Mr.P

oud<3er
i'm trying to figure out how to phrase this... i'd really like to get it right and hear some opinions on the specific thing that I'm trying to wrap my head around but when I start writing as it seems to get complicated to explain briefly...

"Oud" is a funny category because it includes plants in different species and even different genera. At times it seems to be like this one category of raw material includes a wider range of aromatic variation than pretty much any other comparable category. Let's say we compare "oud" as a category to "rose" or "sandalwood" and each category includes all typical species in that category and typical extraction methods. I think it's safe to say that the depth and breath of the spectrum of olfactory variation among the ouds will greatly exceed those among the sandalwoods or roses.

Some other categories are Jasmine oils, vetivers, patchoulis, lavenders, nerolis, cedars, and geraniums. None of these (to me) delivers the breadth and depth of variation that the ouds deliver.

I'm wondering a couple of things… Mainly if anybody can think of another type of plant that has this much variation (I can think of only one and I want to keep it to myself until I hear what other people come up with on their own); and second: whether it may just reflect the amount of energy I've put into scrutinizing oud, or if it really is related to the actual degree of chemical variation in oud relative to other materials

Because of the complex ecological nature of oud formation (for example damage by humans or insects followed by secretion of resin followed by gradual oxidation and light fermentation in the tree as it ages) it makes sense to me that there is so much variation in this particular material.

If I were to make the perhaps absurd proclamation that I have determined that "oud is the most complex and diverse category of fragrant materials" what would your thoughts be on this?

I can think of one other only that gives it a run for its money, but I don't entirely trust my judgment so I want to hear what other people think.
 
i'm trying to figure out how to phrase this... i'd really like to get it right and hear some opinions on the specific thing that I'm trying to wrap my head around but when I start writing as it seems to get complicated to explain briefly...

"Oud" is a funny category because it includes plants in different species and even different genera. At times it seems to be like this one category of raw material includes a wider range of aromatic variation than pretty much any other comparable category. Let's say we compare "oud" as a category to "rose" or "sandalwood" and each category includes all typical species in that category and typical extraction methods. I think it's safe to say that the depth and breath of the spectrum of olfactory variation among the ouds will greatly exceed those among the sandalwoods or roses.

Some other categories are Jasmine oils, vetivers, patchoulis, lavenders, nerolis, cedars, and geraniums. None of these (to me) delivers the breadth and depth of variation that the ouds deliver.

I'm wondering a couple of things… Mainly if anybody can think of another type of plant that has this much variation (I can think of only one and I want to keep it to myself until I hear what other people come up with on their own); and second: whether it may just reflect the amount of energy I've put into scrutinizing oud, or if it really is related to the actual degree of chemical variation in oud relative to other materials

Because of the complex ecological nature of oud formation (for example damage by humans or insects followed by secretion of resin followed by gradual oxidation and light fermentation in the tree as it ages) it makes sense to me that there is so much variation in this particular material.

If I were to make the perhaps absurd proclamation that I have determined that "oud is the most complex and diverse category of fragrant materials" what would your thoughts be on this?

I can think of one other only that gives it a run for its money, but I don't entirely trust my judgment so I want to hear what other people think.
Oud as aromatic emergence in Agarwood is so diverse because of the microbiological component in its formation - not only immune response of the tree - the exudation of the resinous sap (like in Frankincense for instance- which entire aroma is the result of the plant production) but for the attacking microbes - fungi and bacteria, whose contribution is so crucial.
The proper and deeply explanatory term for that is 'Microbiological Consortium' - a large group of multiple microorganisms working together or along each other, and in every single instance - of every single tree (or a branch) that particular group reflects the unique environment where the tree grows and what kind of coincidental collective of fungi and bacteria happen to be around at that moment. Everything influences such conicidence of choise (climate, type of soil, type of vegetation - the all-important 'Terroir' and 'micro-climate' down to very specific location (like growing on the northern versus southern slope of the same mountain) - choice of chance uniquely combining some out of nearly 50 possible different microorganisms at any given wounded bit on a tree - anywhere from 3 to 20 different microbes may be present at any given moment, collectively representing of the microflora at the forest floor, at the surrounding trees (for instance, a bacteria that usually lives typically on Mango tree' leaves, apparently is found in the Kinam formations), plus those brought through air from afar and those brough by the insects by direct contact - specifically by ants and termites (who both also grow fungi as little gardeners in their colonies); and - the termites are also identified as a peculiar and possibly crucial factor in the wild Kinam formations).
That means that a different profile of infectious agents can vary even on a single tree - at its different parts, let alone between different jungles at different locales. Thus, the overall number of the possibilities for combinations (which types and how many different microbes are present together at once) - plus quantative variations of combinations (how much of each of the microbes is present) - is practically limitless - what creates nearly endless diversity in shades of the resulting aromatic compounds (factoring in the Time itself of course - the greatly varying duration of the fermenting and the immune responsing - all working in cycles - initial 'damage (or just the working of the advanced aging - in now so rare very old Agarwood trees) -the immune response - the infection- the new immunse response- the reinfection again - new fungal attacks and new immune responses, and so on and so forth... - the longer the better).
True, that some microbes are more characteristic, more typical and more prevalent and can be associated with certain locales - creating the image of 'typical' profiles of the scent of Oud from those locales (for instance 'Malinau' versus 'Tarakan' or 'Koh Kong' versus 'Pursat') - but as the real Biology of living Nature is a very messy, overflowingly rich and in ever-changing Play that refuses to be neatly categorized for human convenience, there is plenty room for surprises, deviations, variations
- as I said earlier, even on the same tree at any given moment.
Microbes' life cycles directly contribute to the aromas of some other plants too - mostly of roots submerged in soil (like of Nagarmotha and even Vetiver - with microbes living in symbiosis on the plant's roots);
but! - another one other stiking, perfumery-crucial (and fabulous) example other than Ouds is Iris (Orris) root essence, which is fully microbiological in origin - meaning that its entire scent is the result of the microbiological transformation of otherwise odorless - utterly bland - starchy Orris root - that needs to be stored for years and years after its harvest - for the aromatic creation to take place - as the root is eaten by the bacteria (originally - naturally but sparcely present on it; nowadays it is introduced through inoculation - to speed up the (otherwise very slow) process);
the bacteria eats and excretes the fragrant metabolic products - literally creating the fabulous aromatic essence by digesting the cellulose-like odorless precursors in the root. Unlike with Ouds though, the diversity of the microorganisms in play is absolutely minimal - there are only two bacteria types identified as responsible - one is aerobic and one is anaerobic. And that explains - that however fabulous the scent of Orris root essences is, the profile of the aroma is much less diverse between various locales and even species of the Iris plants - in comparison to Ouds, resulting in far more similar Orris essences, with much less variety in the key ingredients - in fact down to three isomers of a single type of a molecule - as the key fragrant ingredient - the highly prized irones):
In the Orris root example, it is more about the length of that process, of slow transformation (and the initial growth time for the plants), so the percentage of that precious essence will climb up from the absolute zero to something worth extracting - and as with Ouds, Time is the most precious investment; to produce minimally adequate Orris root essence, 8-9 years are required - as minimum - all up to 20 years in making - if you have that sort of patience and the financial backing (and the mice will not eat the roots in the storage). That is why the truly high-end refined Orris essences (true Absolutes) are price-comparable to artisanal wild-Oud oils.
Another even more odd example of 'Noble Rot' (and essentialy closer to Oud formation than of the Orris root oils) - is the essence from the sediment of the Cognac production - so called Vine Lees - the yeast (that dies out once it consumed all the sugar in the grape juice - or deliberately killed to stop the fermentation) which is collected at the bottoms and the walls of the vine and brandy barrels, and then distilled into a powerful fruity-pungent-sparkly essential oil, called Lie-de-Vin - or the 'Cognac oil'.
Since the microbiological profile in the production of vine is very strictly controlled (as it greatly affects the flavour) the variety of the yeast is also minimal on comparison to the 'zoo' of the microbes in Oud formation- resulting in practically only two varieties of the the same essence -'Green' (Lie de Vin Vert) and 'White' (Lie de Vin blanc) - Green is more complete (and aromatically more interesting to my taste - like a champagne - on steroids), old-fashioned, distilled in old copper stills, left unrefined - while 'White' is distilled in stainless steel, filtered thoroughly and rectified (resulting in more uniformal Grappa-like-sweet'n'sour-grapes'-seeds scent).
These three examples - Oud, Orris root and Cognac's Lie-de-Vin - are all a result of a dramatic transformation, of initially odorless (or minimally weakly aromatic - like Grapes) material - into intensely fragrant and captivating essence - by the means of radical microbiological transformation - fermentation of various types. Yet the remarkable diversity of the Oud forming microbes - fungi and bacteria creates unmatched variety in the aromas of Ouds - from different trees from different places, at different stages of life(decay really) factored by the magic of Time.
There are two other aromatic materiala with unusual non-direct originations that come to mind - both emerge as the result of very complex biological trasnformations by more than one player:
- one is Honey (or Beeswax) absolute - a result of interaction between bees and flowers, and what bees regurgitate and excrete really further down - yeah, now you will live with the lovely fact that Honey is the bees' vomit 🙂 no microbes are directly involved though.
-and the second example is none other than the illustrious, magical, weird Ambergris - beginning with the indigestion of hard and sharp squids' beaks in the stomachs of the sperm whales (cachalots), the intense protective response by their stomachs in producing the key element - the covering enveloping waxy mass, then expelling it (a vomit again) and then lengthy environmental transformation - mostly oxidation (by air) and slow multi-paths' degradation under influence of light and sea water, to transform initially nearly odorless Ambrein - into a variety of magical fragrant elements of Ambergris - with incredible diversity in shades of the resulting Ambergris - yet, no major microbial contribution is present in this case of such formation, the chemistry is more simple and straightforward than with the Ouds - only eaten squids and irritated whales' stomachs as the biology goes 😉 the rest is inorganic - Air, Light and Time.
That is all I can think of - as non-straightforward, even convoluted - netiher botanical nor animalic formation of aroma-materials - that results in diversity, variety, and surpises - from a stench - to the sublime...
The bottom line - Oud IS idiosyncratic - unique, unusual, unlike anything else, complex, peculiar and surprising.
 
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Mainly if anybody can think of another type of plant that has this much variation
Leading question - does variation matter at all? Like, tea is arguably more varied, or maybe coffee, wine for sure, everything from a sugar bomb to a smell of barn to anything. But, process and terroir account for much of the variation, but also botrytus (sp), bret, and all other manner of fun interactions, or even just sitting on the lees.

Put another way, if there were a natural that exploded in a complex scent journey, better than oud by 10x, but, variation was pretty limited, only processing method, plant is plant, would that diminish it in any way?

oud is the most complex and diverse category of fragrant materials
Possibly. I think it's prob top 3 likely, with the above caveat that I don't think diversity matters much compared to complexity. I think by the numbers there's other naturals with more unique aromatic chemicals, but certainly less pleasing.

I sometimes wonder if another chemical were grown at the same general price point and care/detail or requiring picky yields to match oud, would it compete? No idea on the answer, and nothing jumps to mind, but such a plant could exist
 
example of 'Noble Rot' (and essentialy closer to Oud formation than of the Orris root oils) - is the essence from the sediment of the Cognac production - so called Vine Lees
Noble rot is diff than just sitting on the lees fwiw. Thats the botrytus I mentioned, a specific mold/fungus thing, vs just sitting on the dead yeast. I imagine you could combine the concepts and maybe for cognac, they do, Im not familiar, but generally noble rot is its own category of things.

Sorry to be pedantic 🙂
 
Noble rot is diff than just sitting on the lees fwiw. Thats the botrytus I mentioned, a specific mold/fungus thing, vs just sitting on the dead yeast. I imagine you could combine the concepts and maybe for cognac, they do, Im not familiar, but generally noble rot is its own category of things.

Sorry to be pedantic 🙂
Well, I used the 'Noble Rot' in the broadest, general sense - as a microbial transformation that creates highly desirable result by rotting the source material while in any other example of rot the result is not noble at all - rather trashy and disgusting;
Oud in that sense it totally a 'noble rot', perhaps the most noble of all the noble rots - while you of course are totally right about the grapes' Botrytis.
Lie-de-Vin essence is the end product and a lucky by-product of post-fermentation that created vine and cognac before that - which both are considered quite 'noble' products - in their best examples 😉
Peculiar fact about the Botrytis fungus - when it attacks the grapes, it creates the raw material for fine and particular dessert vines, but when it attacks Roses, the result is just a vegetative horror - destroyed flowers in full bloom that die in the ugliest possible way - without any useful redemption 🙂 So the rot becomes noble only when the circumstances are aligned and lucky.
 
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All interesting points. Agreed that oud is generally partially microbial, that's what I meant when I said it was "ecological" - a product of an interaction among species, and its amazing aromatic diversity makes sense in light of that.

It would be interesting to separate fermented materials from those which are produced simply by the plant itself. Musk, ambergris, civet, castoreum, hyraceum etc. are all the result of ecological interactions and I'm sure there are quite a few more. but I consider that a separate question so let's throw all those materials into the pot along with the ones that are just from a single plant without fermentation. All of the above.

The question I was hoping this particular thread could focus on is what other materials if any present such a broad spectrum of top, middle, and base notes in what we generally consider a single material. both simultaneous variation in individual specimens and the incredible variation amongst the variety of specimens that exist.

I can think of one, and it is not a fermented type material but I don't want to debate whether I'm right or not I want to hear if other people can think of some equivalent raw material that presents anywhere near as broad and as diverse a spectrum of aromatic facets as oud?

For example I can perceive all of the following aromas in what I considered to be the authentic ouds i own:

cheesy
musky
chocolate-like
vanillin
woody
earthy / mulchy
fungal
peppery
floral
sweet
sour
mineral-like
salty
bitter
phenolic
plastic / vinyl-like
dried fruity
melon
benzaldehyde
wintergreen
nagarmotha-like
tobacco-like
musty
honey
salivary notes
fecal notes
sassafrass / safrole
barnyard / manure
hay
aquatic
spicy
cinnamon
rose
peat moss
decayed wood
orris-like
etc.

I'm sure we could come up with dozens more based on the many eloquent descriptions I've seen written here by reviewers over the years. What other material would merit such a wide range of adjectives?
 
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What other material would merit such a wide range of adjectives?
One needs only to look at the fact that the recent oud book borrowed heavily from wine and coffee tasting scent/flavor wheels for your answer. Not sure which is the more nuanced organ but they have the advantage that scent and flavor result in myriad sense and variety. And the oud one ended up a smaller wheel
 
One needs only to look at the fact that the recent oud book borrowed heavily from wine and coffee tasting scent/flavor wheels for your answer. Not sure which is the more nuanced organ but they have the advantage that scent and flavor result in myriad sense and variety. And the oud one ended up a smaller

I'm not familiar with the book in question, but I was not trying to compare to food and beverages and all of that… definitely if you bring in wine and cheese it's a different story.

I apologize that my question was not very clear and I'm ready to move on here, but the question I was trying to ask is: can anybody think of another material in the perfumer's palette that covers such a wide spectrum of aromas as oud?
 
I'm ready to move on here, but the question I was trying to ask is: can anybody think of another material in the perfumer's palette
Yea, didn't mean to dereail into foods, just very relevant and well built market that shows that with scale and investment and interest that nuance and specialization, yes.

I mean, marijuana smells kinda followed the path but not what you're looking for. Just that with investment and cataloging and a reason. I said above if there were the amount of money being thrown around into some naturals, potentially. Khus, rose, and some others contain more aromatic chemicals, but without ME interest or massive money and industry behind it, it remains more commodity good than into specialization. Patch certainly has variance, but also still more or less generally considered commodity with only minor variations in processing..

Curious more what your example is, but I still maintain many crops with interest and specialization and money, will invariably cause more diversity in scent, terroir and a higher tier offerings. Even lowly wheat + money, or hops, yields a wildly varied palate. Thogh by default I fall back to non perfumers items, only because they emphasize the scale and money needed to support such.

And I personally still think that just amount of variation is far less important than complexity and quality. Something that is consistent and amazing is just as good
 
Yea, didn't mean to dereail into foods, just very relevant and well built market that shows that with scale and investment and interest that nuance and specialization, yes.

I mean, marijuana smells kinda followed the path but not what you're looking for. Just that with investment and cataloging and a reason. I said above if there were the amount of money being thrown around into some naturals, potentially. Khus, rose, and some others contain more aromatic chemicals, but without ME interest or massive money and industry behind it, it remains more commodity good than into specialization. Patch certainly has variance, but also still more or less generally considered commodity with only minor variations in processing..

Curious more what your example is, but I still maintain many crops with interest and specialization and money, will invariably cause more diversity in scent, terroir and a higher tier offerings. Even lowly wheat + money, or hops, yields a wildly varied palate. Thogh by default I fall back to non perfumers items, only because they emphasize the scale and money needed to support such.

And I personally still think that just amount of variation is far less important than complexity and quality. Something that is consistent and amazing is just as good
I wasn't really talking about good or bad - very simply, are there any other plants that produce that kind of rich aromatic diversity?

I will definitely share the one I have in mind after giving other folks a chance to chime in here.

The other question I have is whether the recognition of all of these subtleties is a function my own olfactory adaptation through prolonged study or if it reflects a unique level of chemical / aromatic complexity in the material itself. this may be a question that cannot be answered without resorting to philosophy, but is it in my mind or is it in the oud??
 
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I wasn't really talking about good or bad - very simply, are there any other plants that produce that kind of rich aromatic diversity?

I will definitely share the one I have in mind after giving other folks a chance to chime in here.

The other question I have is whether the recognition of all of these subtleties is a function my own olfactory adaptation through prolonged study or if it reflects a unique level of chemical / aromatic complexity in the material itself. this may be a question that cannot be answered without resorting to philosophy, but is it in my mind or is it in the oud??
Oud essence is truly unique - not just because of its exceptional chemical complexity (there are some other very complex aromatics -like Labdanum and Jasmine - comprised of multiple hundreds of molecules, many of which are still not elucidated - structurally decoded),
But because of some truly unique types of molecules - not encountered in any other aromatic material in Nature:
Nature is usually thrifty and economic - using the same successful chemistry paths over and over again even in totally different scents- though in various combinaitons and ratios - for instance, a same molecule can be present in Mandarine peels and Eucalyptus leaves (Cineol - at 0.4% and over 70% respectively), or in Rose bloom as in dried Clove bud (Eugenol - at fractions of % and up to 90% respectively);
while (on average) Oud oils share some compounds with other known aromatics (like in instances of Nagarmotha, Gurjun Balsam, Oakmoss and Hops) there are particular molecules in Ouds that can't be found anywhere else in Nature, especially from the group of Eremophile Sesquiterpenes but the most unique are the 'quirky' Furans and really odd Chromones (collectively comprising - on occasions - over 50% of the essence) - setting Ouds firmly apart even from such particular materials as Oakmoss (with its own rare chemistry - coming from the symbiosis - of two organisms living one into another one).
Now, would you share your insight - about another aromatic rivalling the complexity and the uniqueness of Oud?
- since I can' think of anything else coming close.
 
Oud essence is truly unique - not just because of its exceptional chemical complexity (there are some other very complex aromatics -like Labdanum and Jasmine - comprised of multiple hundreds of molecules, many of which are still not elucidated - structurally decoded),
But because of some truly unique types of molecules - not encountered in any other aromatic material in Nature:
Nature is usually thrifty and economic - using the same successful chemistry paths over and over again even in totally different scents- though in various combinaitons and ratios - for instance, a same molecule can be present in Mandarine peels and Eucalyptus leaves (Cineol - at 0.4% and over 70% respectively), or in Rose bloom as in dried Clove bud (Eugenol - at fractions of % and up to 90% respectively);
while (on average) Oud oils share some compounds with other known aromatics (like in instances of Nagarmotha, Gurjun Balsam, Oakmoss and Hops) there are particular molecules in Ouds that can't be found anywhere else in Nature, especially from the group of Eremophile Sesquiterpenes but the most unique are the 'quirky' Furans and really odd Chromones (collectively comprising - on occasions - over 50% of the essence) - setting Ouds firmly apart even from such particular materials as Oakmoss (with its own rare chemistry - coming from the symbiosis - of two organisms living one into another one).
Now, would you share your insight - about another aromatic rivalling the complexity and the uniqueness of Oud?
- since I can' think of anything else coming close.
I was hoping to give a few more folks a chance to chime in but I will gladly send that to you by direct message for the time being 🙂
 
Oud essence is truly unique - not just because of its exceptional chemical complexity (there are some other very complex aromatics -like Labdanum and Jasmine - comprised of multiple hundreds of molecules, many of which are still not elucidated - structurally decoded),
But because of some truly unique types of molecules - not encountered in any other aromatic material in Nature:
Nature is usually thrifty and economic - using the same successful chemistry paths over and over again even in totally different scents- though in various combinaitons and ratios - for instance, a same molecule can be present in Mandarine peels and Eucalyptus leaves (Cineol - at 0.4% and over 70% respectively), or in Rose bloom as in dried Clove bud (Eugenol - at fractions of % and up to 90% respectively);
while (on average) Oud oils share some compounds with other known aromatics (like in instances of Nagarmotha, Gurjun Balsam, Oakmoss and Hops) there are particular molecules in Ouds that can't be found anywhere else in Nature, especially from the group of Eremophile Sesquiterpenes but the most unique are the 'quirky' Furans and really odd Chromones (collectively comprising - on occasions - over 50% of the essence) - setting Ouds firmly apart even from such particular materials as Oakmoss (with its own rare chemistry - coming from the symbiosis - of two organisms living one into another one).
Now, would you share your insight - about another aromatic rivalling the complexity and the uniqueness of Oud?
- since I can' think of anything else coming close.
thank you for these thoughtful and insightful comments
 
Other aromatics sharing complexity with oud - after much head scratching I’ve come up with frankincense - lots of diversity but not the wood resin distillation nuances of oud, and possibly, copal or Palo Santo - huge range of protiums with very unique smells from the wood. A bit polarizing but I do enjoy the fresh copal hits from time to time.

There is definitely more variation in frankincense by far than I imagined when I was younger - maydi has musky/ urine notes, tigray has these crazy sweet waxy notes that are not found anywhere else; serrata can smell almost like dill, sacra like a pine and citrus, carterii like ancient dry forests. I also feel like the different extraction methods make this interesting… For instance that ancient dry forest aroma is something I associate with a particular solvent extract of carterii
 
I would have voted vetiver as it is both complex and varies with terroir, or labdanum which also is complex and varies with terroir, but overal fewer different locations.
Sandalwood i think is less complex but quite a few subspecies and lots of variation in terroir so that likely be your other botanical.. 🙂
 
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