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Sample Price Comparison

Discussion in 'Oud Market Trends' started by Al Shareef Oudh, Jan 25, 2017.

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  1. Al Shareef Oudh

    Al Shareef Oudh Resident Artisan

    the math here is horribly wrong and misleading.

    First off, the samples sizes are not 3grams, those are full bottles. The sample sizes for the vendors you mention; Al Shareef Oudh 0.2ml, Imperial Oud 0.2ml and Ensar 0.3grams and I believe 0.25grams some oils.

    If we take your example for the $2500/3gm oil Ensar sells the 0.25gm at $225 for Sultan Ahmad as per his website. Which is 8% higher than per ml on the full bottle, not 10+% as you have mentioned. You should correct your post and apologies to Ensar for miss representing his product cost.

    Secondly you count the shipping as ~$30, I know we ship samples for $5 usd which makes our samples the best value for money and well below 5%.

    If you are going to use numbers, you should be cautious not to miss represent vendors.
    AbasFrag and Habz786 like this.
  2. PEARL

    PEARL Guerrilla

    Ok, deleted, but you still have it so you can do the math. We've all been wrong before, @Al Shareef Oudh. Unfortunately some would never admit it.

    Furthermore, the math is correct, but let's look at one example:
    The vendor I should apologize to: $550 full bottle and $59 sample-59/550 x 100% = 10.72%, price of 0.3 gm sample is 10.72% of full bottle.

    1gm H20 = 1ml H20, I'll use the same for oil even though the weight of the oil would be less, and give you that advantage.

    Layth, first we have to convert .2 to .3 to make it even. A 0.2ml sample is $55, so 55/2 = $27.5/0.1ml x 3 = $82.5 for 0.3ml sample; 82.5/490 x 100% = 16.83%, price of 0.3ml (which would actually be less than 3gm because oil is lighter than H20) sample is 16.83% of full bottle

    Sultan Ahmet was not released when I did the math, but lets do it; For $2500/3gm: 0.25gm/$225 = 0.3gm/$270; 270/2500 x 100% = 10.8%, price of sample is 10.8% of the price of full bottle. My original post states his samples are 10.7-10.8% of the cost of a full bottle. Nothing horribly wrong there.

    The $2500/3gm example was to show a possible reason why samples are often not available for oils in that price range(as one can see from my original post quoted by you); I've only seen one vendor publicly release oils of that price and quality and that same vendor uses DHL @ $25 for 2-3 business days(orders under $550 making a sample of it CLOSE to $300) and not $5 for 10-15 business days or your $40 DHL option.

    To clarify for any misunderstanding of the correct math shown, let's use $100 as the price of both full bottles and the respective percentages; his would be $10.72 and yours $16.83.

    I could do the rest but I don't have time to correct your errors; as I said the vendor I should apologize to samples are the least expensive.

    The only thing wrong is I wrote 3gm sample instead of 0.3gm in my original post, my fault.

    It didn't come to quarrel, merely to be objective, when consumers say one thing is more expensive than the other, they need to do comparitive analysis, apples:apples and some fact checking.
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2017
  3. PEARL

    PEARL Guerrilla

    Do the math, 5% of $490(layth) is $24.50; the sample is actually $55, not well below 5% and in fact more than twice that.
    F4R1d0uX likes this.
  4. Al Shareef Oudh

    Al Shareef Oudh Resident Artisan

    Automatic Watch feature, nearly had to turn it off due to the number of edits you made on this post.

    This post of yours again is very misleading, you posted a half baked apology, got the 'like' from a couple of members, then you came back edited the post and pasted a whole heap of inaccurate, misleading, and because it is the second time, false information. Since you like to read into what likes mean, to clarify those likes were for your apology and not the later addition you made. Very sneaky.

    It looks like I have to repeat myself as you are bent on misrepresenting;

    In defence of Ensar he clearly mentions on his website http://ensaroud.com/en/category/sultan-series/17 ;

    0.25 grams $225, very simple, very clear. 8% marked up on the full bottler per ml. Not 10+ % as you claim. Your generalisation is incorrect, misleading and inaccurate please go and say sorry to Ensar for miss representing his product.

    you in your original post made a generalisation about his samples being 10+% marked up, and I pointed out to you very clearly that isnt the case with just one sample, I am sure there are other samples on his site which are below 10% and possibly over too, therefore your range is again misleading and inaccurate.

    Now let us assess the 'math' you present

    Sultan Ahmet was not released when I did the math, but lets do it; For $2500/3gm: 0.25gm/$225 = 0.3gm/$270; 270/2500 x 100% = 10.8%, price of sample is 10.8% of the price of full bottle. My original post states his samples are 10.7-10.8% of the cost of a full bottle. Nothing horribly wrong there.

    No where on Ensar's webpage does he advertise 0.3grams of Sultan Ahmad for $270, in fact he doesn't even have a 0.3gram option for Sultan Ahmad,
    sultan ahmad.jpg
    pic taken from his website 26/1/2017 10:40 AUSTWST, therefore the $270 is a number you falsely created. The reason I say falsely, is because after it being pointed out to you the first time you continued to push it.

    The original thread/poll and post back on page one was about samples, not shipping, adding shipping without explaining the dynamics is very misleading. For example Shipping to the USA from Jordan is very different to shipping to the USA from UK , shipping to the UK from Australia is very different than Shipping from Australia to the USA or shipping within the USA. Clearly not comparing apples with apples Very misleading.

    In any case regarding Al Shareef Oudh sample for Layth which you have taken as your example; the sample is $55 per 0.2ml. We ship that for $5 dollars, that is $20 dollars less than the shipping you quoted. The purpose of this thread wasnt shipping but since you have brought it up I will deal with it, we offer the most comprehensive full range of shipping options, and the one most used 9/10 times for samples is the $5 option. Therefore you are again misleading people by trying to make an issue regarding the shipping speed, when it is not the case with consumers for samples.

    With regard's to Al Shareef Oudh samples, again as you did with Ensar's samples you are doing a similar sneaky with ours. Do do Comparative analysis the consumer is saving $20 on every sample they buy from us, due to our $5 USD shipping vs the $25 USD you quoted, which is comparative to taking $20 off the sample price making them below 5% and therefore the most affordable option.

    I don't have time for your errors , but that isnt a generalisation, I will point them out when I have to, and I hope both the readers and moderators take note.
  5. Ammar

    Ammar True Ouddict

    I think you guys took it too seriously to a personal level of nonsense. Nonsense in a matter of that it is not beneficial to the reader by any means. You've just shadowed an excellent post by @F4R1d0uX for example!

    I hope that moderators take all these mathematically-loaded posts down.
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2017
    F4R1d0uX likes this.
  6. PEARL

    PEARL Guerrilla

    @Al Shareef Oudh any consumer is more than welcome to do the comparative math and see whose samples are the least expensive and whose aren't. I've done the math which shows that.

    My post is about 0.3 gm samples. That is why I converted Sultan Ahmet from 0.25gm to 0.3gm. To show that for 0.3gm sample(is which isn't on the site, so you're correct there) that his prices are 10.7-10.8%. Again comparing apples to apple.

    That was done because some look at a sample and will say that one is less expensive. But what they did not do is realize that one is truly 0.3gm(the heaviest) and one is 0.2ml(about 1/3 less oil than a true 0.3gm sample) or another is whatever. In order to compare them mathematically, in the cases I show, one has to either convert(as close as possible using 1gm = 1ml) 0.3gm to 0.2ml or convert 0.2ml to 0.3gm. It's really quite simple and the anyone is free to do the math. Unfortunately, some would never admit to being wrong.

    @Ammar the numbers are objective. We say we want true objectivity when comparing things, yet most of the time I see people talking about over pricing(there's a whole thread about it) I don't see anyone doing any comparitive math or putting up any prices. It's as if they are afraid to show objectivity, rather they make unsupported statements. To remove a "mathematically loaded post" is to declare that we don't want objectivity, that we'd rather tip toe around the subject in order to protect some and scorn others. MY math is correct and I invite anyone to do that math and show otherwise.

    Nothing was done "sneaky", I put up a post and then thought about it. I thought why should I not address the matter that you resurfaced, why should I tip toe around the issue as if I'm afraid to show the true objectivity using sound math, math that some will understand, some will attempt to paint as being false and some will ask to have removed simply because it does show objectivity. I don't post for likes and I do have expectations.
    Mandeel AlMandeel and F4R1d0uX like this.
  7. JohnH

    JohnH True Ouddict

    I think most people can work out whether buying a sample is good value or not and if it adds to the total cost of a full bottle then so be it, better than blind buying a full bottle and not liking it at all. Samples have saved me more money than not.
  8. F4R1d0uX

    F4R1d0uX Resident Artisan

    Brother @PEARL peace be upon you.

    I assume being amongst people who say : oud is overpriced.

    I'm sincerly sorry but if I start to do maths and show some evidences, most people of this forum would give up oud because of system opacity.

    As I already said, oil is innocent from people and at the end of the day, everyone is free to apply prices they want.

    I recognize some sellers have wonderfull concepts (like apple has for example).

    I also assume people who can afford have the right to escape from a mad world during a swype session.

    People buy from who their want and this freedom and concurrency prices should regulate the market on their own.

    So as said wisely KZ we must live and let live.

    I'm sorry if I offended someone and better share peacefuly here even if criticism.
  9. PEARL

    PEARL Guerrilla

  10. Ouddict

    Ouddict Forum Co-Founder & Tech Support

    I agree, but I'm not sure if this belongs in its own thread, because while it is related to the thread topic, I'm not sure if it is relevant. That is what JohnH is alluding to.

    By the way, anyone with an elementary grasp of Maths should be able to work this out.
    PEARL likes this.
  11. PEARL

    PEARL Guerrilla

    @Ouddict respectfully, how can it not be relevant if that's one of the points the topic is discussing?
  12. Ouddict

    Ouddict Forum Co-Founder & Tech Support

    Because this thread is to do whether one tries before they buy. These posts are about the price of samples, so not relevant to whether someone tries a sample. Rather this discussion is a related topic as it is a discussion about samples (but the prices and not if one tries a sample). I will move the posts to their own thread and you can debate to your hearts content.
  13. Ouddict

    Ouddict Forum Co-Founder & Tech Support

    Just read this post. I think the phrase "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" applies here. It is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments. It is easy to present a loaded argument about the 'value' of a sample when making a priori assumptions. What about the initial price of a FB? Since the OP feels that samples from one vendor are better value for money, based purely on a narrow consideration, why not logically consider the price of the bottle in the first place and what is being sold?
  14. Ammar

    Ammar True Ouddict

    The only objectivity here is who wins an argument. The prices/amount are there and anyone can do the simple math if he is meticulous about that. The idea is to discuss general concepts not comparative study between vendors as we are trying to go anonymous regarding vendors who in turn can relate accordingly and act subsequently. Same goes to the thread and general discussion about the oud wether it's overpriced or not, it is NOT about whether certain vendor products are overpriced to post objective comparable math and numbers. On the contrary, the discussion might have led someone to reasonably understand to some extent why $2500 price tag might not be that overpriced after all.

    Deleting these posts is not against objectivity nor protecting someone, it is simply because they are tensive and unnecessary.
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2017
    Habz786 and Ouddict like this.
  15. PEARL

    PEARL Guerrilla

    @Ouddict that should be another consideration as to comparing price. But just as with the samples, it's difficult to compare the prices of full bottles when vendors sell in different quantities. Case in point on price alone, some trusted vendors sell a true 3gm bottle whereas some vendors sell a 2.5ml bottle. When you compare knowing the math, a 2.5ml bottle is approximately 1/6 less oil than a 3gm bottle. If priced similarly, which is the better value based on price alone?

    Then there's consideration of what's "in the bottle". From a consumer standpoint, an assessment of what's "in a bottle" is subjective. Case in point, if one consumer likes what's in the bottle, they may deem that oil priceless, regardless of price they paid; whereas one consumer who does not like what's in the bottle, they may deem that oil worthless, regardless of price they paid. That's where the discussion becomes convoluted; with conflict as to the value of an oil and if an oil is overpriced.
  16. PEARL

    PEARL Guerrilla

    @Ammar I agree to an extent. But you must ask yourself a question; why is it ok to review a vendors product favorably or praise a vendor but not ok(having to be anonymous) when showing objective differences among those same vendors.
  17. Al Shareef Oudh

    Al Shareef Oudh Resident Artisan

    I do apologies to the other members that you have to read this stuff, but such inaccurate 'math' reflects bad on vendors, in the example below you can see it is 2.8 percent on 8, PEARL is off by 35%

    Just so that it is clear that you are misleading people with your numbers, this applies for how you calculated Ensars, Imperials and Al Shareef Oudh's numbers, but I will just take the example with Sultan Ahmad to demonstrate how horribly wrong your calculation is;

    On Ensar's website 0.25grams is for $225
    3 grams is for $2500

    2500/3grams = $833.33' per gram

    $833.33' x 0.25 = 208.33' for 0.25grams

    208.33 x Uplift = $225
    Uplift = 225/208.33 = 1.08
    1.08 x 100 = 108, therefore for each 0.25grams the consumer will pay 8% more than that equivalent mass i.e 0.25grams in a full bottle had they purchased a full bottle.

    Now let us take the 0.3gram example you give

    $833.33' x 0.3 = $250 for 3grams without up lift.

    250 x 1.08(or 108%) = $270

    Your mistake is that you have taken $270 and divided it by the value of the full bottle $2500 rather than the value of the 0.3gm for the non uplift.

    What you should have done is 270/250 = 1.08

    1.08 x 100 = 108 therefore for each 0.3grams the consumer will pay 8% more than that equivalent mass i.e 0.3grams in a full bottle had they purchased a full bottle.

    As you can see the uplift is consistent at 8% for both 0.25grams and 0.3grams not 10.7-10.8 as you stated.

    I hope that is clear now. Please go apologies to Ensar, Imperial and Al Shareef Oudh for misrepresenting all three vendors.
  18. Habz786

    Habz786 Resident Artisan & Forum Co-Founder

    Maths wasnt my favorite subject at school and seeing all these figures has made my head spin! I think its best you guys agree to disagree however if you feel the need to continue the thread will become like ME v YOU thing, I beleive PEARL apologised for his error so its best we move on with the topic rather than go around in circles. I think its only fair that sample prices are equal to the cost of the full bottle. However vendors as a kind gesture do add samples in with previous orders, ive experienced this with IO,EO,FO,ASO and its always nice because it helps build a positive relationship between customer/vendor. Sometimes the shipping does add alot onto the price when buying a sample and cheaper shipping options would be useful, however thats up to each individual vendor to consider and offer.
  19. PEARL

    PEARL Guerrilla

    @Habz786 my error was writing a 3gm sample instead of a 0.3gm sample in my original post, nothing more as the math itself is sound.

    We have often wanted other vendors to participate in conversation. I fully respect when they choose not to, especially in conversations where they have a vested interest to attempt to prove something contrary to the facts.

    @Al Shareef I have made direct comparisons of vendor sample price. It's rather peculiar that you keep showing Ensar's numbers yet you don't and likely won't show your own for comparison.

    The consumers as well as the other vendors are free to do their own math.
  20. Ouddict

    Ouddict Forum Co-Founder & Tech Support

    I agree with your point Pearl that vendors choose not to engage in conversations, especially where they have a vested interest to attempt to prove something contrary to the facts. There is only one vendor who has never wanted to participate in discussions on this forum...
    Mandeel AlMandeel likes this.
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