Ouddict

Ouddict Co-Founder & Tech Support
How does one tell if an Oud Oil has been tampered with? How can you spot wood that is wild and differentiate it from the organic variety? Given the prices that this wonderful resource fetches, unfortunately, cheating is rife within the industry.

Is it humanely possible to discern the distillation method and region with the type of wood used solely through experience or are more objective methods needed?

Please note. ANY reply that mentions an Oud or Vendor in a negative light without objective (scientific) evidence e.g. a GC/MS test, to prove claims, will be removed and the member issued a first warning. This thread is NOT intended to generate attacks on vendors and their products, but ONLY to discuss ways for individuals to check what they buy.
 
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Al Shareef Oudh

Master Perfumer
Humans yearn for definite truths, yet they are not always possible to find. We want t0 be able to hold a piece of wood or an oil and with absolute certainty give our analysis. The reality is as with many things, such certainty does not exist by simply engaging our senses regardless of who you are.

We accept the fact that humans are not perfect, there are bits of that imperfection, the 'human element' in all the things that we do. When the human element is involved and in oudh, many elements influence the 'testing', from what you ate, to the weather, all of which can throw off the accuracy of a humans assessment. That being the case we then need to introduce some scientific testing aids, such as GC and GCMS etc to assist the nose. A persons experience and nose will help them go a long way in identifying if a oil is good quality or bad, pure or not pure. However it can't discern the exactness in quantity of adulterant, or other factors. Unfortunately there are people who claim that they are able to analyse down to a part in million, including who touched the oil. People who claim such, add to the fiction and hold the oudh community back from progressing towards objective.

Using our senses there are tips and pointers that one can look out for but they are not bullet proof. However combing the nose with scientific means does make the assessment much more bullet proof.

For a sensory assessment of an oil one can lookout for the following;
Colour - every oil has a natural colour, the natural colour of the oil is different to added colour. The difference being if the oil is applied to a piece of cotton then let 'dry' the adulterated colour will stand out on the cotton rather than spread like an oil stain.

Texture - is another of the physical signs if the oil has been adulterated. If the oil is sticky to the extent if rubbed between two fingers the fingers stick, this indicates interference in the oil. If the oil feels grainy like the feel of kerosene then that is a sign that those oils have been stretched.

Cotton Test - if you apply a dot on pure cotton and leave it for a few hours and return, this is the simplest way to pick up chemical adulterants, the adulterants will usually stay on the cotton as dominant non progressive scent. If the adulterant is another essential oil, then this will require a level of understanding of different scents from essential oils.

A good oudh can last on cotton for 3-4months and the scent will keep evolving.

water test - in a test tube if one part oudh oil and ten parts distilled water, then given a good shake, what should happen is the water should go milky-cloudy, then when rested and slightly warmed up the oil should split and rise to the top. If adulterants are in there they will remain in droplets when shaken. This test will require knowledge of type of extraction used, because if the oil has been extracted from resin, by cycling-fraction-multi-step etc, then resin will also behave in a similar manner i.e form droplets.
 

Ouddict

Ouddict Co-Founder & Tech Support
Shareef, your contribution to this thread is really worth a lot to all our members. Thank you for your superb insight and willingness to share your knowledge with everyone. It's posts like the above that inspired the creation of this forum.
 
Shareef, your contribution to this thread is really worth a lot to all our members. Thank you for your superb insight and willingness to share your knowledge with everyone. It's posts like the above that inspired the creation of this forum.
I agree
 

Habz786

Resident Artisan & Ouddict Co-Founder
What are the common Adulterants used in oil? Can one simply just by smelling pick these out? I highly doubt anyone can simply sniff out adulterants, do vendors who buy and resell oils have them tested before sold or just rely on their noses?
 

Faizal_p

Sulaym.co.uk
Screenshot_20161204-165610.jpg
The most common adulterant is dop -
DIOCTYLPHTHALATE and also Phthalic acid which is benzene dicarboxylic acid to give it is proper name. These are synthetic organic compounds which exhibit an earthy woody aroma which can easily fool a newbie. If you've smelt enough pure Oud then these compounds emit a slightly sharper note which isn't common in Oud and one can pick it out. There's also aetoxyln sempytalum, a very common cheap tree found in Indonesia. Some people actually call it white Oud. I bought some many years ago just to have it in my olfactory library. I think I've seen it for sale on hermitage oils too, quite inexpensive.
I'll need to dig out a gcms report we had done on a liquid which I found very suspect and it did indeed have a good amount of the phthalic acid in...

 
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B

bhanny

Guest
View attachment 170 The most common adulterant is dop -
DIOCTYLPHTHALATE and also Phthalic acid which is benzene dicarboxylic acid to give it is proper name. These are synthetic organic compounds which exhibit an earthy woody aroma which can easily fool a newbie. If you've smelt enough pure Oud then these compounds emit a slightly sharper note which isn't common in Oud and one can pick it out. There's also aetoxyln sempytalum, a very common cheap tree found in Indonesia. Some people actually call it white Oud. I bought some many years ago just to have it in my olfactory library. I think I've seen it for sale on hermitage oils too, quite inexpensive.
I'll need to dig out a gcms report we had done on a liquid which I found very suspect and it did indeed have a good amount of the phthalic acid in...
Wow. So this "oud" is 88% Phthalic acid? Is this a well known "oud"?
 

Faizal_p

Sulaym.co.uk
Brian, this is a malaysian "oud" which i was offered a while back. As soon as i smelled the stick i knew it wasn't pure. Anyways to cut a long story short we proceeded to conduct a gcms analysis, along with some other oils to see what exactly made this oil smell the way it did. In fact when i first started getting into Oud i bought many oils which have this profile, some from the middle east, some from vendors in the UK. Early 2000's the most easily accessible pure oud was only Hindi, given my heritage is Indian and my grandfather who would bring back oils from India. So the Oudh Cambodi which was the most sought after was sadly always laced with DOP.
Looking at the Oud scene now its quite amazing, theres no need to be fooled into buying any old crud. Theres so many vendors who you can trust who are offering great oils and no need to worry about them being pure. Wasted so much money in the early days :(... but i guess that was the impetus behind us setting up our company
 

Ouddict

Ouddict Co-Founder & Tech Support
Fascinating stuff... do you have the adulterated Oud for your records?
 

Mr.P

oud<3er
Turbulent times... I think it would be best to end this public dispute. I don't think this community has the capacity to resolve these differences of opinion, so further sparring is not going to be productive.

I would encourage you to edit / delete your posts and remove the personal attacks. Alternatively, an option is for me or another moderator to do this for you or to lock the thread.
 

jensz

Administrator
Staff member
Thank you, Mr.P. I was trying to formulate a similar response.

Update: After discussion with the parties involved in this dispute, some of the posts were edited and some were deleted. Thank you, gentlemen.
 
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Al Shareef Oudh

Master Perfumer
@Al Shareef Oudh NO. It's just an example of the contradictory content of post.
Post#135 the wood used was NOT naturally hollow, but manually removed.

And you maintain your position despite not seeing it in person, smelling, burning, touching or GCMS to get a truly objective consensus. As you stated, "people who claim such, add to the fiction and hold the oudh community back from progressing towards objective".

With woods there are certain give all signs, that I have discussed in great detail, with plenty of evidence, thorough detail, reference pictorials and more. This is different to someone sampling an oil and then giving a DNA level detail on it. With the wood example that was in discussion at that time, making the determination between wild and cultivated was very much possible based on photos because one was able to look for the signs of cultivation, inoculation behaviour (shape of resin formation), physical features of the wood to make a determination on the wood. My comment that you quoted out of context, is referring to a more complex situation when those information are not physically infront of one eyes. Such as someone smelling an oil and giving alpha and beta counts, ascertaining the exact location of where, how and when it was cooked, soaking apparatus, grade of wood ....those things are impossible because from the oil.
 

Ouddict

Ouddict Co-Founder & Tech Support
He's chosen to no longer be here, so there's no chance for him to further elaborate.

Which is a shame as these types of discussions are what add value to the forum. I did not follow the discussion closely, but unless there are OBVIOUS signs of trickery such as nail holes and perhaps resination pattern etc, I certainly cannot distinguish the status of a piece of wild wood from cultivated wood.

I think in cases where the evidence is subtle, both sides should err on the side of caution and avoid pronouncements that are absolutist in nature. It would be preferable to talk in balance of probabilities, as in these cases, without direct first-hand inspection, that's all you can do.
 

powdernose

Oud Sprite
This test will require knowledge of type of extraction used, because if the oil has been extracted from resin, by cycling-fraction-multi-step etc, then resin will also behave in a similar manner i.e form droplets.

What exactly do you mean by "cycling-fraction-multi-step etc" ?
And are such oils prevalent?

thanks
 

Al Shareef Oudh

Master Perfumer
What exactly do you mean by "cycling-fraction-multi-step etc" ?
And are such oils prevalent?

thanks

Hi Powdernose,

by cycling fraction we mean when the oil is distilled and then both the distilled oil and hydrosol is cycled back into the still and distilled again. The oil has more ability to breakdown the resin than does water, but less than does a solvent. Such oudh oils are not prevalent. It is an area we have been exploring for a while as higher quality stocks diminish we need to work out methods that extract/distill every last drop of oil from the wood. At the moment there is a lot of wastage/inefficiency in the distillation process.
 

powdernose

Oud Sprite
by cycling fraction we mean when the oil is distilled and then both the distilled oil and hydrosol is cycled back into the still and distilled again.

Hi,
thanks for the answer.

So like cohobation, but with the entire distillate cycling back into the pot, not just the hydrosol?
Continuously for a specific amount of time? Or reintroducing at set times for set x amount of cycles?
I've not come across this method before.
Have you got anything to read up on it?

I'd think putting the essential oil back into a hot pot again and again would lead to undesirable degradation.
No?
 

peter4ptv

Member
Hi,
thanks for the answer.

So like cohobation, but with the entire distillate cycling back into the pot, not just the hydrosol?
Continuously for a specific amount of time? Or reintroducing at set times for set x amount of cycles?
I've not come across this method before.
Have you got anything to read up on it?

I'd think putting the essential oil back into a hot pot again and again would lead to undesirable degradation.
No?
I don't know about oud, but distilling from plumbs rakia (homemade alcohol beverage) this way has excellent results.
 
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