TheDarkKnight

Oud Fanatic
1) these objects pictured here belong to anyone in your circle, or anyone you know in Vietnam. 1 of them is "white kinam", but it must not be sold? Why the elites include former high ranking officials, and college principals (Vietnam has 7 colleges, although they have hundreds of schools and universities, you know what I meant. The head of 1 of the 7 colleges said the same thing). Why secrecy? Why not sellable? And 1 former agarwood hunter/worker in Central VN said that if he and his family found super agarwood, they must left some there, donot collect all? What is the reason behind that? How come that practice is absence in modern time after 1970s?
I am not quite sure what you mean by "they must leave some there, do not collect all". If you are referring to leaving high-quality pieces in the forest, it is different from leaving high-quality pieces at home instead of selling them to traders. These items are now considered national treasures of Vietnam, and at one point, their trade was considered a national prohibition (I don't know if you are aware of this). The sale of agarwood or kinam was done quickly, exchanged for gold, conducted at night, and right at the forest edge. Later on, more and more forces wanted to seize these goods by placing guards at the forest edge. Any forest workers returning had to report and they controlled all the highest quality pieces (nearly all of them). They were ready to use armed force to ensure their goals and to intimidate if there was no cooperation.

Regarding the elites include former high ranking officials, and college principals you mentioned, I usually prefer not to discuss the people who own such items, as that is their private matter. However, I know that some items are owned by at least three heads of state who led Vietnam during different periods, as well as the sources from which they obtained kinam. Therefore, regardless of who they are, what matters more is your knowledge and experience in distinguishing, evaluating, and classifying kinam. This is far more valuable than the other information.
 

TheDarkKnight

Oud Fanatic
2) do you know??? About a secret auction took place in between 1980s- 2010s (maximum 2014), that there were a broken pieces of "1 precious wood object", the price goes by $25000 per gram for smaller pieces, goes up much higher per gram for pieces that are closer to the large core. What was that type of wood? Is it kinam/kynam? White? Green? Or something else?
I have heard about the auctions and would like to learn more about them. If you or anyone has experience in this field, please share it with me so I can understand better, especially if there are pictures or accompanying information.
 

TheDarkKnight

Oud Fanatic
3) lastly, in your experience, is there possibly a type of Agarwood or Kynam that has the following effects at room temperature aroma:

* aroma helps calming and sleep improvement. Also does the following:

- same object wearing users get blood pressure reduce in a lifespan of months (without changing lifestyle, meds, diet, etc)

- same object sniffing user loses weight (approx 1.5 kg per month) without trying, intention to lose weight.

- same object wearing user improve appetite while bad cholesterols & sugar reduced without changes to his/her medications and lifestyle.

- when sniffed (at <10Celcius temperature), a few individuals notice surroundings get brighter, and colorful. Like someone who just opened their eyes the 1st time after a cataract surgery. Memory also improved for these individuals, particular 1 person with history of brain injury (hypothalamus swollen which affecting morbitz rhythm) - his/her memory signicantly improved in span of 4 months sniffing this wood on a daily basis.

- and more.

What are these effects (from question#3) in fragrance wood world call? Are these illusional effect or placebo effect? Or a real wood (agarwood/kynam wood) can potential affect human health?

A friend experienced this and told me - he thinks this "aroma" had done something to our mind, positively create a mini-AI system inside the brain that regulates body chemicals/hormones which eventually self-manage health positively.
I am aware of some of the content you shared and know a few additional things. All of these are observations (not correlated conclusions) regarding these issues. However, making conclusions is premature and quite subjective without properly designed and meticulously conducted studies that eliminate confounding factors.

From my personal experience, the changes and impacts on the body from kinam are entirely real. This is the difference between wild kinam and CK that I have shared, and it is even distinctly different from kinam and wild agarwood. This value brings about a difference that is not solely based on scent value. There are many things that we or humans have not fully understood yet, similar to how medicine discovered the antibacterial properties of fungi and later formulated antibiotics. Kinam is currently a reservoir of chemical compounds with potential medical applications in the future, akin to ginseng, cordyceps, or lingzhi mushrooms. Increasingly, studies are finding the chemical values in agarwood and kinam that benefit humans and could potentially address complex diseases like cancer in the future. I am still on the path of exploring its values and properties, and I hope to share more detailed insights in future posts, including its physical, chemical, and biological characteristics.
 

iori

親月
Wild kinam is a natural process that arises in the ground and can last for 100th of years according to available data. Cultivated kinam is an artificial way, above the ground and dont need as much time to harvest.
The elderly brother explains it nicely and summarizes it at an excellent way Allahoema baarik:
Honestly i didn't want to write more as i hate arguments and in general i hate talking much, however i see some issues need to be addressed because its completely wrong.
Most of Kyara/Kinam in market is from alive trees and it can be from branch, trunk, roots.
There is some of it comes from dead trees that's for sure, however saying it only forum in the ground isn't correct, also saying the Kyara/Kinam is fossilized or petrified wood is wrong too, there is some reach that stage but many of it isn't.
Also this gentlemen claim also that Kyara/Kinam is from Vietnam and its results from American's bombing etc in the war.
I don't think i need to explain how wrong is that, because if that's true what you going to do about Kyara/Kinam harvested hundreds to thousands years ago?
It's in records of Chinese, Japanese and Vietnamese.
Ensar posted thing long ago about person in borneo with same claim.
"This tree can not produce kinam, because kinam is not a tree. Kinam is fossilized or petrified agarwood, wich forms naturally in the ground, from "all" trees dying in the wild, "all" trees naturally dying in the wild, will form kinam. We cannot form kinam.It's just like claiming..... a Mercedes is a Bentley"
The Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese says the Kyara/Kinam is different trees or species.
Kyara-and-agarwod-tree.jpg

The Nguyen Dynasty's Forbidden Palace is located in Hue, an ancient capital in central Vietnam. Inside the gate are nine large hook-shaped incense burners, each with a relief depicting a Vietnamese specialty. The picture of the Kyara tree, the part where it occurs, and the character (pronounced Keenum), this is Kyara. Of course, there is also a picture of agarwood. If you compare the pictures, it is obvious that the shapes of the branches and leaves, and the parts where they occur are different.
^ Credit to Gyokushodo.
Also Kyarazen have article with other good information regarding the topic.
 

Ibn Abdillah

True Ouddict
I am aware of some of the content you shared and know a few additional things. All of these are observations (not correlated conclusions) regarding these issues. However, making conclusions is premature and quite subjective without properly designed and meticulously conducted studies that eliminate confounding factors.

From my personal experience, the changes and impacts on the body from kinam are entirely real. This is the difference between wild kinam and CK that I have shared, and it is even distinctly different from kinam and wild agarwood. This value brings about a difference that is not solely based on scent value. There are many things that we or humans have not fully understood yet, similar to how medicine discovered the antibacterial properties of fungi and later formulated antibiotics. Kinam is currently a reservoir of chemical compounds with potential medical applications in the future, akin to ginseng, cordyceps, or lingzhi mushrooms. Increasingly, studies are finding the chemical values in agarwood and kinam that benefit humans and could potentially address complex diseases like cancer in the future. I am still on the path of exploring its values and properties, and I hope to share more detailed insights in future posts, including its physical, chemical, and biological characteristics.

I agree with what you write here about the medicinal properties that (wild) oudh can possess.
As far as I'm concerned, we don't have to wait for "modern" science to confirm these kinds of things. Much has been written and said about it in past medicine.
There is often a sentiment that modern science is better and more developed than previous science, I completely disagree with this and believe that this stems from sheer arrogance. We often see that earlier medicine had many solutions for diseases and ailments, which current science does not yet know a way out of.
Anyway, here's a wonderful piece that confirms some previously written things, especially the effect on the brain and sharpness that can achieved with (wild) oudh.


The eminent scholar Ibn el Qayyim who lived between 691 - 751 H of the Islamic calendar, corresponding to 1292 - 1350 CE, narrates in his excellent book "The Prophetic medicine":

Ibn Umar narrates that he used to incense himself with pure oudh or camphor which he added to it and he said: "It is in this way that the Messenger of Allah - peace be upon him - used to incense himself." (source: Muslim 2254)
It is also authentically narrated in connection with the pleasures of the inhabitants of Paradise: "Their incense vessels contain oud" (source: Al Bukhari 3327 and Muslim 2834)

He continues (part of the quotation of this chapter):

"It is warm and dry in the third degree, it loosens constipation, it removes flatulence, removes excess moisture, strengthens the intestines, cheers the heart and it is also useful for the brain, it sharpens the senses, relieves constipation and is also useful against incontinence caused by the cold of the bladder.
Ibn Samjun said:
...It is used internally and externally, you can smoke it alone or with something else and there is a medical significance if it is mixed with camphor by smoking: either will improve the other."
 

Ibn Abdillah

True Ouddict
Honestly i didn't want to write more as i hate arguments and in general i hate talking much, however i see some issues need to be addressed because its completely wrong.
Most of Kyara/Kinam in market is from alive trees and it can be from branch, trunk, roots.
There is some of it comes from dead trees that's for sure, however saying it only forum in the ground isn't correct, also saying the Kyara/Kinam is fossilized or petrified wood is wrong too, there is some reach that stage but many of it isn't.
Also this gentlemen claim also that Kyara/Kinam is from Vietnam and its results from American's bombing etc in the war.
I don't think i need to explain how wrong is that, because if that's true what you going to do about Kyara/Kinam harvested hundreds to thousands years ago?
It's in records of Chinese, Japanese and Vietnamese.
Ensar posted thing long ago about person in borneo with same claim.

The Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese says the Kyara/Kinam is different trees or species.
Kyara-and-agarwod-tree.jpg

The Nguyen Dynasty's Forbidden Palace is located in Hue, an ancient capital in central Vietnam. Inside the gate are nine large hook-shaped incense burners, each with a relief depicting a Vietnamese specialty. The picture of the Kyara tree, the part where it occurs, and the character (pronounced Keenum), this is Kyara. Of course, there is also a picture of agarwood. If you compare the pictures, it is obvious that the shapes of the branches and leaves, and the parts where they occur are different.
^ Credit to Gyokushodo.
Also Kyarazen have article with other good information regarding the topic.

Firstly i like to say to you brother, dont hesistate to give your thoughts and share knowledge. I understand you very well when you say that you hate argumenting and talking much. Sometimes i also hesistate to put myself in some conversations.
I dont say i have knowledge, thats why i repeated more then ones that we are all students. The important thing is that we share the information that has reached us with respect, and i see that you understand that well. So feel free to share your thoughts.

Regarding the point the elderly brother make in the video, i honestly see the context of what he means with the bombing of Vietnam.
I have known about the video for a while and had seen it before.
How I understood and see it is in context. I did not have the impression that he mean that kinam was born for the first time after the bombing, but that was an example of an possible effect it has had on some oudh trees in that region to produce kinam that time.
As far as I understand it, he doesn't rule out that kinam has been around much longer in other places. Wallahoe a'lem.

I actually think that in this way of respectfully sharing opinion and information, we get closer to the core of this subject.
If everything was clear and there was a consensus about kinam information, I don't think we would have had a dialogue about this.
It is precisely important to collect all information together (from all sources, not one kind of source), to get a better understanding and with the aim that we are all better informed. A lot of information has been deliberately withheld to increase the price and sell fake material, I think we can all agree on that.
 
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TheDarkKnight

Oud Fanatic
Honestly i didn't want to write more as i hate arguments and in general i hate talking much, however i see some issues need to be addressed because its completely wrong.
Most of Kyara/Kinam in market is from alive trees and it can be from branch, trunk, roots.
There is some of it comes from dead trees that's for sure, however saying it only forum in the ground isn't correct, also saying the Kyara/Kinam is fossilized or petrified wood is wrong too, there is some reach that stage but many of it isn't.
Also this gentlemen claim also that Kyara/Kinam is from Vietnam and its results from American's bombing etc in the war.
I don't think i need to explain how wrong is that, because if that's true what you going to do about Kyara/Kinam harvested hundreds to thousands years ago?
It's in records of Chinese, Japanese and Vietnamese.
Ensar posted thing long ago about person in borneo with same claim.

The Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese says the Kyara/Kinam is different trees or species.
Kyara-and-agarwod-tree.jpg

The Nguyen Dynasty's Forbidden Palace is located in Hue, an ancient capital in central Vietnam. Inside the gate are nine large hook-shaped incense burners, each with a relief depicting a Vietnamese specialty. The picture of the Kyara tree, the part where it occurs, and the character (pronounced Keenum), this is Kyara. Of course, there is also a picture of agarwood. If you compare the pictures, it is obvious that the shapes of the branches and leaves, and the parts where they occur are different.
^ Credit to Gyokushodo.
Also Kyarazen have article with other good information regarding the topic.
Thank you @iori, it seems like the information you shared is also referenced from Gyokushodo. To further understand this, I would like to share some interesting information:
1/ Kinam harvesting has been done for a long time, and when they harvest, they only harvest trees from the root upwards (trunk) and do not harvest the roots beneath the ground. Harvesting tree roots has only been done for about 40-50 years because the yield of trees producing kinam is rare. The interesting thing is that tree roots can also produce high-quality kinam, not inferior to other forms on the trunk. This may explain why most of the kinam blocks in Japan are harvested from the trunk, while later harvests (found more in markets and newer collectors like Taiwan, Hong Kong, China) are more in soil form.
2/ In principle, kinam oil is very hot for trees, making them lose their ability to metabolize at the site where kinam is produced. Therefore, trees often lose their ability to photosynthesize, metabolize, which makes the leaves turn yellow, and the branches dry up (this is also a way for forest rangers to identify agarwood trees in the forest). As the kinam oil accumulates more, the tree will become more withered and die. So the idea that some people say collecting kinam from dead trees is partly correct, partly unconvincing. Because depending on the timing of harvesting, the tree may still be alive, but it could also be dead. However, oil from dead trees is usually better (due to more kinam oil, wider impact area).
3/ The theory that GM Gaharu mentioned cannot be verified, however, there are quite a few theories about kinam formation. Most of them involve a serious mutation in the tree structure, which can be caused by high heat or pressure sources, or by agents like fungi. These causes can be lightning strikes, wildfires, or other factors. This seems quite plausible in the case PM Gaharu mentioned, but it does not explain why kinam existed over 1000 years ago when similar weapons had not yet been invented, or why kinam is only distributed in regions like Khanh Hoa, Gia Lai,... while bombing occurred throughout Vietnam. Therefore, the theory of US military bombs, I think, still has many unresolved issues.
4/ The petrification of kinam is correct. When kinam oil is accumulated and buried underground for many years, possibly hundreds or thousands of years, it will accumulate many inorganic compounds, becoming hard and losing many properties of tree resin. This type, according to some stone experts I've met, still contains a lot of energy but no longer has the scent. This issue I have not fully understood and am still researching further.
5/ Regarding what you said about the Nguyen Dynasty's Forbidden Palace, it's completely correct. I illustrated it with the photo below (currently still displayed in Hue).
I'm glad to hear your feedback.
 

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TheDarkKnight

Oud Fanatic
"It is warm and dry in the third degree, it loosens constipation, it removes flatulence, removes excess moisture, strengthens the intestines, cheers the heart and it is also useful for the brain, it sharpens the senses, relieves constipation and is also useful against incontinence caused by the cold of the bladder.
Ibn Samjun said:
...It is used internally and externally, you can smoke it alone or with something else and there is a medical significance if it is mixed with camphor by smoking: either will improve the other."
I really appreciate the way you emphasized through bolding the points above. To understand these things, my wife and I had to spend 2 - 3 months wearing and experiencing kinam, with independent information (I didn't let my wife know what it was, just asked about the sensations it brought). These are truly the things we experienced and felt. I will share these later as a story, rather than with the aim of increasing the value of the kinam. I also don't want you to become dependent on this, or to profit from owning kinam.
This is a compound found in many organisms, which can be agarwood or kinam (I have performed it with GCMS technique), its value is still being researched, proving its ability to enhance the immune system and fight cancer.

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jc...Sl4TTDnxCrIkzg2QymTlrTNljTjaeD1WBpn0lHMyTqtQo
 

Ibn Abdillah

True Ouddict
I really appreciate the way you emphasized through bolding the points above. To understand these things, my wife and I had to spend 2 - 3 months wearing and experiencing kinam, with independent information (I didn't let my wife know what it was, just asked about the sensations it brought). These are truly the things we experienced and felt. I will share these later as a story, rather than with the aim of increasing the value of the kinam. I also don't want you to become dependent on this, or to profit from owning kinam.
This is a compound found in many organisms, which can be agarwood or kinam (I have performed it with GCMS technique), its value is still being researched, proving its ability to enhance the immune system and fight cancer.

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jc...Sl4TTDnxCrIkzg2QymTlrTNljTjaeD1WBpn0lHMyTqtQo
Thank you:) your welcome.
I like the way you tested the kinam. Looking forward to your story and experience.
Also thank you for explaining your intention about sharing this information.
 

language scent

True Woodict
One surprising thing is that these samples have a very good scent if you only try small pieces like the Japanese do. However, when you use a lighter, as we do, the scent becomes quite intense and unpleasant. On the other hand, wild kinam can only achieve a good scent with high oil quality pieces. The less oily types (like “toc huong” or “ki huong” that I have shared) have a lighter scent that is harder to detect when used in small pieces and placed on a burner, especially for newcomers. This can lead many to mistakenly believe that ck types are more valuable and have a better scent.
I have close to 10 kyara that looks like normal wood and doesn't have visible oil or resin. It looks like normal white wood. But.........but.......on the heater even .01 = BANG and more of a bang or close as the ones with a lot of oil. This is very strange but the whole kinam topic is strange to begin with.

Moral of the story, wild kinam can achieve good scent with high quality constituents and not high oil. On the other hand, many dripping oil pieces I tried from many places were not pleasing or good. It is never about the looks, it is only about the reactions on the heater.
 

TheDarkKnight

Oud Fanatic
I have close to 10 kyara that looks like normal wood and doesn't have visible oil or resin. It looks like normal white wood. But.........but.......on the heater even .01 = BANG and more of a bang or close as the ones with a lot of oil. This is very strange but the whole kinam topic is strange to begin with.

Moral of the story, wild kinam can achieve good scent with high quality constituents and not high oil. On the other hand, many dripping oil pieces I tried from many places were not pleasing or good. It is never about the looks, it is only about the reactions on the heater.
I understand what you're saying; it might sound absurd to newcomers but is very familiar to those who have encountered such kinam. I am reviewing some characteristics and structures, and upon closer examination under a microscope or magnification, everything will become a bit clearer, and I may share this in a subsequent post.

However, I want to emphasize that kinam oil doesn't need to be black. Even those with lighter colors can produce very good scents, sometimes even better than some darker ones. But the highest quality kinam pieces usually have darker oil, sink, and have a good scent even when burning a very small piece.

Even with this piece, the color might be yellow, lighter, but the sensation it gives is as if it were waxed, a block entirely made of oil, rather than just thinking it would have little oil, with only wood grain and a bit of yellow oil. Color is sometimes just part of the issue. Even when trying some pieces of "toc huong" as I mentioned, there might not be many types of agarwood that can match its scent. So, what if its oil accumulated to the level of "kihuong" or "kinam"?

3956E653-D693-4D7C-A3B1-7D3209F78AB9.jpeg
 

Xerohome

Oud Fan
when I read the whole thread, 2 questions came to my mind:
- what is minimum requirement for a piece to be called Kinam?
- is it possible for large wood piece to contain kinam in one end and for example high grade agarwood at the same time on the other end?
 
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language scent

True Woodict
I understand what you're saying; it might sound absurd to newcomers but is very familiar to those who have encountered such kinam. I am reviewing some characteristics and structures, and upon closer examination under a microscope or magnification, everything will become a bit clearer, and I may share this in a subsequent post.

However, I want to emphasize that kinam oil doesn't need to be black. Even those with lighter colors can produce very good scents, sometimes even better than some darker ones. But the highest quality kinam pieces usually have darker oil, sink, and have a good scent even when burning a very small piece.

Even with this piece, the color might be yellow, lighter, but the sensation it gives is as if it were waxed, a block entirely made of oil, rather than just thinking it would have little oil, with only wood grain and a bit of yellow oil. Color is sometimes just part of the issue. Even when trying some pieces of "toc huong" as I mentioned, there might not be many types of agarwood that can match its scent. So, what if its oil accumulated to the level of "kihuong" or "kinam"?

View attachment 38077
I will post some pictures to show what I am talking about. Even the cross section seems like nothing there and of course on the heater even at the end of the fire it is no oil or resin showing.
 

language scent

True Woodict
@TheDarkKnight my favorite kyara is light color, pale yellow and it is the most famous kyara. of course it has dark parts to it also it just so happened that my piece is light color it is very oily. i also have some of it with darker more hard resin its from the same tree you have sample of both. I guess everyone has their own preferences and different level of nose so we come to the conclusion again that there is no true knowledge but only subjective ideas. some like to follow others like to make their own conclusions.. We should never make the mistake to lead people into thinking something that is only based on personal preference. people who are new to this topic might just think blacker oils are better but this again isnt the case and they might look for only black looking pieces and miss the amazing light pieces. so its not a topic with standard connection between all people.
 

iori

親月
when I read the whole thread, 2 questions came to my mind:
- what is minimum requirement for a piece to be called Kinam?
- is it possible for large wood piece to contain kinam in one end and for example high grade agarwood at the same time on the other end?
1- In short "certain scent once its met it fall under it was it great smelling or not.
2- Two answers :
A- The party believe Kyara is special tree will say no.
B- The party believe Kyara is normal Agarwood tree will say yes.
 

TheDarkKnight

Oud Fanatic
when I read the whole thread, 2 questions came to my mind:
- what is minimum requirement for a piece to be called Kinam?
- is it possible for large wood piece to contain kinam in one end and for example high grade agarwood at the same time on the other end?
1/ Each standard for defining the term "kinam" will differ depending on the country, era, and the purpose of the classifier. Although there will be many similarities in the classification of kinam among different countries, there will be some differences as well. In such cases, an item that is called kinam in one country might not be considered kinam in another and vice versa (excluding the use of fake items or agarwood to sell as kinam). While I know the minimum standard for it, this is based on the viewpoint of my country, and I don't want to discuss things you can't visualize. These concepts need to be experienced in reality, rather than just talking about oil or scent.

2/ In principle, it is entirely possible in nature; it's just a matter of probability. Although the processes of creating agarwood and kinam are different, there are some exceptions. Only when you truly understand what kinam is (similar to the point above) can you identify it. The initial factors creating agarwood (like ants, worms, termites, etc.) followed by the factors creating kinam (like fungal infections, ...) can result in kinam, which can take forms such as ant nests. In reality, I have encountered these pieces, and we often call them ant-repellent kinam (or ant-repelling ki). With the oil characteristics of kinam, most types of ants find it very unpleasant and cannot live in that nest, forcing them to leave and relocate elsewhere. They have a very distinctive and quite impressive scent, although they can't compare to standard kinam.. However, this is very rare and does not at all mean that long-accumulated agarwood will become kinam. It is quite common for a tree to have kinam forming at the base while the upper trunk still has ant nests creating agarwood.
 
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