, the OP @Rasoul Salehi already axplained very well about the stakes and oud he was not asking the deepest secrets of chefs and distillers, but there some thinks he likes to know before eating his fine steak.
 
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Grega

True Ouddict
The oil was distilled from 40 year old, Resin dense plantation trees.

I will ask for further clarification - what was unclear about that? I have the age of the tree and that it was distilled from Resin dense wood from those trees.

What was unclear about the statement? Truly - I'm asking. Was that ambiguous to anyone else??
Yep my chef analogy post applies here. Sorry guys but I am out of this discussion.
 

Grega

True Ouddict
Oh and my post about "the tone of some posts" was specifically about those posts grinding JK
 

MzM

Oud King
To be honest, I’ve already wondered why every Oud vendor is put on the spotlight in the way they are. Just because one or two took advantage, doesn’t give everyone the right to demand every minutiae of detail into what happens behind the scenes.

If vendors choose to share information, that’s great and people should be under no illusion that the openness and transparency that exists here is almost unparalleled in the general perfumery industry. I remember reading that on average, for every $100 perfume out there, around $2-3 I was actually spent on the liquid perfume itself. I don’t see perfume enthusiasts interrogating brands and perfume houses to the extent I see with Oud and with Oud, you are getting a product that has intrinsic value.
Generally speaking :I think people have the right to ask and Vendors have the right to refuse to answer or ignore the question. Then it's up to the consumers to take that refusal to answer which way they want. I have bought from Ensar, Imperial, JK, Alkhadra, Alshareef and not once have any of them refused to answer any question of mine so ofcourse it's a symbiotic relationship. If I asked two vendors and got my answer and was satisfied with one vendor and not the other then it's a no brainier who I am more likely to buy from if we were to assume both sold same quality products.
 

RisingPhoenix

Resident Artisan
Oh and my post about "the tone of some posts" was specifically about those posts grinding JK

I appreciate the shield - but it's not necessary. :Inlove:

Animosity in here runs high sometimes and I promise folks aren't gonna hurt my feelings. :)

I know that sometimes my own tone comes off wrong, but it's truly not the intent. The goal here is to educate. I think we all enjoy learning and I appreciate everyone's desire to consume the knowledge we all impart to one another. Lord knows I, myself, am still learning every day.

At times I think we get off topic. At other times I think we are talking about something different from what we are really talking about. I think this was one of those times.

It's why I asked - do details really sell oils? Personally, I don't think so. People buy flashy websites, slick marketing, and a heavy dollop of BS. Just an observation and my opinion - but if folks were really buying details...well, you'd all know what I'm talking about then with your shelves full of Rising phoenix products ;)

Working in Chinese Medicine as I do, there is a cultural difference I've made between Eastern and Western folks in general.

In the West - people want to understand every iota of information before they are even willing to try something. As a physician I see this kind of mentality get in the way of a lot of people's health and their recovery of it.

In the East - there is a general mentality that Understanding comes through Doing. If one wishes to Understand - then Do. The understanding will come through the doing.

I see this cultural difference play out all the time in my clinic. Patients come in and can be very combative against what they are told because they don't understand what's being said, even after additional explanations. I see this cultural difference play out all the time in my clinic. It's because they don't understand what's being said, and unfortunately sometimes there's no way to understand what's being said without a tremendous amount of education and context. And that comes with Time - and with Doing. These are the patients that tend not to get better, because they get in their own way. They refuse to simply get better despite not understanding because they won't Do until they Understand. It's a sad cycle.

There's a lot of things that I say as a physician working in a foreign medicine that people may not understand - and usually to their amazement, when they go home and put into practice what I say they find that they begin to understand what I'm saying. These are also the patients that recover their health at often astounding rates of recovery.

I understand that folks want to understand what it is that we vendors are doing and how it impacts the final product. I also frequently see that people overthink the shit out of things and it gets in their way of being able to enjoy something. They can't just sit down and eat a nice meal at that restaurant we keep talking about without sticking their head up the cow's ass to see the T-bone (thank you Chris Farley). They can't take the Butcher's word or experience.

Which leads us to the other slice of this dilemma - Unrealistic Expectations. This is another issue I have to deal with a lot in the clinic. I don't think I need to explain this one… I think we can all understand that unrealistic expectations placed upon the vendors get in the way of enjoying that steak ;)

I am still of the opinion that details don't really sell oils. Frivolous bullshit is usually what sells stuff, as is evidenced by Sai Yud still being one of my overlooked gems and in stock after all this messaging today ;)

Stay frosty folks :)
 
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MzM

Oud King
Just some general comments...

These kinds of conversations always tend to derail and some on both sides feel like they end up being attacked. I hope all realize that although some tongue in check comments are occasionally made - ultimately we are all here to learn and build community.

So - I pose a question that has me wondering after some comments...

Do details really sell oil?

I ask because I was commended on my details and then told that they don't buy from me. Apparently - people don't really buy details as the claim seems to be.

So - what does make a person buy?

Sometimes I feel like the topic being discussed isn't really the topic being discussed. If details are what really sold oils - I feel like people would be buying oils across the board. It seems more like people buy BS claims rather than real information. If they did buy real information ... I'd be rolling in cash instead of stocks of oils :Roflmao:

See...tongue in check comment :) But my question is sincere. Instead of asking general questions and getting insufficient answers - maybe it we could try asking specific questions of specific people. I still can't grasp what @powdernose actually wants to know, or from whom. Can we just be straight and ask the question of the specific person?

I thought this line of questions was for all the vendors, but now it's feeling like it's a question for just one or two of the vendors. Can we be a little more specific so that we can avoid anything that might sound like hostility or defensiveness, and we can get back on track to asking and answering actual queries? :)

Oh - and to respond to the GC question - GC's don't sell oils. That's why people don't do them. Extra cost with no reward. Unless you're telling me that people actually buy based on information. In that case, ill run some GC's now and expect to be sold out of everything next week. :cool:

Which brings me back to - details don't really sell oils. I really am curious what does...?
I'll take a swipe at this question:
"Do details really sell oil?"

I think it depends at what stage of the Oud journey one is in. When I was a newbie and had no point of reference, the write ups about different oils were what I went by, the scent description etc. I soon realized that people have different scent perception based on their experiences with scents. So I said I have to sample oils and then was interested in minor details like age of tree, age of infection, grade of wood .... plainly from an educational sense to educate myself and associate what I am smelling with some data or facts about the tree etc to enable me to make certain evaluations about oils going forward. I was least interested in distillation method because I knew neither head or tail of it. I wouldn't mind learning them ofcourse as and when Vendors are willing to share as it's always interesting to learn more about the thing you love...and I would say the main critera would be does it affect the end result...which is and always will be the scent for me.

Just my little blurb. : )
 

Ouddict

Ouddict Co-Founder & Tech Support
Generally speaking :I think people have the right to ask and Vendors have the right to refuse to answer or ignore the question. Then it's up to the consumers to take that refusal to answer which way they want. I have bought from Ensar, Imperial, JK, Alkhadra, Alshareef and not once have any of them refused to answer any question of mine so ofcourse it's a symbiotic relationship. If I asked two vendors and got my answer and was satisfied with one vendor and not the other then it's a no brainier who I am more likely to buy from if we were to assume both sold same quality products.

Sure and I concur with that. It's just that I have sensed "entitlement" bordering on demand for certain information that is either proprietary or business-critical and customers should not expect vendors to spill the beans regarding everything they do. It puts them under pressure and they sometimes come out with partial details or worse which helps no one.
 

powdernose

Oud Sprite
Mild frustration at some points in the arguments, like the point that in fine restaurants it is expected that chefs tell everything to customers.

Nobody ever said that. You misread.
The basic point was, that whatever restaurant you go to, you will get an ingredient list and the basic process.
The other point was that some chefs are willing to share most of their secrets and that it doesn't have a negative impact on their livelihood.

Nobody is demanding anything.


@RisingPhoenix it seems people think we are at battle simply because we have been the most active participants here. That is not my intention.
I am really busy right now though, so I can't get into a long post addressing all of what you said. And maybe it is best others take queue in any case, and answer your questions.
I'll just quickly address this:
Instead of asking general questions and getting insufficient answers - maybe it we could try asking specific questions of specific people. I still can't grasp what @powdernose actually wants to know, or from whom. Can we just be straight and ask the question of the specific person?

As I said before I was addressing the status quo.
I've also stated what information I look for and consider basic (more than twice), and congratulations for providing most of these details.
Further you invited specific questions, and as @peter4ptv said, I provided one. I looked at one of your listings after the invitation and asked a question.
Apologies if it was not clear, I thought context was enough to make it clear.
What I meant was:
Were whole trees used? Surrounding white wood too? How much white wood relatively?
What does resin dense mean? If they were carved for incense chips, what grade chips would the trees yield? What would you say the weight ratio of resinated wood to oil grade wood to white wood would be that went into the pot? What constitutes "wild stock" from a plantation? Are the trees chemically inoculated?

I elucidate only for example. Please ignore my questions.

There was another specific question too, @Rasoul asked one.
If you wanted, you could have tackled that one.

No one is forcing anyone to come in and provide these answers. If you don't want to, don't.
I thought this was about open discussion.
 

Abdullah

Junior Member
@PEARL and everyone else
Please accept my sincerest apologies for the late reply. I won’t bore you all with the details but just super duper busy.

@Rasoul Salehi

1)
https://www.kyarazen.com/age-agarwood-tree/#

I believe this will be very helpful to your question.

2)
I would just like to clarify that I didn’t meant getting 2% yield per kg was impossible but most people would not be able to correctly achieve it or achieve it at all.

Our yield for Shah Jahan was 1.67% and for Bahadur was 1.69% per kg respectively. It would have been a bit higher but the person who I rented the equipment from suddenly wanted it back right there and then. No amount of money or negotiation (something I pride myself on, lol) worked. So we had to cut the distillation slightly short.

To my knowledge the person whose equipment (and his relatives and friends) I rented, have tried to recreate bahadur and shah jahan 4 times already and there is currently a 5th attempt being made. Each time their yield has been just above 0.03% and the scent has been totally totally different.

I do not say this to boast, the point I am trying to make is that they saw me do nearly everything from start to finish. From changing their setup slightly, to putting the wood in the pots. Yet they have been unable to re-create. Imo they were not focused enough and didn’t pay attention to the details.

Little tweaks and the ability to predict the outcome to a certain degree, come with experience. I would encourage you to conduct some of your own distillations; it is not hard at all. I know people who have distilled on their gas cooker at home, on their bbq and on many other heating mediums, using cooking pots and everything in between. I have myself used the glass lid of the cooking pot as a condenser in one of my experiments and it has worked. As I previously mentioned in another post, my favourite way to learn is to do it myself/to experiment. I encourage you to try it. The knowledge you gain will be very satisfying.

3)
The wood you have, was picked randomly and the only criteria was that it smelled good. A very small bit from each piece was tested before being offered up for sale.

Yes there is a whole other market for wood that has already been distilled. I know people in china and Thailand who only sell post-distillation wood, for making jewellery, incense and many other things. If incense sticks are being made, then a lot of other things will be added to it, depending on who purchases it, to make sure the stick does not go out and the burn is even etc. There is even a big market for the white wood of tree that are chopped. Nothing is “wasted”.

In Assam (using this example again as it is the most recent), once the oil has been removed to the distillers satisfaction, the wood is super heated and whatever comes out like the waxes etc, is sold to some of the big perfume houses to make attars and alcohol based perfumes, cosmetic companies and whoever else wants to buy. The wood is sold to incense companies amongst others.

4)
I think everyone is fully within their right to ask as many questions as they want or feel need answering. Some people will answer everything you ask. Some people will give you half answers and some people will just shut you down. When I first decided to conduct my own distillations to see how the oud that had been used in generations of our family comes to be, I, like you, asked many questions and was shut down by nearly everyone most of the time, so I did my own re-search, experiments, went on courses, talked to academics etc and tried to build upon what I was learning little by little. Learning new things and seeing the fruit of that knowledge will be immensely satisfying for you. Like you said, asking the question and getting the answers that lead to more questions is the most fun bit. LOL

@Rai Munir
I think it depends on the distiller. Once a distillation is “completed” and oil collected, it will be separated from the water. Then to “dry/cure” it, it will be left naturally or a chemical/compound will be introduced into the oil to speed up the process and then removed/separated. The resulting post-distillate from that distillation will be further processed to extract anything else that is left over. Even the water from the distillation will be sold.

Please see example below of something I tried back in 2009 to check the scent of different extraction methods on rose oils:



exp6.jpg


From left to right

1) Rose Otto steam distilled (clear)
2) Rose Oil Hydro Distilled (slight yellowy tinge)
3) Absolute method 1 (oil had a stronger yellow tinge)
4) Absolute method 2 (oil was more viscous, half solid and clear)
5) Absolute method 3 (clear)
6) Rose Concrete (fully solidifies)


@tyson
I tip my hat to you sir (said with affection)


@PEARL
An issue is that the data source is often the one who manipulates, twists, and turns it to sell, but you decide which oil is hot or not; not the distiller, story or pot.

Agree with you totally.

@Grega
Regarding questions I have one of my own. Is it possible that certain oud oils that are cheaper can smell better to many people than some pricier ones?

IMO you are right and technique/method does play a part.



@Taha
you are a man after my own heart. Good to see you back. Your picture showing different results inspired me to go and dig out some of my own old experiments from back in the days:

I hope people find it interesting


exp2.jpg


From left to right, cultivated Vietnamese wood all parameters same other than those stated: zero soak stainless steel pot, zero soak copper pot, soaked ss pot, soaked copper pot. The aluminium bottles are lined.



exp1.jpg


From left to right, Wild Malaysian Wood – full ss setup, full copper setup, full glass setup, ss pot glass condenser, copper pot glass condenser, all three glass ss & copper pots being collected using glass condenser while temperature is being gradually increased, all three glass ss & copper pots being collected using glass condenser while temperature is being gradually decreased.


exp4.jpg



From left to right, wild thai wood – each time the soak.temp.size was changed



exp3.jpg


Studying the effects of oud oil(cambodi plantation cheap but ok smelling)left in various intensities of direct sunlight + direct UV Lamp.


exp5.jpg



These are some of the notes I have taken over the years. I absolutely love taking notes.

Most of the questions that have been asked on here have now been answered I feel. A bit by one member and another bit by another member and so on. Just put everything together and you will have an answer that could lead to so many more questions. That is the fun bit. ;-)
 

Ouddict

Ouddict Co-Founder & Tech Support
@PEARL and everyone else
Please accept my sincerest apologies for the late reply. I won’t bore you all with the details but just super duper busy.

@Rasoul Salehi

1)
https://www.kyarazen.com/age-agarwood-tree/#

I believe this will be very helpful to your question.

2)
I would just like to clarify that I didn’t meant getting 2% yield per kg was impossible but most people would not be able to correctly achieve it or achieve it at all.

Our yield for Shah Jahan was 1.67% and for Bahadur was 1.69% per kg respectively. It would have been a bit higher but the person who I rented the equipment from suddenly wanted it back right there and then. No amount of money or negotiation (something I pride myself on, lol) worked. So we had to cut the distillation slightly short.

To my knowledge the person whose equipment (and his relatives and friends) I rented, have tried to recreate bahadur and shah jahan 4 times already and there is currently a 5th attempt being made. Each time their yield has been just above 0.03% and the scent has been totally totally different.

I do not say this to boast, the point I am trying to make is that they saw me do nearly everything from start to finish. From changing their setup slightly, to putting the wood in the pots. Yet they have been unable to re-create. Imo they were not focused enough and didn’t pay attention to the details.

Little tweaks and the ability to predict the outcome to a certain degree, come with experience. I would encourage you to conduct some of your own distillations; it is not hard at all. I know people who have distilled on their gas cooker at home, on their bbq and on many other heating mediums, using cooking pots and everything in between. I have myself used the glass lid of the cooking pot as a condenser in one of my experiments and it has worked. As I previously mentioned in another post, my favourite way to learn is to do it myself/to experiment. I encourage you to try it. The knowledge you gain will be very satisfying.

3)
The wood you have, was picked randomly and the only criteria was that it smelled good. A very small bit from each piece was tested before being offered up for sale.

Yes there is a whole other market for wood that has already been distilled. I know people in china and Thailand who only sell post-distillation wood, for making jewellery, incense and many other things. If incense sticks are being made, then a lot of other things will be added to it, depending on who purchases it, to make sure the stick does not go out and the burn is even etc. There is even a big market for the white wood of tree that are chopped. Nothing is “wasted”.

In Assam (using this example again as it is the most recent), once the oil has been removed to the distillers satisfaction, the wood is super heated and whatever comes out like the waxes etc, is sold to some of the big perfume houses to make attars and alcohol based perfumes, cosmetic companies and whoever else wants to buy. The wood is sold to incense companies amongst others.

4)
I think everyone is fully within their right to ask as many questions as they want or feel need answering. Some people will answer everything you ask. Some people will give you half answers and some people will just shut you down. When I first decided to conduct my own distillations to see how the oud that had been used in generations of our family comes to be, I, like you, asked many questions and was shut down by nearly everyone most of the time, so I did my own re-search, experiments, went on courses, talked to academics etc and tried to build upon what I was learning little by little. Learning new things and seeing the fruit of that knowledge will be immensely satisfying for you. Like you said, asking the question and getting the answers that lead to more questions is the most fun bit. LOL

@Rai Munir
I think it depends on the distiller. Once a distillation is “completed” and oil collected, it will be separated from the water. Then to “dry/cure” it, it will be left naturally or a chemical/compound will be introduced into the oil to speed up the process and then removed/separated. The resulting post-distillate from that distillation will be further processed to extract anything else that is left over. Even the water from the distillation will be sold.

Please see example below of something I tried back in 2009 to check the scent of different extraction methods on rose oils:



View attachment 5147

From left to right

1) Rose Otto steam distilled (clear)
2) Rose Oil Hydro Distilled (slight yellowy tinge)
3) Absolute method 1 (oil had a stronger yellow tinge)
4) Absolute method 2 (oil was more viscous, half solid and clear)
5) Absolute method 3 (clear)
6) Rose Concrete (fully solidifies)


@tyson
I tip my hat to you sir (said with affection)


@PEARL
An issue is that the data source is often the one who manipulates, twists, and turns it to sell, but you decide which oil is hot or not; not the distiller, story or pot.

Agree with you totally.

@Grega
Regarding questions I have one of my own. Is it possible that certain oud oils that are cheaper can smell better to many people than some pricier ones?

IMO you are right and technique/method does play a part.



@Taha
you are a man after my own heart. Good to see you back. Your picture showing different results inspired me to go and dig out some of my own old experiments from back in the days:

I hope people find it interesting


View attachment 5151

From left to right, cultivated Vietnamese wood all parameters same other than those stated: zero soak stainless steel pot, zero soak copper pot, soaked ss pot, soaked copper pot. The aluminium bottles are lined.



View attachment 5152

From left to right, Wild Malaysian Wood – full ss setup, full copper setup, full glass setup, ss pot glass condenser, copper pot glass condenser, all three glass ss & copper pots being collected using glass condenser while temperature is being gradually increased, all three glass ss & copper pots being collected using glass condenser while temperature is being gradually decreased.


View attachment 5149


From left to right, wild thai wood – each time the soak.temp.size was changed



View attachment 5150

Studying the effects of oud oil(cambodi plantation cheap but ok smelling)left in various intensities of direct sunlight + direct UV Lamp.


View attachment 5148


These are some of the notes I have taken over the years. I absolutely love taking notes.

Most of the questions that have been asked on here have now been answered I feel. A bit by one member and another bit by another member and so on. Just put everything together and you will have an answer that could lead to so many more questions. That is the fun bit. ;-)


Sorry @Abdullah ... I'm sure it is a brilliant post, but I was too busy drooling over the photos of bottles. :Whistling:
 
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