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Science Or Art?

EJayB

True Ouddict
Please explain the difference in collection of the oil? Did you recycle your oil 1000 tines through your cleavenger apparatus and destroy the oil trying to remove it? Did you do the lactic acid soak ? Do you know about that ? Do you have a solvent recovery head on your double ckeavenger? Who makes your glass and are they an artest? Can you invent new glassware for your needs and them blow that glass ? Let me see your double cleavenger do you have a triple?
you may know how something is done but that’s not always allowing you to get it done!
I know the dance steps but I’m a horrible dancer!
 

AZsmell

True Ouddict
Give the same batch of wood to 5 different top notch oud distillers and you will get 5 different oils. Each distiller has their own vision for their oil. They use science to accomplish this goal. An analogy would be to give 5 different bakers the exact same ingredients to bake a cake. You will get 5 different cakes.
 

EJayB

True Ouddict
Scientists
Give the same batch of wood to 5 different top notch oud distillers and you will get 5 different oils. Each distiller has their own vision for their oil. They use science to accomplish this goal. An analogy would be to give 5 different bakers the exact same ingredients to bake a cake. You will get 5 different cakes.
In that vision the light of Art inters the world until it is shared with the masses and it becomes scientific reality. Walaaa magic!!!
 

Castingshadows

@scentofsamadhi
How people like diffrent smell is another thing, i mean its no any art on producing destilling only sciens

I feel that’s a very scientific reductionist approach to a beautiful methodology of extraction that to me is both art and science. Art is the creation and expression of something beautiful with a purpose and statement. Reducing Oud distillation down to purely science isn’t nearly as fun or poetic as it could be. Why be so stiff brother! Art and science are one and the same with the right perception and that’s a perception I prefer to have.
 

Castingshadows

@scentofsamadhi
I wonder if someone would like to lay out their perspective on what the differences between an artistic creation and a scientific manufacturing process. I do think the whole "Artisanal distillation" stuff is complete malarkey on ONE LEVEL And by that I mean if you control the factors that go into it the result is predictable and based on the operations of principles of physics basically. On another, I think they are trying to communicate something real about their methods. Artisanal is just a poor choice of adjectives and obviously just Oud Marketing Exaggeration Speak which we all accept. Artisanal Organic Royal Kyara Oil Defended From the Last Kyara Trees Defended by Snipers, right!?

I don't think when vendors or resellers say that their oils are artisanal that they mean that Oils are unique art that only they can create. I think if they say that they are... embellishing the truth (?) and just trying to sucker people into making an impulse buy by creating an illusion of "uniqueness" and thus extreme value.

so I call BS and I believe a skilled scientist who is trained in extraction techniques will actually do a better job distilling than someone who is just tweaking things "artistically" without Careful measurement and control of variables which are the hallmarks of scientific techniques. Those who take the artisanal approach literally will lose the ability to reproduce what they've made. I almost wonder if that's the point. If you don't track exactly how you made it then you can say it's one of a kind and will never be made again!


I think what they mean honestly however is that they are making difficult choices about materials and not doing huge runs based entirely on cost cutting measures. I believe some of our oud heroes are indeed accepting higher production costs for the sake of making something that's higher quality.

We should probably just say that, instead of pretending it's a secret art, but I know what they mean I don't blame them for trying to create a little mystique to make some sales even if it is a complete turn off And all else being equal "artisanal nonsense marketing" will always steer me to a different vendor.

I suggest instead of trying to pretend there is some top-secret art form that nobody can know except you, you just say "we would never sacrifice quality for the sake of higher productions and greater profits" or something like that. Just cut the bullshit and be honest and say what you actually DO and stop trying to make it into a fairytale. We will love you and your products even more!


No I cannot 100% prove anything that I'm saying here to whomever the fellow was who demands 100% proof


What would you say about the distillers who can coax out notes through various methods to create an above average product with below average materials? Why can’t it be both art and science? Science only has an outcome that is void of any human emotion on the matter yet once you smell said product art becomes apparent through perception. Surely the yield of an oil is purely scientific and without any sort of human interaction it would remain strictly scientific. I agree with that. But the moment human interaction takes place it becomes art. Take sacred geometry for example. It doesn’t exist without human interaction. It’s purely theoretical. You don’t actually see any lines anywhere or shapes or repeating patterns but when you apply sacred geometry with human artistry something beautiful happens. Mathematical science becomes art and aesthetically it’s some of the most beautiful art known to man. So science in my opinion can be art as soon as human interaction comes into play.

It takes all the fun out of it when it becomes reduced to purely mechanical action. I choose to perceive it as art wether anyone believes so or not. I’m an artist I see art. You’re a scientist you see science. We’re both right.
 

DubOudh

Aster Oudh
The late Richard Feynman physicist...once said...Because I can understand a rose from a quantum perspective doesn't mean I can't enjoy it for its absolute plain beauty. In fact I can see it from two beautiful points or perspectives.

That is a para quote.
 

Castingshadows

@scentofsamadhi
The late Richard Feynman physicist...once said...Because I can understand a rose from a quantum perspective doesn't mean I can't enjoy it for its absolute plain beauty. In fact I can see it from two beautiful points or perspectives.

That is a para quote.


This is an excellent quote thank you! It’s interesting how artistry and science can be so completely disconnected from each other depending on how strong the right or left brain functions in the individual experiencing art or science. I know for myself it’s impossible to see anything but art but then again I understand why someone in the science community will only see science and nothing more.

with that being said, art too can be a science. Take Caravaggio’s approach to chiaroscuro. It’s a technique and nothing more. Anyone can learn said technique and paint identical pieces to Caravaggio and many artists have since done so. If you simply learn how to translate what you see through brushstrokes on a canvas anyone can learn how to master classical oil painting. But would anyone say “that’s just science!” Not at all! It’s art. It’s expression. It makes you feel something. That to me is why Oud distillation is both science and art.
 

Abu Amir

True Ouddict
Give the same batch of wood to 5 different top notch oud distillers and you will get 5 different oils. Each distiller has their own vision for their oil. They use science to accomplish this goal. An analogy would be to give 5 different bakers the exact same ingredients to bake a cake. You will get 5 different cakes.
Its becuse they only destill nothing more u will get diffrint stuff becuse they have no clue what is happening
 

Mr.P

Evoloudtionary Bioudlogist
"It takes all the fun out of it when it becomes reduced to purely mechanical action. "

Not at all... This is an often repeated misconception about the nature of reality that sometimes saddens me a little bit.

I mean this in a lighthearted way and you should go on believing whatever makes you happy because that truly is what matters, but I think this is a logical fallacy and I think truth is actually the exact opposite. The more you know the more interesting it becomes. Things that seem mysterious and magical when they are studies closely review all kinds of interesting patterns and mechanisms and interconnected logical processes that can be understood and explored. It is the most fun you can possibly have.

I'm not talking to anyone in particular but I think people kind of hit a wall of complexity when they Want to understand something new and complex, and very often that steep climb that has to happen it's not something that everyone has the stomach for so it's easier to fall back on more primitive explanations and mystical explanations.

Does it remove the ultimate mysticism and mystical nature of reality? Not one iota unless your mysticism is weak and based on carrying forward old ideas only. Worth the time to understand and explore on this level - Mystery comes into clear focus as aspects of it are resolved through Science.

Of course that is my opinion!
 

Mr.P

Evoloudtionary Bioudlogist
The late Richard Feynman physicist...once said...Because I can understand a rose from a quantum perspective doesn't mean I can't enjoy it for its absolute plain beauty. In fact I can see it from two beautiful points or perspectives.

That is a para quote.


Good antidote to the one Walt Whitman wrote About spacing out during an astronomy lecture and missing the main point, and then not being able to follow the conversation, getting pissed off and rage quitting (my interpretation! Kidding) and then muttering under his breath about scientists and going out and just falling back on his simple childhood experience. Experiencing things as a child is nice too. Hopefully you can do both and again if you're thinking clearly learning more does not take away anything.
 

DubOudh

Aster Oudh
"It takes all the fun out of it when it becomes reduced to purely mechanical action. "

Not at all... This is an often repeated misconception about the nature of reality that sometimes saddens me a little bit.

I mean this in a lighthearted way and you should go on believing whatever makes you happy because that truly is what matters, but I think this is a logical fallacy and I think truth is actually the exact opposite. The more you know the more interesting it becomes. Things that seem mysterious and magical when they are studies closely review all kinds of interesting patterns and mechanisms and interconnected logical processes that can be understood and explored. It is the most fun you can possibly have.

I'm not talking to anyone in particular but I think people kind of hit a wall of complexity when they Want to understand something new and complex, and very often that steep climb that has to happen it's not something that everyone has the stomach for so it's easier to fall back on more primitive explanations and mystical explanations.

Does it remove the ultimate mysticism and mystical nature of reality? Not one iota unless your mysticism is weak and based on carrying forward old ideas only. Worth the time to understand and explore on this level - Mystery comes into clear focus as aspects of it are resolved through Science.

Of course that is my opinion!
I agree with this post.....I would loved to have been around in the very early part of the 20th century when quantum mechanics wasn't even used as a statement of explanation....Many of the modern Physicists were ready to dot the Is and cross the Ts on physics...such was the belief they had in their collective understanding of the nature of reality.....and then the clerk from Switzerland came along after thinking differently about Newtons Laws and turned the previous 250 years of science on its head......cause he thought differently about things that were there all the time.
Nature reveals when someone is ready to understand...The law of flotation was always there...we just figured out the law of displacement.
But it was always there....waiting...
Wonder whats around the corner in these wonderful and exciting times that science is not aware of yet...
Nature never stands still it is always evolving...humans stand till until someone can nudge them along reluctantly....
 

opixs

Oud Fanatic
Art and Science.

I believe that Science is an Art and Art is a Science.

How can we possibly differentiate between the two?

Both have their audiences, some people see things from a scientific perspective and see things outcoming as science likewise some people see things from an artistic perspective and outcome too.

Putting this into the topic we all love...
Distillation can be seen as an art by some people and a science by others, the final product the oil is the same, some see it as art and others see it as science coming together.
Blending oils is the same! Scientifically if you have product A B C and blend them together with different % for a specific outcome, if product A B C always remain the same with and the % of each used is always the same you will always have the same outcome. Science.

Likewise Blending oils is also as an art where you use specific products to gain an outcome, if you use product A B C and you are blending not to achieve something already created and you are creating this blend for the first time, by using your creative senses such as nose to judge the amount to put in and using your senses to create something is an art. Using product A B C to create something without noting down % of each used etc and judging purely on senses and scent it is very difficult to create the same product again and again.

I guess it comes down to what the creator is wanting to achieve, the final outcome. Is the person wanting to have a product which can be duplicated again and again, science is needed, but again creating that first product might have needed artistic senses to create in the first place.
Or
Is the person creating a product purely to enjoy it for what it turns out to be.

Someone can use Art and someone can use Science and the product they will have as an outcome can be the same. It is dependant on what they are wanting to achieve throughout the "creative process". You can give 5 people the same products A B C on 5 different occasions and the end result is always different for all or can be the same for all. Depends which approach they use and what they want as the outcome. The same person can make the same product 5 times if they use a scientific approach to do the same thing again and again. But remember creating that product the first time they may have used creative senses like nose to create the product first time round. Art. Then duplicating it is a science.

Science is Art and Art is science.

Just my two scents :Laugh:
 
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Abu Amir

True Ouddict
It might be easier to start with asking you what oils you've tried.

It might be helpful to try and sample some oils from vendors either here or in the artisinal oud sphere.
I am not saying oils are bad or good, i just wanted to let people to know its all about chemistry when destilling nothing else. And i yes i can make all the oils if i had the wood/plant better and safer than most of all (not all) i have seen some how they do and u can see many failures in setups and in content of oils with phtaletes and othet stuff its becuse the man behaind the still dont know nothing on chemistry. I have seen stupid claims from big names that chemist laugh at and ungortnally many belive thats it, i wanted to give knowledg what i know. And i dont talk only or theroritical in chemistry i do destill and i try to do it freqenley becuse i enjoy ti se what is inside plants
 

Castingshadows

@scentofsamadhi
Its becuse they only destill nothing more u will get diffrint stuff becuse they have no clue what is happening

I ask with all due respect brother but how is it possible to know that all distillers lack any and all knowledge of science when it comes to distillation methods? Would you consider yourself to be the only distiller that can successfully distill materials with open eyes or are there others that you consider to be scientifically knowledgeable about extraction?

"It takes all the fun out of it when it becomes reduced to purely mechanical action. "

Not at all... This is an often repeated misconception about the nature of reality that sometimes saddens me a little bit.

I mean this in a lighthearted way and you should go on believing whatever makes you happy because that truly is what matters, but I think this is a logical fallacy and I think truth is actually the exact opposite. The more you know the more interesting it becomes. Things that seem mysterious and magical when they are studies closely review all kinds of interesting patterns and mechanisms and interconnected logical processes that can be understood and explored. It is the most fun you can possibly have.

I'm not talking to anyone in particular but I think people kind of hit a wall of complexity when they Want to understand something new and complex, and very often that steep climb that has to happen it's not something that everyone has the stomach for so it's easier to fall back on more primitive explanations and mystical explanations.

Does it remove the ultimate mysticism and mystical nature of reality? Not one iota unless your mysticism is weak and based on carrying forward old ideas only. Worth the time to understand and explore on this level - Mystery comes into clear focus as aspects of it are resolved through Science.

Of course that is my opinion!

I think we’re saying the same thing but in different ways. After all I’m an artist by trade so I see art. I use science to create art but I call it art and not science. For me it would be silly to call anyone using an algorithm based program on an electrically engineered device using mathematical results that will repeatedly offer you the same results over and over and over using methodology fine tuned to the point that anyone can learn it as just science. It’s art ya know? No mysticism is needed. There’s so many things in life that we can say is strictly science but the way we perceive it is art. The way it makes us feel is art. Take nature for example. I live really close to the Grand Canyon. There’s a perfectly reasonable and scientific explanation as to why the Grand Canyon is there. Some say it’s a giant hole in the ground caused by water erosion and nothing more yet others say it’s natures way of creating art. And it is art. It’s beautiful and it’s a creation of cause and effect. Some take a dry scientific approach to life and others choose a more colorful approach to life. That’s all I’m saying. I wasn’t implying willful ignorance or refusal to accept science it’s just that I see the world through a different lens while also respecting the laws and limitations and processes of the foundation it’s built upon. Like I said earlier, chiaroscuro is a method of painting that anyone can learn and reproduce the exact same effects. Would you then say that Caravaggio was a scientist or an artist?
 

Abu Amir

True Ouddict
I ask with all due respect brother but how is it possible to know that all distillers lack any and all knowledge of science when it comes to distillation methods? Would you consider yourself to be the only distiller that can successfully distill materials with open eyes or are there others that you consider to be scientifically knowledgeable about extraction?
i am not a destiller i am chemist, but those i have seen 90% dont do it good
 

Mr.P

Evoloudtionary Bioudlogist
Wonder how many people currently distilling agarwood actually have any kind of degree in extractions and separations chemistry? Clearly people are able to produce an excellent oils regardless that's clear as day. BUT If you think this doesn't matter, you are just falling back on antiquated archaic thinking i believe.

Go ahead and try to make your own wine "artisanally" maybe if you spend 15 years at it you will be getting a feel to be able to produce a mediocre artisanal wine.

I'd be more interested in the kind of Artisanal that actually starts with an understanding of the science, and applies it in an artistic way. Which may be what everybody's doing as far as I know because what do I know. But I think some people Portray an image that they are kind of bumbling around artistically and then claiming miracles when they make something decent that anybody with some chemistry training could easily reproduce and probably improve on given materials and scent awareness.

I'm sorry but I really do feel that the word "Artisanal" is something that certain vendors amplify to create a false sense of value, to differentiate something Couldn't really be differentiated based on what it actually was.

Royal supreme imperial vintage kinam kyara are all worn out. What was left? Artisanal! One of a kind!!! You can honestly say no one will ever be able to make it again because You don't really understand what you did maybe? I suppose it's honest at least.
 
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