pricing vintage patchouli

[Mr.P]

I had somebody reach out to me about purchasing some of my older patchouli oils which go back to the early 90's... I was intrigued for a moment until I thought about trying to price something like this. How do you price something that is an inexpensive product to begin with but is essentially unplaceable because of its age and the unique aroma it acquired with time? i'm not even sure it has a monetary value because no matter how much money I exchange for it that money would probably not enable me to replace it should I regret the sale in the future.

 

[roflwaffle]

And yes roflwaffe, I totally agree there is a big difference between 1990s and 2010s! In aromatic expression, quality and pricing - just thought I would share my own real market example as a base comparison for his question.

Yea, sorry i dont think it came out well. It was less the obvious points (yea, the extra 20 years makes a diff in aroma), but more that supply itself falls off a cliff before the big spike in interest in essential oils in the 2010s.

Like, as popular as patch was for the hippie movement, you'd think there'd be a ton discovered, but unfortunately like 90% of it produced during that time was headshop patch, which, while the labels denote 'essential oil', is almost exclusively cut with DPG and other dilutions. Didnt really get much better in the 80s or 90s without really looking for it. A travesty really, since there's so much of it out there, and it was cheap as dirt back then, so no real sane reason to heavily dilute. The real stuff is out there, just in miniscule amounts. And nobody at that time was thinking 'maybe i should set some of this aside to age'. I'm pretty sure much of it was tossed for being 'old'/expired to boot back in those days. 😢

I think today, current mass production has moved away from iron still and towards a 'cleaner' patch, which affects its aging and scents. Not really sure the reasoning, but the majority i see is done in stainless more towards a 'light' patchouli.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Yea, sorry i dont think it came out well. It was less the obvious points (yea, the extra 20 years makes a diff in aroma), but more that supply itself falls off a cliff before the big spike in interest in essential oils in the 2010s.

Like, as popular as patch was for the hippie movement, you'd think there'd be a ton discovered, but unfortunately like 90% of it produced during that time was headshop patch, which, while the labels denote 'essential oil', is almost exclusively cut with DPG and other dilutions. Didnt really get much better in the 80s or 90s without really looking for it. A travesty really, since there's so much of it out there, and it was cheap as dirt back then, so no real sane reason to heavily dilute. The real stuff is out there, just in miniscule amounts. And nobody at that time was thinking 'maybe i should set some of this aside to age'. I'm pretty sure much of it was tossed for being 'old'/expired to boot back in those days. 😢

I think today, current mass production has moved away from iron still and towards a 'cleaner' patch, which affects its aging and scents. Not really sure the reasoning, but the majority i see is done in stainless more towards a 'light' patchouli.

Think diluting was the easiest way to offer patch to a large group wanting to fit in but not ready for the heavy and staining stuff.. Patch coeur or light are still nowhere to be seen in the common stores as it doesn't fit the pricing scheme.

 

[roflwaffle]

Think diluting was the easiest way to offer patch to a large group wanting to fit in but not ready for the heavy and staining stuff.. Patch coeur or light are still nowhere to be seen in the common stores as it doesn't fit the pricing scheme.

I was under the impression that light was just patch normally distilled in stainless stills, which are the vast majority of stills in operation today, particularly at scale, no additional costs, which is an entirely different realm than coeur. Apologies if i've got the wrong of it.

The Difference Between Dark and Light Patchouli Essential Oil -

Despite my number of years in the aromatherapy profession, it continues to amaze me the variety of essential oils available, […]

sedonaaromatics.com

the iron leeching itself causes reactions that differentiates, but 0 cost differences or even light being cheaper since its more industrial scale, same time/labor just larger yields.

 

[roflwaffle]

forum acting up, double post

 

[MaxFromHolland]

I was under the impression that light was just patch normally distilled in stainless stills, which are the vast majority of stills in operation today, particularly at scale, no additional costs, which is an entirely different realm than coeur. Apologies if i've got the wrong of it.

The Difference Between Dark and Light Patchouli Essential Oil -

Despite my number of years in the aromatherapy profession, it continues to amaze me the variety of essential oils available, […]

sedonaaromatics.com

the iron leeching itself causes reactions that differentiates, but 0 cost differences or even light being cheaper since its more industrial scale, same time/labor just larger yields.

Yes that makes sense. Yet if i walk to a random healthstore and grab a bottle it is dark harsh with iron notes. So i assumed it is cheaper than the light. Perhaps the light versions are more in demand in the scent industry leaving the dark for budget retail purpose.

 

[roflwaffle]

Yes that makes sense. Yet if i walk to a random healthstore and grab a bottle it is dark harsh with iron notes. So i assumed it is cheaper than the light. Perhaps the light versions are more in demand in the scent industry leaving the dark for budget retail purpose.

Hm, interesting. Yea, not sure. Could be I have the backwards of it, the large producers are still churning out with their 50+ year old industrial size operations, and the stainless dudes are the smaller production/newer production with just better measuring and consistency. Unsure if the 'artisinal' then ends on the 'historical steel deg' end or the 'small batch, modern science' end of the spectrum though, or both. Everything I've seen indicates the iron notes are what make for a better aged product though, which perfumers generally don't care about, they want consistency and ready to go now (rather like how distillers making things to age will leave in a more generous cut as the heads and tails give a lot more quality in a long age, but a tighter cut will taste better today).

 

[Loulikesoud]

I recently had the opportunity to learn a lot more about patchouli production, harvesting in Indonesia. Apparently there are a variety of patchoulis produced in that region (cultivars) with high altitude tending to be the most prestigious and well-regarded. Lesser oils (higher acid values, high iron contents) are often sent to molecular distillation where the sequisterpenes are reduced and/or removed to produce a standardized MD patchouli which has less of the mint, camphoraceous and other accessory notes that often dull down after long aging with trace oxygen.

I was given a sample of Sridikalang patchouli that the supplier warrants is 50% patchouli alcohol. This is going to Mr. P for evaluation. It is a few months old but to my nose considerably smoother than many patchoulis I've experienced after years of aging. This in many ways smells kinda vintage! I'm curious on his feedback. The supplier says this oil was made with a different, more laborious, much lower yielding approach regarding the vegetative matter being used in the distillation. It was distilled in stainless with only the last bit of the delivery device being iron which has darkened it somewhat. All MD oils I have seen are more or less completely colorless and have Fe <0.5 ppm and very low acid values. Acid values for patchouli are important...the lower the number, the better the distillation conditions and the more stable the oil will be.

Lou

 

[Mr.P]

I recently had the opportunity to learn a lot more about patchouli production, harvesting in Indonesia. Apparently there are a variety of patchoulis produced in that region (cultivars) with high altitude tending to be the most prestigious and well-regarded. Lesser oils (higher acid values, high iron contents, and are often sent to molecular distillation where the sequisterpenes are reduced and/or removed to produce a standardized MD patchouli which has less of the mint, camphoraceous and other accessory notes that often dull down after long aging with trace oxygen.

I was given a sample of Sridikalang patchouli that the supplier warrants is 50% patchouli alcohol. This is going to Mr. P for evaluation. It is a few months old but to my nose considerably smoother than many patchoulis I've experienced after years of aging. This in many ways smells kinda vintage! I'm curious on his feedback. The supplier says this oil was made with a different, more laborious, much lower yielding approach regarding the vegetative matter being used in the distillation. It was distilled in stainless with only the last bit of the delivery device being iron which has darkened it somewhat. All MD oils I have seen are more or less completely colorless and have Fe <0.5 ppm and very low acid values. Acid values for patchouli are important...the lower the number, the better the distillation conditions and the more stable the oil will be.

Lou

awesome thanks for that info can't wait to smell it.

 

[roflwaffle]

Lesser oils (higher acid values, high iron contents, and are often sent to molecular distillation where the

Interesting, I was under the impression that the iron content was just from steel still or not steel still. You mention later that one place is mostly stainless then they add a small bit of iron, so it's off to seem to imply a full iron still can only produce a lesser oil, even though that is the traditional way, and plenty of still dark patchouli's out there of artisanal grade (it's still generally also the one selected for aging)

But thanks for your information, super neat stuff. Does really show with these things that information gets heavily lost or skewed as it leaves the region and into resellers hands (as it tends to be with most things)

 

[Loulikesoud]

It's more the handling and the fact that Fe(III) oils are likely to accelerate in aging.

 

[Mr.P]

I have a number of moderately old (in my possession since mid 90s ) iron containing and iron free oils. What is kind of a drag is a number of the dark ones are so thick that they don't pour, they are like a grease at this point and it is a pain in the butt when you want to work with them. these were from high end suppliers ( Oshadhi in this case) and I don't have any question that the oils are pure and authentic patchouli. I believe they're all tested etc.

I have other oils that are the same age and are completely fluid... I don't feel like the aromas of the thick ones are any more precious than the fluid ones, I think the thicker ones do become a little bit muted but that muted note is itself quite pleasant in its own distinct way, and I think with these old ones you get this sort of muted background in combination with this oxidized ethereal wine like higher register aroma that is quite pleasant and stands out a bit more then it does most fresh oils. at one point I was under the impression that certain peppery aspects became more pronounced in old oils but I no longer am convinced that that's the case. It's possible though.

here's a picture of one of several solid oils that I have, I almost feel like I should dilute these in alcohol before they just become like hard plastic. They are not practical to use/apply full strength...

 

[roflwaffle]

I have a number of moderately old (in my possession since mid 90s ) iron containing and iron free oils. What is kind of a drag is a number of the dark ones are so thick that they don't pour, they are like a grease at this point and it is a pain in the butt when you want to work with them. these were from high end suppliers ( Oshadhi in this case) and I don't have any question that the oils are pure and authentic patchouli. I believe they're all tested etc.

I have other oils that are the same age and are completely fluid... I don't feel like the aromas of the thick ones are any more precious than the fluid ones, I think the thicker ones do become a little bit muted but that muted note is itself quite pleasant in its own distinct way, and I think with these old ones you get this sort of muted background in combination with this oxidized ethereal wine like higher register aroma that is quite pleasant and stands out a bit more then it does most fresh oils. at one point I was under the impression that certain peppery aspects became more pronounced in old oils but I no longer am convinced that that's the case. It's possible though.

here's a picture of one of several solid oils that I have, I almost feel like I should dilute these in alcohol before they just become like hard plastic. They are not practical to use/apply full strength...
View attachment 55819

super interesting. I've always read that dark (iron containing) over age presents age far better than light (stainless). The reason that perfumers prefer light is that its a less drastic change with time, and maybe a bit more floral, less earthy, as plenty of other ways to get earthy i guess?. I've also seen samples of far older patchoulis dating back to the 60s or so that are still fluid, and some that are like yours that are jello. Figured back 50 years+ ago, it was 100.0% iron pot distilled. I've also seen on here someone that said that even with a year of force oxidation that a mild patch will thicken extensively and turn very dark, so the viscosity is maybe less age and more oxidation (given a year or two timeline).

now.. i'll admit my knowledge is game of telephone internet hearsay. I'm doing what i can (forced oxidation experiments to confirm and other trials, regional, etc) to try to at least prove out some of these claims, try to prove (at least to myself), which variables actually turn the different knobs. totally reasonable assumption that all of your patches are authentic/pure. if anything, if they were diluted like head shop hippy ones, they'd be far more viscous, just due to chemistry and the DPG or dilutant hindering proper aging dynamics.

are you saying that your viscosity results are not directly always tied to dark vs light? just some batches turn to jello/solid vs others? any idea if theres any correlation to region, or it is truely some unadvertised property?

 

[Mr.P]

super interesting. I've always read that dark (iron containing) over age presents age far better than light (stainless). The reason that perfumers prefer light is that its a less drastic change with time, and maybe a bit more floral, less earthy, as plenty of other ways to get earthy i guess?. I've also seen samples of far older patchoulis dating back to the 60s or so that are still fluid, and some that are like yours that are jello. Figured back 50 years+ ago, it was 100.0% iron pot distilled. I've also seen on here someone that said that even with a year of force oxidation that a mild patch will thicken extensively and turn very dark, so the viscosity is maybe less age and more oxidation (given a year or two timeline).

now.. i'll admit my knowledge is game of telephone internet hearsay. I'm doing what i can (forced oxidation experiments to confirm and other trials, regional, etc) to try to at least prove out some of these claims, try to prove (at least to myself), which variables actually turn the different knobs. totally reasonable assumption that all of your patches are authentic/pure. if anything, if they were diluted like head shop hippy ones, they'd be far more viscous, just due to chemistry and the DPG or dilutant hindering proper aging dynamics.

are you saying that your viscosity results are not directly always tied to dark vs light? just some batches turn to jello/solid vs others? any idea if theres any correlation to region, or it is truely some unadvertised property?

no that is not what I was trying to say about viscosity and pigmentation... here's what i have
observed:

In my experience generally the darker ones are the more rapidly / thoroughly solidifying ones. like the patch dark PA30 starts to thicken on the threads quite quickly relative to any of my paler oils. The fluid oils that I have have a range of pigmentation from pale yellow to medium brown

Regarding which smells better when comparing thick or thin, light or dark... I really couldn't answer that - I might have a slight preference for lighter oils but I'm not sure because I don't have enough contemporary dark oils.

I do think age definitely improves the oils up to a point but some of the contemporary oils are just fantastic and I wouldn't want to not have them.

 

[roflwaffle]

no that is not what I was trying to say about viscosity and pigmentation... here's what i have
observed:

In my experience generally the darker ones are the more rapidly / thoroughly solidifying ones. like the patch dark PA30 starts to thicken on the threads quite quickly relative to any of my paler oils. The fluid oils that I have have a range of pigmentation from pale yellow to medium brown

Regarding which smells better when comparing thick or thin, light or dark... I really couldn't answer that - I might have a slight preference for lighter oils but I'm not sure because I don't have enough contemporary dark oils.

I do think age definitely improves the oils up to a point but some of the contemporary oils are just fantastic and I wouldn't want to not have them.

Sorry, I misread then. Though I also get a little confused in that a few 'dark patchoulis' I have are not significantly darker always in color than 'light patchoulis', so i assumed dark was iron, not dark as in color. or i'm being sold mislabelled stuff from perfumery shops, though very little in the pale yellow area. Anyway, sorry for misreading! It's all fascinating, and there's still the facet of region.

I seem to recall you growing it as well I need to dig up posts on.. or someone else. Looks like zone 9, so doable here, so if it grows vigorous like rosemary, even if it needs container growing, that's also another avenue for time wasting 😉

 

[Mr.P]

Sorry, I misread then. Though I also get a little confused in that a few 'dark patchoulis' I have are not significantly darker always in color than 'light patchoulis', so i assumed dark was iron, not dark as in color. or i'm being sold mislabelled stuff from perfumery shops, though very little in the pale yellow area. Anyway, sorry for misreading! It's all fascinating, and there's still the facet of region.

I seem to recall you growing it as well I need to dig up posts on.. or someone else. Looks like zone 9, so doable here, so if it grows vigorous like rosemary, even if it needs container growing, that's also another avenue for time wasting 😉

yes I've grown it and I have a plant clinging to life right now, not sure what's wrong with this one because the first couple of years I grew patch it was very vigorous. I know there are a number of different varieties and even species that are all sold as patchouli so it's not unlikely that one variant has very different growth characteristics than another.

I grew it in a container and it was a good house plant during the winter. It likes warm constant temperature and low light. I wish I had cloned the vigorous variety, it's easy to make a new plant from cuttings and the plants I ordered most recently are nothing like that other one.

@Goodness Nose started some from seed (last year? Year before? ) and I recall the seedlings took a very long time to develop into vigorous plants (it is in the mint family and so the seeds are tiny with no on board reserves) so if you start from seed you might want to order a few live plants as well so you don't have to wait a full year or more.

 

[Mr.P]

yes I've grown it and I have a plant clinging to life right now, not sure what's wrong with this one because the first couple of years I grew patch it was very vigorous. I know there are a number of different varieties and even species that are all sold as patchouli so it's not unlikely that one variant has very different growth characteristics than another.

I grew it in a container and it was a good house plant during the winter. It likes warm constant temperature and low light. I wish I had cloned the vigorous variety, it's easy to make a new plant from cuttings and the plants I ordered most recently are nothing like that other one.

@Goodness Nose started some from seed (last year? Year before? ) and I recall the seedlings took a very long time to develop into vigorous plants (it is in the mint family and so the seeds are tiny with no on board reserves) so if you start from seed you might want to order a few live plants as well so you don't have to wait a full year or more.

Full sunlight is their nemesis

 

[roflwaffle]

Full sunlight is their nemesis

dang, good info, i would have def assumed full sun given their location and my lack of sun, so that's great info. I'm no stranger to bringing stuff indoors during the winter. I've had a joshua tree for a decade, and many cactuses, and citruses, but I give em full blast til temps change (barring some forgetful sunburn acclimations), so i'd have figured the more tropical, the more they love the light.. and of course the perennials as well, lavendar, rosemary etc just get the goods year round.

 

[Shiningrobes]

It must be oxidization of trace iron contents in the darker patchoulis that lead to the thickening of the oil. Like rust. Maybe the free iron bonds to oxygen and that cross links and creates polymerization in the oil. Something like what linseed oil does. Maybe the iron, even in very small amounts, acts as a catalyst between something in the oil and oxygen, I mean doesn’t oxygen basically want to bond with everything?

 

[Shiningrobes]

Also, around $30/ml seems fair. I’m waiting for my finances to even out a bit so I can spend that very amount on a vintage patch that’s left my head spinning.

 

[roflwaffle]

It must be oxidization of trace iron contents in the darker patchoulis that lead to the thickening of the oil. Like rust. Maybe the free iron bonds to oxygen and that cross links and creates polymerization in the oil. Something like what linseed oil does. Maybe the iron, even in very small amounts, acts as a catalyst.

Could be interesting to test. ferrous oxide is wildly cheap and available in small doses (or just make your own), so an A/B test would be basically cost of cheap patch and a few months.