Oud: Tradition vs Modernity and Mastery vs Innovation
- Thread starter Nikhil S
- Start date
Shabby
Junior Member
@Rai Munir @Nikhil S
First of all I am certainly not offended in any way by your posts! I do appreciate the contributions and especially the good spirit.
Nikhil I am a descendent of Arabs who settled on the West coast of Sri Lanka, and we can trace some branches back to many hundreds of years ago. No doubt they were sailing in that region for long before that and were intimately familiar with the natural resources of the region.
@Rai Munir Specifically to you I wish to say that tradition is something which does not suffice as an argument unto itself. Tradition can decay and degenerate, and the greatest indicator that it has decayed is that it is no longer beautiful. One can see this even with styles of Qur'an illumination, for instance. Conversely, the presence of beauty is in itself a sufficient argument for its value. In other words, tradition is necessary but not sufficient, but beauty is both necessary and sufficient.
That is why my point has always been simple: we must go by the oils.
Having said that, the greatest oils will no doubt come from when sacred tradition meets excellent raw materials and a reverent distiller. This is not a guarantee that the result will be a barnyard Hindi oud, however, and that is the main point I am making.
(p.s. for anyone who doesn't know my first love was heavy barnyard ouds)
First of all I am certainly not offended in any way by your posts! I do appreciate the contributions and especially the good spirit.
Nikhil I am a descendent of Arabs who settled on the West coast of Sri Lanka, and we can trace some branches back to many hundreds of years ago. No doubt they were sailing in that region for long before that and were intimately familiar with the natural resources of the region.
@Rai Munir Specifically to you I wish to say that tradition is something which does not suffice as an argument unto itself. Tradition can decay and degenerate, and the greatest indicator that it has decayed is that it is no longer beautiful. One can see this even with styles of Qur'an illumination, for instance. Conversely, the presence of beauty is in itself a sufficient argument for its value. In other words, tradition is necessary but not sufficient, but beauty is both necessary and sufficient.
That is why my point has always been simple: we must go by the oils.
Having said that, the greatest oils will no doubt come from when sacred tradition meets excellent raw materials and a reverent distiller. This is not a guarantee that the result will be a barnyard Hindi oud, however, and that is the main point I am making.
(p.s. for anyone who doesn't know my first love was heavy barnyard ouds)
Oudamberlove
Member
I like Traditional, Modern, Master-distilled, and Mad-Scientist oils, as long as they're well-made.
Since there are Ouddicts that align themselves with these different schools, I think we ought to honor their point of view
and recognize the categorizations
Since there are Ouddicts that align themselves with these different schools, I think we ought to honor their point of view
and recognize the categorizations
Royalbengalouds
Resident Artisan
definitely makes me think how they made the oils 1439 years Ago , during the time of the Prophet PBH and the past Prophets caused they all used Perfumes - Scented Oils , Oils were even used on King Suleiman PBH Masjid , they anointed the oils on the Pillars so when you would walk in the Holy of Holy room with the Ark Of Covenant you would smell the oils from the Pillars , and Oils from the Time of the Egyptians and past Civilizations , I bring up the discussion with my Old Uncle if we had a time machine and took Oud Oil cooked in a Full Pyrex Setup how would the people of Mecca 1439 Years ago react to the Oil , and to take a time Machine to see how they cooked Oils in India , Uncle replied "Some of the Old School Techniques are still being used but with new technology & Techniques how long will it last for?" , Hence keeping the Old school tradition tighter than a army boot is the way for our future generations to learn and keep teaching and also innovating , so lets open the vault Of Distillation and teach each other and learn from each other and to help one another is a true path to olfactory wonders in this world. To keep it locked up is like a bird in a cage. ( I give thanks to God that he provided a form like this , I personally have no knowledge on Musk , but after reading and learning from Ouddict Members , I am addicted to Musk now , I say more than Oud almost , there is a Tug of war in my brains , Oud Or Musk today , lol 
)
)
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Nikhil S
Resident Reviewer
@Faizal_p Bro pls understand not every local assamese distiller has to have barn in his oils. I have first fraction oils from Assam which have no barn. Yes traditional Indian without barn and thats the most highly regarded oil sold in Hojai. You would be extremely lucky to find one. It has a watery consistency. Very smokey oil with peppery leather character. The drydown is epic. Its almost like a perfume. So, these non barn hindis are the so called best lots of traditional Assam distillations. Ask Zak bhai about it. He may have an idea.
And btw, I said Walla is not aquilaria. I dint say it was not agarwood. Even gaharu boya is agarwood.
And btw, I said Walla is not aquilaria. I dint say it was not agarwood. Even gaharu boya is agarwood.
Royalbengalouds
Resident Artisan
Arabs for thousands of years would use Yemen as port to connect direct to Kerala and Sri Lanka on the East Coast part , the arab dhow ( Boat ) would be used to travel directly from Yemen to Kerala & Sri Lanka over the Arabian Sea & if we took a ruler it's kind of a straight line. There was a Hindu King ( King Chakrawati Farmas is documented in an old manuscript in the India ) who went back with Arab Sea traders to Arabia in the same manner of direction right over the Arabian sea and was later buried in Yemen. So that part of the Arabian sea was definitely the highway of trading for the Arabs for thousands of years directly to Kerala & Sri Lanka on the east Coast part , Zheng He famous Chinese Muslim Sea trader used that same jump from Sri Lanka to Yemen also.
and there was one time a Boat left Yemen destined for Kerala and somehow got lost on the Sea and Ended up in Sylhet ( Bangladesh) and on that boat was Shajalal al Yemeni with his 313 Arab Companions , he brought peace and harmony in that part of the world and never left and stayed there and was buried there, Ibn Battuta met him also ( Elders in North Frontier Pakistan region in those days said you have to travel to Sylhet to meet Shajalal al Yemeni , "you have to meet him" as per the Elders , So Ibn Butta travel through the Hindu Kush and past the high mountains and finally reached him and met him) and his companions are scattered all over Bangladesh in unmark graves , So lots of History between Yemen and Southern tip Of India & Sri Lanka on the East Coast Side for super long time , the Direct link between Arabs and Asia ( I wish I was on those boats to part of history )
I love to talk and research on oceanic trade and past trade with Civilizations on the Sea , sorry for me ranting away , my bad
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Mandeel AlMandeel
Oud Geek
@Shabby:
Respected Sir, you are right on certain points. I am really thankful over your highlighting certain points that I missed in my post. First of all, I have attached a photo at the end of this post that shows I wear all Ouds, even including Trat. The oils placed a bit higher than the rest of oils are Hindi. Not more than four or five. And many more are in cupboard that are majorly not Hindi. I have embraced everything, and I will remain loyal to them, BUT HINDI IS A BIT HIGHER THAN THE REST OF OILS, and it is not personal taste. I have inclusive approach, not exclusive. But it doesn't mean to shatter and scatter ranks. You are right we listen to each other and orient our views. They way I listen to you and learn and unlearn. I do wear Ouds from all, and almost all.
My respected most Sir, sometime I feel there is difference in nature present in Hyde park and Southeast Asian Tropical jungle. The word 'Nature' is the same, but one is man-made, Hyde Park- beautifully manicured lawn, well trimmed trees, and neat and clean. But blank-faced and expressionless. But it has a lot of attraction who hasn't strolled through the thick jungle of Khanas Pur- untrimmed mad trees, un-mowed wind bent grass and twisted trees. Modern nature and Nature as such.
You are absolutely right defining tradition. But what I posted is just about quasi tradition. Yoga centers in Europe. Meditation symposium in the West. A lot of pseudo yogis and pseudo spiritual masters have opened their shops for meditation workshops. NOT TRADITION. Deterioration. One is great Shinkar Acharya's meditation, and one is modern man-made yoga center to meditate for better health and coming out of self created and earned depression. Anyway, it is digression. One more: Workshops about "Creative Writing" and so on. NOT TRADITION. Though name being used is the same. Same is true to Oud World. What I pointed out is not about Alhambra and Kyoto, but the current cult of equating Casino Royale with Alhambra
My respected most Sir, Oud Tradition is not something unknown to many. It is still intact. Tradition, if it is Tradition, stays intact in the presence of pseudo traditions. This is not the matter of preferences and tastes. I referred to respected Zak as well known person in our community. Even here, rightly pointed out by respected Nikhil, respected Jawed. Well, I really never ever try to nullify any of my fellow, my brother, my respected members. I have noted your point, and next onward, I will be careful enough. Thanks for letting me know about my wording and tone.
Believe me, my respected Shabby, I myself personally know very respected persons and some very respected members and some more than respected Masters who haven't sensed anything Oud or Oudy in recent releases. Yet I bought, and yet I will buy, and yet I will like and suggest to my fellows in my contact here in my city and country. But what is Tradition, that will remain Tradition. Thanks to Alkhadra, he is the man who brought into my information a lot of interesting thing through his posts, AL Hind is not limited to India, but doesn't extend to Trat, Hainan, Papua, etc. etc. as well.
Current market has beautiful oils, but a few Ouds. This is subjective statement. One may/ has to disagree. So far as vendors are concerned, they are marvelous, the way Steve Jobs had been. To be respected as human. No doubt. But the question is vendor-ing. Of course, it is somewhat different issue. It is said that from a distance or out of arrogance, the scene remains blur and hazy. I do my best to avoid both, and then judge, and judge for my own, not for others.
I have always been an admirer of you, not only of your posts. So far as posts are concerned, we have started drifting apart
@Shabby: Respected and dear Sir, tonight I am going to wear Green Papua. I like it because it is beautiful, while consider it un-traditional oil.
View attachment 1975
Wonderful picture thanks for sharing habibi!
Nikhil S
Resident Reviewer
I love history and Geography too. Of course Kerala is in direct line with Gulf as it is on the West Coast. A boat which got lost in the Bay of Bengal must have had a very bad navigator or horrible sea conditions. Once they reached Kerala they could walk into Tamil Nadu and if a bridge did exist to Sri Lanka. Thats not even a concern. Concern was Gyrinops in Kerala. History is history. Who knows what really happened ! Btw, Ibn Ba Tuta is not to be taken seriously. His travels have been questioned by Popular Arab Explorers of the ancient world. Ibn Batuta is very interesting character. Makes for a very interesting reading.
Nikhil S
Resident Reviewer
I dont see why I shouldnt even if I clearly didn't. A good vendor doesn't discourage others. Thats the point. You will get the answer to reputation of swamp woods when you meet an old time seller. Meroke is swamp wood. They wouldnt even know anything about Kyara or Kinam. Does it make Kyara any inferior or obsolete ? I dont think so because matter is not of opinion but of experience. Someone who spent their whole life selling Hindi Oud would definitely know a thing about Oud tradition.
Mandeel AlMandeel
Oud Geek
I love all oud oils but my top tow are Hindi then Cambodian...
Faizal_p
Sulaym.co.uk
Tinsukia was a first fraction oil, I'm quite familiar with the way Hindi Oud is distilled, where they sell the first, second then paste oils. We also sold semkhor first fraction which was roughly 25mls.
One of the distillers we met has a similar thought process to us so we may produce an oil which is more along the lines of the new fangled avant garde range.
The rarity of resin wood in gyrinops is the same as aquilaria, aetoxyln even though it is part of the family produces a much simpler aroma and is way more common. I have a few different batches of oils from this subspecies and all are average at best, nowhere near as complex as Oud agarwood.
Ouddict
Ouddict Co-Founder & Tech Support
Quote of the year... by their history towards other vendors ye shall know them.
Nikhil S
Resident Reviewer
I have never doubted your abilities or experience. Just wanted to let you about this sort of oil. Really. Believe me if you will. Its a very unique oil. Try and look for some when you visit them again. Tinsukia is a nice oil. Very clean.
Nikhil S
Resident Reviewer
Sadly thats a truth we have to live with. Competition and clashes are part of life. And thats why most vendors have left participating or excused themselves of most forums. Sad.
Habz786
Resident Artisan & Ouddict Co-Founder
This is such a great and beneficial discussion and so much knowledge sharing. It seems anything we talk about here seems to drip onto Gaharu as they dont have a lot to talk about, we also get accused of all sorts by their Mods. They are so defensive and insecure that any discussion had here is deemed as an attack or some other rubbish. An open forum has open discussions and not just praising one persons oils 24/7, if there are differences of opinion and understanding this is the beauty of Oud, knowledge and the learning process.
Ouddict
Ouddict Co-Founder & Tech Support
Leave them be... we cannot have a genuine and fruitful discussion on here (which this thread is a fine example of) without eliciting negativity from over there which is fast becoming an echo chamber of Ouddict - sad really.
Apparently this thread is just "allegations and opinions", "stirring up controversy" and throwing a particular vendor "under the garbage truck". I don't recognise that on here! It is a polite and civil discourse between people supporting their different positions.
For the record we are on good terms with this vendor who apparently has been thrown "under a garbage truck" and I spoke to him yesterday and we are reviewing some of his excellent oils tomorrow. I've known him since 2012 and consider him one of the good guys in Oud. Go figure.
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Shabby
Junior Member
Salaam brother I think it would be really good if this discussion keeps to the topic and doesn't become another shouting match, especially because there are already several fruitful branches of discussion going on here.
Ouddict
Ouddict Co-Founder & Tech Support
F4R1d0uX
Resident Artisan
I got 1st fraction and if it's well cured, its not barn.
I planed to sell it but I retracted because people would be disturbed by the profile of it.