Selling Oud the right way VS the wrong way

[Kai Leon Art Perfumer]

Hey everyone, this is Ibrahim from The Oud Trader.

We're a relatively new oud house. As we grow, I want to make sure that I do things right and serve customers in the best way possible.

MISTAKES
One of the best ways to do this is to learn from customer's bad experiences, so I'd like to ask everyone what are some mistakes/unpleasant experiences that they've had with some stores (Don't mention their name, not trying to shame) so that I can learn from those mistakes and avoid them.

GOOD EXEPERIENCES
Would also like to ask regarding positive experiences everyone had. So that I can learn from those too.

Or any other thoughts at all!
Any feedback at all will be appreciated. We will do our best to implement all of the lessons learnt to the best of our ability.

(Important** please do not mention any names with regards to mistakes, the intention of this thread is not to name & shame, but it is to learn.)

Greetings Ibrahim,
one of the most disappointing phenomena is the misleading overhyping copywriting of the vendors - overly positive descriptions of a flawed or just low-quality oil - while the price eventually does not justify the diminished effect of such material. In some cases a feeling of disappointment from spending (wasting really) can be so strong, that it kills the desire to ever buy any Ouds from such vendor - since the TRUST and reliability is EVERYTHING; if I spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars (which I have to earn) on a miniscule bottle - only to put it away - I certainly would like to get exactly what was advertised.

Here is the most recent example that happened to me just a couple of days ago:
there is a very respected supplier of artisan natural essences who also has a section of Ouds (and NO - that business is NOT on this forum) and as a custom he gives very detailed descriptions of his essences. I already had some minor disappointments when buying 'a masterpiece' of very expensive Oud - only to find out that it is just OK.

A few days ago they advertised a time-limited 'Oud Sale-Off' - giving a discount - enough to trigger me and buy some (rather expensive) allegedly wild Oud that I wanted for a long time - with my desire based of course entirely on his superlative description, which used words like 'incredibly beautiful', 'big blasts', 'brain-buzz', 'profoundly deep' and 'a true collectors piece for the person who wants only the best of everything life offers' - quite a blast of a description, that creates, naturally, very high expectations - I certainly consider myself a person 'who wants only the best' - at least in the realm of aromatic materials.
And so I pay roughly 700$ (after the discount) for a 2.5 gr bottle, I get that 'incredibly beautiful' etc. oil, and
- Nothing - not even close to any of those big words on any parameter - no blasts, no depth, no brain-buzz, no complexity, none of many notes from the over-the-top description I don't care even to mention. The description given by the vendor is about 100% unjust - thus fully misleading. And that leaves a very sad 'after-taste' so to say - beyond the fact that I could spend those 700 dollars way way better, (and the feeling 'how could he do this' - knowing that only a well-experienced Oud-head would buy such oil).
Let me assure you that I know what I am talking about - I am a professional perfumer, with 28 years of experiencing (and love and admiration) in artisan Ouds, and just in the last couple of months alone I've experienced well over a dozen of new for me artisan-quality Ouds oils - mostly from the respected vendors of this forum (though not only), so there is a plenty to compare:

That overyped Oud is aromatically opaque, utterly dull and mute, very simple - primitive really - in its dusty one-dimensional character, with non existent projection, utterly boring, with noticeable unpleasant, acrid-burnt 'scorched wood' undertone through the entire duration of its scent - a sign of overcooked - high-temperature industrial extraction, of low-quality material - and most importantly not reflecting any expected traits mentioned in its decriptions.
I did not tell anything to the vendor, and I am not going to, but that was definitely the last time I bought Oud oil from him, and I am not going ever to recommend him to anyone (which I did in the past) - because of unreliability, because of the false hype (which I despise), because Trust can be oh so easily eroded. Sure I've spent the money, but such disappointing stinging trick can work only once.

So please - try to be as objective, transparent and critical as possible - when describing your products and providing the crucial guidance -to your potential customers (who may become loyal for the life-time); it is better to say less - and not to blow the expectations over-the-top - I'd rather be positively surprised than bitterly disappointed.
Be honest and direct - and that will be much appreciated.

I fully understand that the very complicated logistics of Oud production and trade drive the costs up - without much relation to the scent of an oil itself, and a very expensive oil still can smell rather underwhelming (either too simple, or too mellow, or too fleeting, or with some flaws), and there is a need to entice the customers to buy every one of your oils, but the decisions on the prices should not distort the products' descriptions - which is my only way to understand, what I am paying for as a customer.
In the long run, Trust is Everything, and once the trust is ruined, there is no way back.

 

[p$yl35h]

I’m always interested in new houses or brands being setup. Kudos on marrying your passion with sustenance 😅😂
All of the vendors in here are top 1% in the entire space of retail sellers tbh in most practices, comms and attention to detail - so there is so much to learn from each other. For instance, I love Faizal and Aroma Sublime detailed notes for each release. They are descriptive and help expand my knowledge and explore conscientiously. Mesoud and Al shareef have really clear pricing philosophies - it makes the buying decision very linear in my mind instead of waiting around for incentives. Al hind has some of the cleanest app/web browsing, shopping, packaging - purchases are lightning fast. These things were very helpful for me to build trust.
Ultimately of course it is product. It is surprising how often consensus builds on good product irrespective of price point in the artisan oud space. Which is why a well-defined storied and focused product launch strategy is key - it is important to me as a buyer that the seller stands by what they sell proudly. I don’t want to be simply cash flow for slow moving products or abandoned experiments marketed as limited release or small batch. I also don’t enjoy faux exclusivity ie you have to be in this members club, association, podcast, channel, pyramid layer to access my products.

 

[Ibrahim - The Oud Trader]

It’s been my personal experience that having a more personal relationship with customers and vendors leads to a more successful business in the long run.

When communication is friendly and personable, and the wall between you and your customers is nearly nonexistent, people notice.

I know very little about The Oud Trader, but the fact that you’re here asking questions, listening to feedback, and engaging with the community already makes me want to do business with you.

thank you for your kind words my brother.

Sometimes I long to have lived in the olden times where there was no technology, people lived in small towns/cities and did trade face-to-face in markets. The Relationships built between sellers and customers were so much richer and also healthier back then. Sellers are held to greater accountability for their actions, but also had much stronger customer relationships as well.

But yes you're definitely right, fully agree. I always enjoy connecting with the people who purchase from me

 

[Ibrahim - The Oud Trader]

Greetings Ibrahim,
one of the most disappointing phenomena is the misleading overhyping copywriting of the vendors - overly positive descriptions of a flawed or just low-quality oil - while the price eventually does not justify the diminished effect of such material. In some cases a feeling of disappointment from spending (wasting really) can be so strong, that it kills the desire to ever buy any Ouds from such vendor - since the TRUST and reliability is EVERYTHING; if I spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars (which I have to earn) on a miniscule bottle - only to put it away - I certainly would like to get exactly what was advertised.

Here is the most recent example that happened to me just a couple of days ago:
there is a very respected supplier of artisan natural essences who also has a section of Ouds (and NO - that business is NOT on this forum) and as a custom he gives very detailed descriptions of his essences. I already had some minor disappointments when buying 'a masterpiece' of very expensive Oud - only to find out that it is just OK.

A few days ago they advertised a time-limited 'Oud Sale-Off' - giving a discount - enough to trigger me and buy some (rather expensive) allegedly wild Oud that I wanted for a long time - with my desire based of course entirely on his superlative description, which used words like 'incredibly beautiful', 'big blasts', 'brain-buzz', 'profoundly deep' and 'a true collectors piece for the person who wants only the best of everything life offers' - quite a blast of a description, that creates, naturally, very high expectations - I certainly consider myself a person 'who wants only the best' - at least in the realm of aromatic materials.
And so I pay roughly 700$ (after the discount) for a 2.5 gr bottle, I get that 'incredibly beautiful' etc. oil, and
- Nothing - not even close to any of those big words on any parameter - no blasts, no depth, no brain-buzz, no complexity, none of many notes from the over-the-top description I don't care even to mention. The description given by the vendor is about 100% unjust - thus fully misleading. And that leaves a very sad 'after-taste' so to say - beyond the fact that I could spend those 700 dollars way way better, (and the feeling 'how could he do this' - knowing that only a well-experienced Oud-head would buy such oil).
Let me assure you that I know what I am talking about - I am a professional perfumer, with 28 years of experiencing (and love and admiration) in artisan Ouds, and just in the last couple of months alone I've experienced well over a dozen of new for me artisan-quality Ouds oils - mostly from the respected vendors of this forum (though not only), so there is a plenty to compare:

That overyped Oud is aromatically opaque, utterly dull and mute, very simple - primitive really - in its dusty one-dimensional character, with non existent projection, utterly boring, with noticeable unpleasant, acrid-burnt 'scorched wood' undertone through the entire duration of its scent - a sign of overcooked - high-temperature industrial extraction, of low-quality material - and most importantly not reflecting any expected traits mentioned in its decriptions.
I did not tell anything to the vendor, and I am not going to, but that was definitely the last time I bought Oud oil from him, and I am not going ever to recommend him to anyone (which I did in the past) - because of unreliability, because of the false hype (which I despise), because Trust can be oh so easily eroded. Sure I've spent the money, but such disappointing stinging trick can work only once.

So please - try to be as objective, transparent and critical as possible - when describing your products and providing the crucial guidance -to your potential customers (who may become loyal for the life-time); it is better to say less - and not to blow the expectations over-the-top - I'd rather be positively surprised than bitterly disappointed.
Be honest and direct - and that will be much appreciated.

I fully understand that the very complicated logistics of Oud production and trade drive the costs up - without much relation to the scent of an oil itself, and a very expensive oil still can smell rather underwhelming (either too simple, or too mellow, or too fleeting, or with some flaws), and there is a need to entice the customers to buy every one of your oils, but the dicisions on the prices should not distort the products' descriptions - which is my only way to understand, what I am paying for as a customer.
In the long run, Trust is Everything, and once the trust is ruined, there is no way back.

Thank you for taking the time my brother, really appreciate your input and also you sharing your experience. I'll definitely take that to heart.

Thats something i definitely intend to do. Trust is such a fragile thing. But as long as we are keeping to the truth there's nothing to worry about.

And also, other than how my customers feel, I think more importantly my concern is with regards to my relationship with God, I don't want to have to answer to describing a product inaccurately when selling. It's wrong and with a product like oud that often times people engage in blind buys, it can definitely be very easy to use superfluous language to artificially inflate and decorate an oud well beyond it's merit.

I have learnt from my time doing trade and business that the best way is the upright honest and straight forward way. Always been taught to just do the right thing, and everything else will fall into place.

 

[Ibrahim - The Oud Trader]

I’m always interested in new houses or brands being setup. Kudos on marrying your passion with sustenance 😅😂
All of the vendors in here are top 1% in the entire space of retail sellers tbh in most practices, comms and attention to detail - so there is so much to learn from each other. For instance, I love Faizal and Aroma Sublime detailed notes for each release. They are descriptive and help expand my knowledge and explore conscientiously. Mesoud and Al shareef have really clear pricing philosophies - it makes the buying decision very linear in my mind instead of waiting around for incentives. Al hind has some of the cleanest app/web browsing, shopping, packaging - purchases are lightning fast. These things were very helpful for me to build trust.
Ultimately of course it is product. It is surprising how often consensus builds on good product irrespective of price point in the artisan oud space. Which is why a well-defined storied and focused product launch strategy is key - it is important to me as a buyer that the seller stands by what they sell proudly. I don’t want to be simply cash flow for slow moving products or abandoned experiments marketed as limited release or small batch. I also don’t enjoy faux exclusivity ie you have to be in this members club, association, podcast, channel, pyramid layer to access my products.

yeah man, totally agree with how you feel. Honestly the "love for you brother what you love for yourself" idea would fix of all of this.

you mentioned this "it is important to me as a buyer that the seller stands by what they sell proudly." I think this is so key. The product speaks for itself. And at the end of the day as long as the product is good, all is well.

I think from the perspective of the vendor as well. An approach or philisophy that I try to live by is to "Always give the customer more VALUE than what they pay for". So if they pay me $300, I should feel that the product that I'm sending to them is worth $350, $400, etc.

If i feel like it's worth $200 and I "one-uped" them, then it's a conflict of interest and leads to issues. And if it's worth the same amount as they paid for, then it's alright, but I feel if a business really wants to grow, it's important to always try to "wow" the customer. and $300 for $300 won't get a "wow. But receving a product that feels like $450 when they only paid $300 will create that effect.

 

[roflwaffle]

I've seen a recent 'mistake' that just seems frankly petty, but what does a higher tier perfumery supply store and basic CK vendors have in common that are awful? Shorting customers by small amounts. They ordered 10g? well, they receive 9.4g, caus they're never gonna check eh? Or they just 'eyeballed it' and the container is funnel shaped so 1/3 full is really like 1/5th full by volume.

I'd never have thought anyone would stoop so low, but multiple recent reports from the big vendor have shown things coming in light. To save a few cents? underweight is a huge way to lose customers.

I've had it happen with CK vendors (mildly expected), as well as a recent like 0.7g sample oddly (not a vendor here clearly). It came in at 0.52g. But just one of like 5 samples.. 25% slippage on a ..... $6 sample. Its more the principle of it, and I imagine they just got lazy in measuring? But still.

 

[Ibrahim - The Oud Trader]

I've seen a recent 'mistake' that just seems frankly petty, but what does a higher tier perfumery supply store and basic CK vendors have in common that are awful? Shorting customers by small amounts. They ordered 10g? well, they receive 9.4g, caus they're never gonna check eh? Or they just 'eyeballed it' and the container is funnel shaped so 1/3 full is really like 1/5th full by volume.

I'd never have thought anyone would stoop so low, but multiple recent reports from the big vendor have shown things coming in light. To save a few cents? underweight is a huge way to lose customers.

I've had it happen with CK vendors (mildly expected), as well as a recent like 0.7g sample oddly (not a vendor here clearly). It came in at 0.52g. But just one of like 5 samples.. 25% slippage on a ..... $6 sample. Its more the principle of it, and I imagine they just got lazy in measuring? But still.

Thank you so much for sharing your experience! Yes this is definitely something to pay attention to. Thank you so much for taking the time to share you experience and advice!

 

[Ibrahim - The Oud Trader]

Please keep the advices and inputs coming everyone! Really benefitting from everything

 

[Saudalhajri]

I've seen a recent 'mistake' that just seems frankly petty, but what does a higher tier perfumery supply store and basic CK vendors have in common that are awful? Shorting customers by small amounts. They ordered 10g? well, they receive 9.4g, caus they're never gonna check eh? Or they just 'eyeballed it' and the container is funnel shaped so 1/3 full is really like 1/5th full by volume.

I'd never have thought anyone would stoop so low, but multiple recent reports from the big vendor have shown things coming in light. To save a few cents? underweight is a huge way to lose customers.

I've had it happen with CK vendors (mildly expected), as well as a recent like 0.7g sample oddly (not a vendor here clearly). It came in at 0.52g. But just one of like 5 samples.. 25% slippage on a ..... $6 sample. Its more the principle of it, and I imagine they just got lazy in measuring? But still.

I always make sure to always add 0.1g extra to everything, because of scale error and calibration drift if anything. 0.1g extra costs next to nothing to add, but 0.1g missing can cost you many customers. It’s definitely believable that some people intentionally short when filling.

 

[Saudalhajri]

@Ibrahim - The Oud Trader forgot to thank you for your thread, Jazakallah khair. It’s quite helpful to people reading, even older vendors, and it’s like a safe space for people to vent as well , and post constructive criticism without pointing fingers

 

[Mr.P]

This isn't a complaint, but just some advice based on what I see here over time:

I feel like there's a fair amount of expectation that vendors go above and beyond, in part because some of the vendors have traditionally been extremely generous with samples, over pouring, expensive bottles and packaging, and things like that. Of course business is business and margins are margins, and things like this are factored in, but the appearance of this generosity I think is very important. (And in many cases it reflects a true generosity of spirit don't take that the wrong way…)

So if you're starting a new business one of the things I would suggest when deciding your margins and how much to charge would be to factor in the expectation that every purchase will come with valuable samples and luxury presentation, and quality functional glassware.

I feel like that's how people kind of get kickstarted around here - offering something over the top during introductory periods, getting a reputation for generosity with "free" samples (which are a good way to keep people interested after the initial discounts pass), and then of course in the long run, consistent high quality offerings. I put free in quotes because of course these samples have a cost, sometimes significant, to the vendor and there's nothing free if the business depends on profit margins to succeed etc.

OK I can think of a couple of pet peeves:
1. Fancy looking bottles that do not seal well or that leak adhesive onto the threads and into the bottle.
2. In your marketing, back stories can be great and are critical to understanding some oils, but when they are a barrier to learning the fundamental details of the oil they can be counterproductive. So I would suggest immediately getting to the age, origin, distillation method, etc. or having that clearly listed in one place and having the J Peterman style writing for a different tab/window.

 

[The Scent Guru]

"J Peterman" lmfao 🤣

 

[Mr.P]

"J Peterman" lmfao 🤣

I figured someone would relate to that! as far as I know they were pretty much the OG as far as adventure style narrative product descriptions in their catalogues. every T-shirt and pair of socks had a backstory that generally involved crossing a fair percentage of the distance around the globe… it was pretty effective at differentiating the line back in the day I guess although I never ordered anything from them - I remember they had someone portray him in the Seinfeld series haha

 

[Olfactory Nomad]

I figured someone would relate to that! as far as I know they were pretty much the OG as far as adventure style narrative product descriptions in their catalogues. every T-shirt and pair of socks had a backstory that generally involved crossing a fair percentage of the distance around the globe… it was pretty effective at differentiating the line back in the day I guess although I never ordered anything from them - I remember they had someone portray him in the Seinfeld series haha

What? They were a real company!? I thought it was strictly a Seinfield character. That makes it even more funny.
I also agree with the taking the time and care to package something in keeping with the amount of money you have just spent on it. I have received a couple of oils in the past from an outside vendor that had so clearly not been shown the love and respect that was detailed in the description or even basic safety handling for an item that's traveling by mail. Bottles can break or leak. When these two oils showed up and I opened the box they had either made their way out of the cloth bag or been taken out by customs and not returned and so were just rolling around loose in the box. No bubble wrap, nothing. It was like they had just been thrown in there without any care and sent off. Also no samples and this was a first time buy and a last time buy. Samples are always a bonus and I don't expect them (unless I have asked for one or two specifically) but this experience left me feeling pretty flat before I had even tried them.

 

[roflwaffle]

First, congrats on selling out of everything. I will say that it may be worth keeping in mind sample load vs inventory. To sell a sampler pack to audit and buy, and then to sell out of everything a week or less after many received their sampler it feels like maybe too much stock was used for samplers vs inventory. And, an empty store makes no sales, too long with no inventory and you lose momentum on keeping customers around. I certainly appreciate stores that have things to sell, and being able to buy samples before committing to larger orders 😉


Both are not complaints, first product lot, growing pains, just got bigger than expected results, it happens. Good luck on the next lot!

 

[Ibrahim - The Oud Trader]

First, congrats on selling out of everything. I will say that it may be worth keeping in mind sample load vs inventory. To sell a sampler pack to audit and buy, and then to sell out of everything a week or less after many received their sampler it feels like maybe too much stock was used for samplers vs inventory. And, an empty store makes no sales, too long with no inventory and you lose momentum on keeping customers around. I certainly appreciate stores that have things to sell, and being able to buy samples before committing to larger orders 😉


Both are not complaints, first product lot, growing pains, just got bigger than expected results, it happens. Good luck on the next lot!

Thanks so much my brother! Yeah this is really great advice. Really appreciate you taking the time to give this feedback. means alot to me 🙂

You hit the nail on the head man. Will definitely be preparing better, this lot had much more demand than expected, so going into the next lot we definitely learnt from this one.

We're working on the next launch as we speak. Will be visiting some distillers very soon as well.