Rezwan

Kōdō Aesthetic
Hey, I saw Hindi oud distillations of 3 fractions. Do these fractions get added together at the end? Or are they each sold by themselves? When we buy oud is it the mix of the 3 fractions? Thank you 😊
 

zahir

Ouducation Student
Yes. 3 is just a rough number. A distillation can have more than 3 fractions. The idea is that they are collected before distillation parameters change for the next fraction/pull and ideally all fractions should be combined at the end. I was surprised that Umair sold just the first fraction to @Rai Munir sb. Because unless he set aside proportionate parts of the remaining fractions, his final oil (mixture of all fractions) would not be true representation of the wood used to make the oil.
 

Rezwan

Kōdō Aesthetic
Yes. 3 is just a rough number. A distillation can have more than 3 fractions. The idea is that they are collected before distillation parameters change for the next fraction/pull and ideally all fractions should be combined at the end. I was surprised that Umair sold just the first fraction to @Rai Munir sb. Because unless he set aside proportionate parts of the remaining fractions, his final oil (mixture of all fractions) would not be true representation of the wood used to make the oil.
Thanks for the information was very helpful and clear👍
 

Rai Munir

Musk Man
Yes. 3 is just a rough number. A distillation can have more than 3 fractions. The idea is that they are collected before distillation parameters change for the next fraction/pull and ideally all fractions should be combined at the end. I was surprised that Umair sold just the first fraction to @Rai Munir sb. Because unless he set aside proportionate parts of the remaining fractions, his final oil (mixture of all fractions) would not be true representation of the wood used to make the oil.
Of course, he managed all well, and then let go a little bit of first fraction.
Well, with respect I beg to differ with your statement about not mixing all fractions won't be a true representation of the wood used. Putting aside all other factors, this 'true representation of the wood used' is an ambiguous and vague phrase. Moreover, I feel certain oils on the market are only first fractions, esp Hindi oils. Not bad at all. It is all the matter of preference and the demand of the customers.

I personally found second and third fraction more suitable for attars, or better say the kind of Attars I like.
 
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Rai Munir

Musk Man
The dark one is the oil having all fractions, and the golden one is the first fraction. And both are true representation of Hindi Oud.

Actually words can never do. There is only one rule: Sniffing is believing.
IMG20220305203220.jpg
 

AbuTominaga

Oud Gangster
The idea is that they are collected before distillation parameters change for the next fraction/pull and ideally all fractions should be combined at the end.
Or/and through time.

Meaning: the parameters can still be the same, but you collect the first x days as the first pull. The earliest, the more fragrant and (top note-y) the oil is. Because those will be the lightest molecules.
 

Rai Munir

Musk Man
Or/and through time.

Meaning: the parameters can still be the same, but you collect the first x days as the first pull. The earliest, the more fragrant and (top note-y) the oil is. Because those will be the lightest molecules.
Very right.
Acquiring first fraction was not a random idea. A couple of years before, respected Faheem (Imperial Oud) and I met here, and when we were trying some oils, he sniffed an oil and said: 'I've already tried it, and it is all TOP NOTES'. Since then I had in my mind that someday I will acquire from a highly reliable distiller vendor. Yes, first fraction is all top notes. Longevity is less, but projection and beauty are more. For Attars, I would prefer all fractions, but for wearing, NOWADAYS I prefer first fraction.
 
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SamiterkiW

Oud Fanatic
Hello ouddicts :)
It’s sooo interesting !!!
But I have few questions and thoughts about « Fractions »
First , what do you call « First fractions »
How can we know exactly if you are collecting the final firsts fractions or the beginning of the heart fractions ?
The different temp, while how long times, shaving and different type of wood should let go out first fractions easier or faster than other type etc…
So … is there a tools to know if it’s first fractions or not ? I mean , if first fraction are Only volatil compounds , is there a tool that can collect it ? And in that case only the most volatile notes can go in this part of tool and the other are collected in an other place … ??
Don’t you waste a big part of the oil if you release an oil with only firsts fractions?

After that , is First fraction is just a name to call the only fraction that you collect since few days and the other part is the no interesting notes ?
Is first fractions are same Things from a distiller to another ?
Like incense grade ?

Finally, do you know any oils that are for sure only first fractions ?

I would love to try the different fractions of an oil and the full complete oil to compare it and understand better the way of distillation . :)

Sorry for these questions but I am very curious ^^
Thank you so much
 

zahir

Ouducation Student
First, second and third fractions are not set in stone. Anything that the distiller collects first becomes the first fraction or the first pull. One way for distillers to collect the first fraction is when the oil doesn't condense at the same rate that it was previously. Eg: only 0.1 ml of oil over 24 hours 7 days into the distillation vs 3 ml within hours of starting distillation.

All fractions are volatile. That's why we can smell them. If they were not volatile, we would not be able to smell them. Think: glass, plastic and metal. First fraction = the MOST volatile molecules. Last fraction = the LEAST volatile molecules.
 

zahir

Ouducation Student
Think of how heated agarwood smells as you PROGRESS from low to high temperature. Assuming that the agarwood gives off no further aroma at the set temperature before you increase it to the level level. Fractions of the distillation work in literally the same concept. Open to feedback from distillers. @Rai Munir @EJayB @Faheem @Habz786 @Rahel @Mario P.
 

Al Shareef Oudh

Master Perfumer
The whole use of the term fraction(s)(ing) in oudh distillation is a pseudo application of the scientific term with a partial relevance to the meaning. The unfortunate thing in the online oudh community has been and it continues is that once someone comes up with a term and definition for anything Oudh others just repeat it. This is why there are so much misinformation peddled, much of it a marketing gimmick.

In distillation fractioning requires distinct extraction parameters that will separate different compounds. Unfortunately in the online Oudh community you see individuals just taking the first oil that comes out and call it first fraction and everyone repeats that it is the first fraction. Few days later they take oil from the same pot with all the same settings and call it second fraction and so forth.

All of these so called "fractions" being oil with the same properties, i.e oil , not a different chemical product.

The term pull or take would be more accurate.

Further more, as @zahir says and experience has shown the same, an oil can not be claimed to be a true representation of the wood if the different pulls are separated. There is X amount of oil in the biomatter of any plant. The whole of that oil the complete X amount provides the complete spectrum of olfactory nuances for that oil.

The key note for woods and especially Oudh is that it doesn't open up the wood fibres all in one instance to release all the trapped oil. Rather the oil leaks out slowly that is why it requires longer time to get out the X amount that we spoke about earlier.

All the A, AA, AAA, AAAA, King etc are marketing definitions to make more money from the same wood and oil. The prices between A and King are multiples apart. Here I would say the discussion of economics and art comes in, but that for another day.
 

EJayB

True Ouddict
The whole use of the term fraction(s)(ing) in oudh distillation is a pseudo application of the scientific term with a partial relevance to the meaning. The unfortunate thing in the online oudh community has been and it continues is that once someone comes up with a term and definition for anything Oudh others just repeat it. This is why there are so much misinformation peddled, much of it a marketing gimmick.

In distillation fractioning requires distinct extraction parameters that will separate different compounds. Unfortunately in the online Oudh community you see individuals just taking the first oil that comes out and call it first fraction and everyone repeats that it is the first fraction. Few days later they take oil from the same pot with all the same settings and call it second fraction and so forth.

All of these so called "fractions" being oil with the same properties, i.e oil , not a different chemical product.

The term pull or take would be more accurate.

Further more, as @zahir says and experience has shown the same, an oil can not be claimed to be a true representation of the wood if the different pulls are separated. There is X amount of oil in the biomatter of any plant. The whole of that oil the complete X amount provides the complete spectrum of olfactory nuances for that oil.

The key note for woods and especially Oudh is that it doesn't open up the wood fibres all in one instance to release all the trapped oil. Rather the oil leaks out slowly that is why it requires longer time to get out the X amount that we spoke about earlier.

All the A, AA, AAA, AAAA, King etc are marketing definitions to make more money from the same wood and oil. The prices between A and King are multiples apart. Here I would say the discussion of economics and art comes in, but that for another day.
🙏🏼 That was very well said , good to see you on the forum again
Your knowledge goes deep into the well of Oudh
 

Rai Munir

Musk Man
Now the thread has reminded me the olden days.

Of course, the one into distillation can tell us about fractions/pull (which is named 'jaal' by the Indian distillers. So, whatever the term is used, that is comprehensible.

To cut the long story short one can acquire first fraction and the the oil having all fractions, and then decide about TRUE REPRESENTATION.

Another blind test is badly needed, the only path that leads to knowledge. Otherwise, plethora of infomation is there to get baffled.
 

Rahel

Resident Artisan
The whole use of the term fraction(s)(ing) in oudh distillation is a pseudo application of the scientific term with a partial relevance to the meaning. The unfortunate thing in the online oudh community has been and it continues is that once someone comes up with a term and definition for anything Oudh others just repeat it. This is why there are so much misinformation peddled, much of it a marketing gimmick.

In distillation fractioning requires distinct extraction parameters that will separate different compounds. Unfortunately in the online Oudh community you see individuals just taking the first oil that comes out and call it first fraction and everyone repeats that it is the first fraction. Few days later they take oil from the same pot with all the same settings and call it second fraction and so forth.

All of these so called "fractions" being oil with the same properties, i.e oil , not a different chemical product.

The term pull or take would be more accurate.

Further more, as @zahir says and experience has shown the same, an oil can not be claimed to be a true representation of the wood if the different pulls are separated. There is X amount of oil in the biomatter of any plant. The whole of that oil the complete X amount provides the complete spectrum of olfactory nuances for that oil.

The key note for woods and especially Oudh is that it doesn't open up the wood fibres all in one instance to release all the trapped oil. Rather the oil leaks out slowly that is why it requires longer time to get out the X amount that we spoke about earlier.

All the A, AA, AAA, AAAA, King etc are marketing definitions to make more money from the same wood and oil. The prices between A and King are multiples apart. Here I would say the discussion of economics and art comes in, but that for another day.
Javad or Al shareef, so your telling me that there’s no such thing as grades of wood???
 
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Faris

Oud Beginner
The whole use of the term fraction(s)(ing) in oudh distillation is a pseudo application of the scientific term with a partial relevance to the meaning. The unfortunate thing in the online oudh community has been and it continues is that once someone comes up with a term and definition for anything Oudh others just repeat it. This is why there are so much misinformation peddled, much of it a marketing gimmick.

In distillation fractioning requires distinct extraction parameters that will separate different compounds. Unfortunately in the online Oudh community you see individuals just taking the first oil that comes out and call it first fraction and everyone repeats that it is the first fraction. Few days later they take oil from the same pot with all the same settings and call it second fraction and so forth.

All of these so called "fractions" being oil with the same properties, i.e oil , not a different chemical product.

The term pull or take would be more accurate.

Further more, as @zahir says and experience has shown the same, an oil can not be claimed to be a true representation of the wood if the different pulls are separated. There is X amount of oil in the biomatter of any plant. The whole of that oil the complete X amount provides the complete spectrum of olfactory nuances for that oil.

The key note for woods and especially Oudh is that it doesn't open up the wood fibres all in one instance to release all the trapped oil. Rather the oil leaks out slowly that is why it requires longer time to get out the X amount that we spoke about earlier.

All the A, AA, AAA, AAAA, King etc are marketing definitions to make more money from the same wood and oil. The prices between A and King are multiples apart. Here I would say the discussion of economics and art comes in, but that for another day.
Respected Artisan, A AA AAA sinking and so on, doesn’t this tell the customer about the amount of resin+oil content and therefore the duration of burning time on charcoal? I think this is what dictates the price, although you know better.

Also regarding the pulls, I agree that all the pulls combined make the complete oil. However, what I’ve come to know after talking with several retailers (mostly commercial) that they take the 1st pull (trad firewood) & price it the highest as it is the best quality (a claim perhaps). Then they cook more (increase temp) and extract the 2nd pull (I did find it to be slightly rough-edged, with a hint of burning smell) & then cook more for the 3rd and go upto 5 pulls, only to cater the needs of a wider range of retailers/customers. They intentionally stretch it out to 4-5 pulls (even when they can extract all the oil in one or 2 pulls), perhaps by extracting pulls immaturely.

Therefore, they price the subsequent pulls lower. Some even mix Boya with the 4th, 5th pulls but that’s a diff topic. They however, don’t combine the pulls because then they will be inflexible with the pricing.

I’m curious to know what you think of the method/practice and how much truth do you see in their explanation. I only listen to them (quietly), without disagreeing, so that I can get as much info as possible from them.
 

Al Shareef Oudh

Master Perfumer
Respected Artisan, A AA AAA sinking and so on, doesn’t this tell the customer about the amount of resin+oil content and therefore the duration of burning time on charcoal? I think this is what dictates the price, although you know better.

Also regarding the pulls, I agree that all the pulls combined make the complete oil. However, what I’ve come to know after talking with several retailers (mostly commercial) that they take the 1st pull (trad firewood) & price it the highest as it is the best quality (a claim perhaps). Then they cook more (increase temp) and extract the 2nd pull (I did find it to be slightly rough-edged, with a hint of burning smell) & then cook more for the 3rd and go upto 5 pulls, only to cater the needs of a wider range of retailers/customers. They intentionally stretch it out to 4-5 pulls (even when they can extract all the oil in one or 2 pulls), perhaps by extracting pulls immaturely.

Therefore, they price the subsequent pulls lower. Some even mix Boya with the 4th, 5th pulls but that’s a diff topic. They however, don’t combine the pulls because then they will be inflexible with the pricing.

I’m curious to know what you think of the method/practice and how much truth do you see in their explanation. I only listen to them (quietly), without disagreeing, so that I can get as much info as possible from them.
very good questions brother.

My reference to the letters were in the context of oils, nevertheless since you have brought up wood grading we can look at an example of those as well.

The gradings isn't about resin + oil content only. For example in Indonesia, they will call a piece of merauke oudh double super, and the same quality (from resin + oil) sometimes slightly less quality but larger in size they will call it triple super. Therefore it isnt just about the resin and oil, but also the size of the piece and the demand of the particular market that governs the grading.

There is also the condition of the supply market, for example in markets where there is a greater supply of higher quality wood, they will drop woods to lower grades sooner, compared to a source where that isnt as much higher quality woods. At the sources where higher grade wood is running out, lower quality woods will be graded, a couple notches higher, because of the scarcity of the woods.

Unfortunately there isnt a universal grading standard that is governed and has some level of uniformity of application across all regions.

As for the pulls, they are driven by marketing and sales. These pulls do a disservice to the oil, as the oil will miss out from the completeness. If they wanted a complete oil they would have to run the pots for a much longer time on lower temperature to achieve similar volumes.

For example some distillers will claim that their first collection (pull) is done after 6 hours, some say after 12 hours, etc. There isnt a clear standard there either. Why do they do these "pulls" is to give them variety and to cut the cost of doing long distillation which will require more fuel and water for cooling. Imagine having only one product and capturing one segment of the market, or 5 different products from the same pot, capturing 5 different segments of the market AND having run the pots for a much shorter time.
 

Faris

Oud Beginner
very good questions brother.

My reference to the letters were in the context of oils, nevertheless since you have brought up wood grading we can look at an example of those as well.

The gradings isn't about resin + oil content only. For example in Indonesia, they will call a piece of merauke oudh double super, and the same quality (from resin + oil) sometimes slightly less quality but larger in size they will call it triple super. Therefore it isnt just about the resin and oil, but also the size of the piece and the demand of the particular market that governs the grading.

There is also the condition of the supply market, for example in markets where there is a greater supply of higher quality wood, they will drop woods to lower grades sooner, compared to a source where that isnt as much higher quality woods. At the sources where higher grade wood is running out, lower quality woods will be graded, a couple notches higher, because of the scarcity of the woods.

Unfortunately there isnt a universal grading standard that is governed and has some level of uniformity of application across all regions.

As for the pulls, they are driven by marketing and sales. These pulls do a disservice to the oil, as the oil will miss out from the completeness. If they wanted a complete oil they would have to run the pots for a much longer time on lower temperature to achieve similar volumes.

For example some distillers will claim that their first collection (pull) is done after 6 hours, some say after 12 hours, etc. There isnt a clear standard there either. Why do they do these "pulls" is to give them variety and to cut the cost of doing long distillation which will require more fuel and water for cooling. Imagine having only one product and capturing one segment of the market, or 5 different products from the same pot, capturing 5 different segments of the market AND having run the pots for a much shorter time.
Nicely explained dear brother 👌
Indeed, the wood grading system is uncalibrated & unstandardised & I feel it will never be (sadly) because of the supply & demand (like you stated)

Moving on, the last 6 lines is the crux of the commercial pull story 👏
However, what do you make of the artisanal pulls, where there is just one segment/audience?
P.S - Although not sure, I’m assuming pulls are only possible in steam distillation & not hydro or CO2. If you can explain why, it would be great.
 

Al Shareef Oudh

Master Perfumer
Nicely explained dear brother 👌
Indeed, the wood grading system is uncalibrated & unstandardised & I feel it will never be (sadly) because of the supply & demand (like you stated)

Moving on, the last 6 lines is the crux of the commercial pull story 👏
However, what do you make of the artisanal pulls, where there is just one segment/audience?
P.S - Although not sure, I’m assuming pulls are only possible in steam distillation & not hydro or CO2. If you can explain why, it would be great.
In the artisan market those who do it have different reasons, though not many of them if any, sell pulls. The collect them at different intervals then remix them all at the end. One of the reasons they might do that is how their distillation equipment is setup. With those setups that have recycling of the hydrosol they would collect to avoid accidents of spillage overnight and the oil setting around in the open for too long.

There could be other reasons, and those who do so would need to elaborate. In both steam and hydro oils can be collected on intervals.
 
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