From Banned to Borneo: My Deep Dive Into the Al Hashimi Oud Vault

[SteveE]

WOWEE!
This is powerful information. I have been attempting to connect human aspects to laboratory analysis data and compilation. Obviously it will take a fortune to obtain all these Oudh's, and as a beginner sniffer I wouldn't know what I am sensing, thus not able to accurately tie to the complex data in my lifetime.

This type of info is phenomenal for someone like me. Actually I first became interested in scent when training Canines our human rules of "Search and Rescue" especially underwater with divers using rebreathers (no bubbles). 20 years of observation of a creature with powerful olfactory discrimination abilities teaches one everything EXCEPT how to discern aroma profiles.
I have great respect, and probably equal envy (although I don't care to admit this) for all of you who have developed such capabilities over time, lots of time.
Kudos to you and all who mentored you along the journey.

That sounds like a fascinating job!

Maybe I can become a professional collector curator and reseller via smaller size samples, and play the spread between the Tola’s and the micrograms. 😆

NAH… Looks like some other people have already figured out pretty well.!!! I’d rather just follow in their wake and enjoy the spoils 🙂

looking at you @RisingPhoenix and others - wow!!!

I love this marketplace of creators and curators and distributors… And to also have the artisans themselves here??? —— !!!! 🤯

 

[Mr.P]

Maybe I can become a professional reseller via smaller size samples, and play the spread between the Tola’s and the micrograms.

NAH… Looks like some other people have already figured out pretty well.!!! I’d rather just follow in their awake and enjoy their stuff

looking at you @RisingPhoenix and others

Getting samples out to a bunch of enthusiasts is a great way to enrich the community as well. The quality of some of the discourse goes way up when everybody is smelling the same thing.

 

[SteveE]

Getting samples out to a bunch of enthusiasts is a great way to enrich the community as well. The quality of some of the discourse goes way up when everybody is smelling the same thing.

Yeah, maybe I’ll offer for a couple small samples to those who are in the scholarly research division - Wouldn’t wanna step in front of the vendor but could help him and my resale value …

def might be interesting on a community level to build a larger nose - brain - analysis data set

Ahhhh For more hours in the day….

 

[Mr.P]

Yeah, maybe I’ll offer for a couple small samples to those who are in the scholarly research division - Wouldn’t wanna step in front of the vendor but could help him and my resale value …

def might be interesting on a community level to build a larger nose - brain - analysis data set

Ahhhh For more hours in the day….

That's an interesting thought, I can think of specific vendors and oils that would be great to analyze so that "the archives" can reflect some really fantastic distillations. You have to wonder what kind of oil is being used to build the databases / reference libraries that form the basis of GCMS interpretation/analysis.

 

[LasLunas]

Well, I can actually kind of prove you wrong in one way here. Recently there was a contest to see who could guess the components of a perfume and I used AI and actually won the contest. So you can at least put one mark on one side of the column about its capabilities.

For Certain this is an AI capability. This is used in molecular biology, immunology, similar activities to predict bio structures, attachment site of biologics, etc., success of targeted biologics for repair of health issues, and more! Yet, all still a function of known information manipulated via mathematics for most probable outcomes.......
When computational abilities via quantum computing, such as those in use at crypto currency generation sites, become a household standard I believe that is when we will begin to experience true "AI."

Just an opinion, not disagreeing with anyone.....I am not a know it all, and such honest exchanges are required to elucidate a current truth among us. My mind is open, flexible and dynamic.

 

[LasLunas]

That sounds like a fascinating job!

Maybe I can become a professional collector curator and reseller via smaller size samples, and play the spread between the Tola’s and the micrograms. 😆

NAH… Looks like some other people have already figured out pretty well.!!! I’d rather just follow in their wake and enjoy the spoils 🙂

looking at you @RisingPhoenix and others - wow!!!

I love this marketplace of creators and curators and distributors… And to also have the artisans themselves here??? —— !!!! 🤯

Thanks, but it was a full time passion; Job is Physical Chemist, Quantum Mechanics and Global Regulatory Compliance Specialist. No where near as educational, intellectually stimulating and just play joyful as Canine Time!

 

[SteveE]

That's an interesting thought, I can think of specific vendors and oils that would be great to analyze so that "the archives" can reflect some really fantastic distillations. You have to wonder what kind of oil is being used to build the databases / reference libraries that form the basis of GCMS interpretation/analysis.

I haven’t Checked into seeing if they’re using FFT on mass spectrometry… I wonder what advanced new tech can figure out these days

In a non-Woo Woo hardcore Gurdjieffian “everything is matter“ view …. In theory you could linearly isolate every molecule in that top tier oil and count up how many moles there are … and store it as a recipe.

Got it.

Then, You need deep pockets and some really specialized tools to be able to synthesize all of those components and/or source them. Imagine they ran into the hundreds, 1000s just guessing??

Let’s turn to ChatGPT uh oh 😆

A typical oud oil—especially a high-grade, aged Sri Lankan oud—contains a remarkably complex array of chemical constituents. Here’s a breakdown based on scientific analyses and traditional distillation practices:

Estimated Number of Distinct Chemical Components

In general, a Sri Lankan oud oil aged in a bottle for 40 years can contain:

• Over 150–250 distinct chemical compounds identified through GC-MS (Gas Chromatography–Mass Spectrometry) analysis.
• These include:
  • Sesquiterpenes (e.g., α-guaiene, δ-guaiene, agarofurans)
  • Chromones (specific to resinated agarwood and a marker of natural infection)
  • Aliphatic hydrocarbons
  • Phenolics, alcohols, ketones, and aldehydes
  • Lactones and esters
  • Trace oxygenated aromatics
• The exact profile evolves dramatically over time as the oil ages in the bottle—new esterifications, oxidations, and breakdown products occur, forming what perfumers often call a “bouquet.”

Factors Influencing the Chemical Complexity

1. Source Material (Aquilaria species): Sri Lankan oud (from Aquilaria subintegra or A. malaccensis) typically produces oils rich in spicy, leathery, and creamy chromones.
2. Distillation Method: Traditional copper-pot water distillation using soaking and fermentation techniques can increase molecular diversity due to bacterial transformation of precursor compounds.
3. Aging Time (40 Years):
   • During this long aging:
     • Polymerization of sesquiterpenes and oxidation of lighter volatiles occur.
     • Formation of macrocyclic musks and resinous compounds.
     • Chemical condensation leads to larger, heavier aromatic molecules not present in fresh oils.
4. Storage Environment: Exposure to air, temperature fluctuations, and even the bottle type can subtly shift the chemical matrix over time.

Comparison with Other Natural Materials

To put this in perspective:

• A fine wine might contain 50–100 aromatic compounds.
• Natural rose oil can have 300+ volatile compounds, many in trace amounts.
• A vintage oud oil rivals or exceeds these in both diversity and olfactory evolution, especially after decades of aging.

Summary
A 40-year-old Sri Lankan oud oil is not just a scent—it’s a living, evolving chemical library of 150 to 250+ unique compounds. Each contributes to the oil’s aroma journey, from animalic base notes to sweet resinous top notes, making it one of the most chemically complex and mysterious natural substances in perfumery.

/Woah

I’m out on a branch now, but – – next - in our spare time - let’s then learn how to combine them in the lab at scale

how many different phases of matter are being mixed together here ???? !! and in which sequence

But wait also we know that these oils age and even oxidize in jars, depending on how they are stored per above

So you have that variable on top of variable

impossibility - one of the most impossible fights against entropy to recreate

It seems so steep of a hill to be able to really figure it out like that. Maybe I’ll be proven wrong but… definitely Explains in part why the stuff is so precious.

And None of this would be happening if we weren’t as humans fascinated by and chasing the transformation, curation and …consumption of these materials from nature.

 

[Mr.P]

I haven’t Checked into seeing if they’re using FFT on mass spectrometry… I wonder what advanced new tech can figure out these days

In a non-Woo Woo hardcore Gurdjieffian “everything is matter“ view …. In theory you could linearly isolate every molecule in that top tier oil and count up how many moles there are … and store it as a recipe.

Got it.

Then, You need deep pockets and some really specialized tools to be able to synthesize all of those components and/or source them. Imagine they ran into the hundreds, 1000s just guessing??

Let’s turn to ChatGPT (oh oh 😆 )
Click Vv


/Woah

I’m out on a branch now, but – – next - in our spare time - let’s then learn how to combine them in the lab at scale

how many different phases of matter are being mixed together here ???? !! and in which sequence

But wait also we know that these oils age and even oxidize in jars, depending on how they are stored per above

So you have that variable on top
Of impossibility - one of the most impossible fights against entropy- it’s just it seems so steep of a hill to be able to really figure it out like that. Maybe I’ll be proven wrong but…

Explains in part why the stuff is so precious.

And None of this would be available if we weren’t as humans fascinated by and chasing the transformation, curation and …consumption of these materials.

Yes indeed - not advocating for any kind of reductionist summarization of oud. But people are using databases to determine if materials are high quality or pure or what not and so it makes sense to feed good data into the machines!

 

[SteveE]

Might as well try to figure out if we can get some fingerprints!

 

[LasLunas]

I haven’t Checked into seeing if they’re using FFT on mass spectrometry… I wonder what advanced new tech can figure out these days

In a non-Woo Woo hardcore Gurdjieffian “everything is matter“ view …. In theory you could linearly isolate every molecule in that top tier oil and count up how many moles there are … and store it as a recipe.

Got it.

Then, You need deep pockets and some really specialized tools to be able to synthesize all of those components and/or source them. Imagine they ran into the hundreds, 1000s just guessing??

Let’s turn to ChatGPT uh oh 😆



/Woah

I’m out on a branch now, but – – next - in our spare time - let’s then learn how to combine them in the lab at scale

how many different phases of matter are being mixed together here ???? !! and in which sequence

But wait also we know that these oils age and even oxidize in jars, depending on how they are stored per above

So you have that variable on top
Of impossibility - one of the most impossible fights against entropy- it’s just it seems so steep of a hill to be able to really figure it out like that. Maybe I’ll be proven wrong but…

Explains in part why the stuff is so precious.

And None of this would be available if we weren’t as humans fascinated by and chasing the transformation, curation and …consumption of these materials.

ABSOLUTELY!
Plain GC/MS might not do it justice, my choice would be GC/MS-OPLC-DA (orthogonal partial least squares - discriminant analyses). analysis over a sufficient sample size, coupled to some mathematical expression of the subjective comments would be soooooo interesting. Any agree? or disagree?

Sequence of constituent addition would be key due to potential reactions/derivative formation between specific entities..So cool... you could have exact same concentrations per constituent, sequentially add aliquots in various orders and yield might be a different scent profile.

This is the why behind my curiosity and consideration of every subjective description, I have data but I am not anything close to qualified to judge the composite aromas of Oudh oils.

This concept is somewhat akin to the following: Provide two, or four or 100 Artisans with the exact same wood samples; procedure by which each extracts, distills, etc. effects yield and composition. Pressure, temp, humidity, water contaminants, equipment, etc...

So the analytical data is just that, DATA. My quest, how to compile it in a meaningful fashion.

Certainly basic testing will reveal adulterants, especially those used by the "unsophisticated" producer, plasticizers and other extenders that do not belong! But that is simplistic.

What is the correlation between the constituents as revealed by laboratory analyses and the "Aroma" of the entire, final composition?

Interesting...

 

[LasLunas]

LMAO...might need some excessively long columns to pull off sampling hundreds of samples due to the 250+ entities, sort of like chemists playing a lab game: Look at the data and discern (GUESS) whose gasoline this is right now. Fun lab game for some! Gasoline is forever changing batch by batch as well.....just as live Oudh oils, no two ever identical even when distilled by the same master from same starting materials. Too many variables, too many entities!

 

[SteveE]

Jayapura from @Al Hashimi
Earthy and lightly smoky opening, with an overlay of an airy menthol component. Now a few minutes and the incense is coming up.

I love this cause I feel like I’m in a forest! That light smell of healthy soil in a non-offensive way reminds me of a lot of times in my life when I worked in the woods.

 

[SteveE]

Did I post something offensive? If so please let me know so that I never offend again. Thanks

No not at all! Post away!

 

[LasLunas]

No not at all! Post away!

Thank you

 

[LasLunas]

Jayapura from @Al Hashimi
Earthy and lightly smoky opening, with an overlay of an airy menthol component. Now a few minutes and the incense is coming up.

I love this cause I feel like I’m in a forest! That light smell of healthy soil in a non-offensive way reminds me of a lot of times in my life when I worked in the woods.

Sounds absolutely divine

 

[LILY]

Thanks a ton.I get stuck too when I see such a long product list.

 

[Al Hashimi]

@Al Hashimi wait… there was supposed to be a BOX??? 😂

Yes @SteveE, after not getting the right design and dead-ends, I am now in China and trying to get this done finally before the Chinese New Year. You and the others who ordered the gift box will be getting a limited edition metal plaque box to hold your oil bottles in. I am just returning from visiting a very special and unique place with Aquilaria Sinensis and Kyara trees (not all plantation as some are over 100 years old), where we are getting involved in the distillation and general production of. The oil here totally blows away any and all Chinese contemporary and vintage oils I have come across.

 

[Saudalhajri]

I actually think that AI is not what people think it is, and it's not actually AI. I was having a conversation with somebody about this yesterday who has spent more time thinking about it then I have, it was pretty fascinating. He was quite deeply concerned with inherent flaws and misleading aspects of the way the technology is being portrayed and used. I wish I could make the compelling cases that he did.

My own experience is that it tends to generate gibberish when it comes to technical details especially about perfume because it's being fed publicly available information, a lot of which is marketing and advertising copy, and personal opinion, and subjective responses and more and more, feeding back in AI generated output.

I'm not saying it's a waste of time to use it as a tool to organize a set of materials that are too complex to tackle yourself. The technology is awesome and super amusing and produces useful output for sure especially about things that are generally well understood, common knowledge... but second guess everything it tells you when it comes to particulars about highly specific details - blends, ratios, i've even seen completely erroneous descriptions of the scent of raw materials etc.. I would look at it as an amusing starting point to conduct research mainly.

You can make your own GPT by feeding it preferences, information, even entire books, which will refine it and make it pretty accurate. You can correct it each time it makes a mistake and itll remember it. then OpenAI decides to release an update that ruins everything you did lol

 

[MaxFromHolland]

What i like about AI is i ask a question and get an answer, then i ask why and get an explanation.
Also like that it understands the context of your question based on previous convos.
Plus it is a never tired assistant for tedious stuff like listing the volatile components of patchouli, sorted by molecular weight; investigate if a supplier has a good reputation amongst artisans; listing public research papers about whatever i want to read something..
I've read many books concluding the author talks rubbish or actually isn't saying anything, same goes for postings on the internet or whatever collegues claim. So yeah, like with those one better stays sceptical, look at the resources that have been used etc.
Also i dont think AI is supposed to replace ones creativity, so of it fails at that: Just the better!

 

[Mr.P]

It is a pretty interesting tool, seems to have incredible potential especially the idea of a proprietary one trained on curated information.

I have heard there's a growing problem as LLM generated text is scooped up and fed back into the models creating this kind of feedback loop that decreases the quality of the content (because there has been exponential growth in the amount of AI generated content of course). I wonder how this will be addressed?