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Cultivated Aquilaria Sinensis

Discussion in 'Agarwood' started by Mr.P, May 22, 2019.

  1. Mr.P

    Mr.P Evoloudtionary Bioudlogist

    so does anyone have information on cultivation of Aquilaria sinensis? Are any of these excellent Chinese oils being distilled from cultivated wood?

    I recall someone posting about “kyara trees” in a plantation and relatively low priced kyara from the farm. Could this be a sinensis plantation? Is this commonly cultivated?

    Thanks
     
    Hamza H likes this.
  2. Hamza H

    Hamza H Oud Fanatic

    There was a new member on the forum a few months ago based in China, he was European I think, but living in China and learning the agarwood trade there.

    Also there are numerous claims regarding the widespread cultivation of sinesis in research papers. This is only 1 but I have across another too.

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/44272916?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
     
    Hakim likes this.
  3. Faizal_p

    Faizal_p Resident Artisan

    Our Fragrant Harbour and Fragrant Harbour Supreme are from Cultivated Sinensis, so was the extracted Sinensis series of CO2 oils.
     
    Mazhar and powdernose like this.
  4. Mr.P

    Mr.P Evoloudtionary Bioudlogist

    Nice! Thanks.
     
  5. Tony Li

    Tony Li Whats this Oud About?

    In mainland China, the Aquilaria sinensis start the cultivation from the year of 2000, not much at the beginning, from 2008 to 2013 start to plant more.
    Regarding the oils distilled from sinensis cultivated wood, some persons try to distill but not success, they did get some oils, but the cost is too high, hard to sell in the market. At this time, a company selling CO2 machine claimed that the CO2 is the best way to extract oils from agarwood. Some persons buy the CO2 machine to extract the oils. Our company is interested in the CO2 machine and we went to visit the machine company, but we did not choose the CO2 way finally.
    Regarding the Kyara trees, it is new in the agarwood industry, from the looking of Kyara trees, it looks the same with the sinensis trees. But when the Kyara tree be drilled or hacked, it can grow the Kyara in the wounded position, no need any inoculation or chemical. The aroma of the cultivated kyara is the same type of wild Kyara, but not that strong. The mother Kyara tree is from forest, the Kyara trees we planted is using the graft. We graft the branch of mother Kyara trees on the Sinensis tress.
     
  6. Mr.P

    Mr.P Evoloudtionary Bioudlogist

    That’s interesting, thank you.
     
  7. F4R1d0uX

    F4R1d0uX Resident Artisan

    ???
     
  8. F4R1d0uX

    F4R1d0uX Resident Artisan

    Are you sure you're not scrapping the lowest part of the infected tree trunk ?

    Because Kynam tends to be found in this area of the trunk and burried parts and absolutely not in a branch and I'm very doubtful about this graft thing ...
     
  9. Mr.P

    Mr.P Evoloudtionary Bioudlogist

    Grafting is just a technique to start a new plant without seeds. You could graft a branch of one variety onto the root stock of another. This is done with grapes to extend their range...

    The branch becomes the trunk as it grows into a tree so isn’t it possible to both graft a branch and end up with infected trunk wood?
     
    Andrew Salkin and F4R1d0uX like this.
  10. Andrew Salkin

    Andrew Salkin it's aboud time!

    Yeah from everything I've heard on this subject, I believe this is how people have been able to grow kyara. What I'm not clear on is what the advantage is - does it expedite the process more than the obvious skipping of time waiting for the tree to grow from seed? Why don't all the plantations do this?

    Also - just visually I'm trying to understand how this would work. If it's grafted onto another tree - is there some kind of bio matter that holds the cloned branch in place onto the other tree? Do both the tree and branch need to be kinda roughed up a bit so that inside of the branch is being exposed to the inside of the tree? I imagine this is the only way the clone could get a water supply. And what happens when the tree gets big? Does it fall over or by that point has it grown roots around the trunk of the toppled host tree? Is the host tree dead or alive when this goes on?

    I tried some of the cultivated kyara from eBay. And it definitely smells like kyara - maybe not exactly the same or as robust. Idk I'm not that much of an expert but for the price, you ain't never getting me to spend 1k on a gram of anything. That sh** seems silly to me, and I'm not exactly someone who is careful with money - i still get the sense that kynam/kyara is like the Louis Vuitton of oud - expensive, rare, but both of these things by design for profit and no other reason. Good marketing tho. I always appreciate good marketing.
     
    Bilal likes this.
  11. F4R1d0uX

    F4R1d0uX Resident Artisan

    I come from Bordeaux and even if I don't drink wine, I know that grafting plays a bigger role than getting a new plant without seeds my friend lol !

    Resination is a defensive reaction from a stress.

    Grafting a resinated branch won't garantee you the infection of the tree.

    The tree needs the reason of the stress to make him react.

    In the case exposed : grafting would be useful if you assume that a tree that bears Kynam inside is genetically modified from roots to leaves ...

    I'm not a kyara expert but I doubt this happens.

    If this happens : you need to be sure that the grafting will modify genetically all
    the tree so it has to be CGMS tested.

    People reactions is that the smell of cultivated Kynam isn't equal to real kynam.

    Then we have to ask ourselves does a graft can replace decades and decades resination from natural infection ?

    I just say that because of all of these, I'm very doubtful ...
     
    Mr.P and Andrew Salkin like this.
  12. Andrew Salkin

    Andrew Salkin it's aboud time!

    You should try some of the cultivated kynam and see what you think - for those that can't justify 1k/gram to ourselves, it smells just fine :)

    Luckily, the cost to try it out is negligible. 20 a gram or something for the shavings. You might love it, who knows?
     
    Hakim and F4R1d0uX like this.
  13. F4R1d0uX

    F4R1d0uX Resident Artisan

    I understand your point trully, and I'm happy that there is people that are satisfied with it.

    My point is about grafting an infected 10 yo tree and have Kynam inside few time after :Thumbsup:.
     
  14. Mr.P

    Mr.P Evoloudtionary Bioudlogist

    Obviously, living in Oregon, I have no specific knowledge about the reality of kyara or kinam. But I do know a good amount about plant physiology and genetics. It’s kind of my specialty.

    If the essence of these woods is a specific infection by a specific fungus, then grafting might be unreliable unless fungal inoculation went along with it.

    But if the essence of these woods is due to the genetics of the tree itself, then it all falls into line.

    Grafting will not genetically modify the entire tree. After you graft you end up with what’s called a genetic chimera. One set of genes active in the roots, another set of genes active in the graft. This does not cause any kind of problem. The graft will stay true to its type, as will the roots. The reasons someone would graft are numerous. One reason is to avoid the hassles of seed stratification in germination, Another is that you start further along in the path of development, also the roots of a different species might grow better in the geographic area where you have your plantation, but most importantly I think it allows you to control the specific genes that are growing on your specific plants. When you harvest seeds all kinds of genetic recombination is going to happen since those seeds are produced by sexual reproduction. No two of them will be the same. Each time you plan a seed it’s a roll of the dice! So if in fact you found a living tree that contains something that resembles the fragrance you were looking for, the most reliable way to get a plantation with those same traits is to graft branches or perhaps force roots off of the branches using rooting hormone of that very same exact individual tree that has the fragrance that you want.

    Now if it turns out that kyara and kinam only form in roots (i’m no expert but this is the first time I’ve heard anyone say that, for what it’s worth) then I don’t see what the point of grafting would be.
     
    Bilal likes this.
  15. F4R1d0uX

    F4R1d0uX Resident Artisan

    Not only ...

    Me not at all but I know that grafting is useful for a tree to avoid desease for example ...

    Am I correct with that point ?
     
  16. Mr.P

    Mr.P Evoloudtionary Bioudlogist

    Absolutely. In the US french grapes have some kind of rot that affects the roots. I don’t recall the details but I think they graft French shoots onto native US roots - for some reason I have a memory it might be Concord grapes? But definitely to enable it to grow where disease would prevent it!

    how exciting that people have been able to cultivate something that smells a little bit like kyara though! I’ve smelled some cultivated stuff and while it wouldn’t substitute for actual kyara in any way, I think it has a nice Vietnamese / Chinese oud vibe that in itself, regardless of kyara, is lovely. It’s funny because in all this comparing it to kyara one might miss it’s unique beauty. Like Aussie sandalwood. If all you do is think of it as a substitute for real mysore, you will never enjoy it fully.
     
    Bilal likes this.
  17. F4R1d0uX

    F4R1d0uX Resident Artisan

    Exactly ! Bingo ! Hence me started to reply with I'm from Bordeaux lol !

    Here too I fully agree ! I'm just curious about the method ...
     
  18. F4R1d0uX

    F4R1d0uX Resident Artisan

    I didn't say so I said burried or down part of the trunk according to what I red.

    I didn't went for a hunt ...
     
  19. Tony Li

    Tony Li Whats this Oud About?

    Regarding wild Kyara (kinam), normally, it can find more in the trunk part close to the ground, other position such as root have kinam also, should be the same as the wild agarwood in Sinensis trees.
     
  20. Tony Li

    Tony Li Whats this Oud About?

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    how to paste a picture here?
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    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020

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