extractions, etc.

[Mr.P]

Yes i recall reading about such thing in a rather old post, think with picture of alembic outside.
Sometimes here on the forums, its like
Find it once is luck
Find it twice is wizzardry

that's an unfortunate aspect of the forum that I'm not always mindful of - so much information but buried in long threads that are not easy to search through.

 

[Mr.P]

I assume its just where they contain compounds you care about with low boiling points that would not survive distillation temps, but you'd have to get into gcms or research to much. i suppose some will vaporize and recondense, but I assume (perhaps wrongly) you generally want ones that just hitch a ride. Maybe it has to do with the molecular weight rather than bp though, havn't really thought about it.

And super neat. It's like halfway between a proper gin basket and a traditional attar or shamama. Havn't considered it, feels too much up to skill and chance as far as ratios go, but sounds very exciting and creative. Alas, all I have here is a few rose bushes, a rhodie or 4, some small common herbs, and a VW Beetle sized rhubarb, which unfortunately appears to have no extraction capabilities, unless i wanna start getting wood bleach. Though, nature is aplenty and there's a few interesting things around ripe for exploration (currently mulling how best to extract from madrona bark, or the common tree moss that isnt oakmoss, though most assuredly has the same aterpine or whatever present)

There are two steps to it, the initial distillation and then the follow up addition of oils. One can make a large batch of the initial distillate and then experiment with different sub batches when it comes to the oils that are added post distillation, so you don't have to literally distill each separate formula provided you're working on the second half of the process. As far as what's loaded in during distillation, obviously each trial requires a run of the still so a much longer process to master and large changes to that initial mixture require a bit of a toss of the dice.

Tomorrow's distillation will definitely involve fresh clary sage and lavender. Most recipes have some fresh rosemary but I don't have any of that on hand so either I buy sprigs from the farmer's market if they have it or do something a little less traditional.

Optional herbs that could be included in that first mix include angelica root, elecampane root, sweet fern, mint species, thyme, sage, mild sweet oregano, marjoram, zanthoxylem, ground ivy, valerian root / flower, elderflower, black birch etc. I feel like I'm repeating myself here like I already posted this but it's on my mind today…

there is a variety of wild cucumber that produces small feathery flowers that smell like cukes and violet. I would like to try a codistillation with those because it's really an excellent variation on the violet theme

 

[Mr.P]

Made the first stage of a distilled cologne today - using fresh clary sage, lavender, lemon thyme, lime mint from my gardenand wild szechuan pepper foraged nearby; codistilled with Capua bergamot, lemon and mandarin oil over alcohol and local springwater. The alcohol used is alcohol recovered under vacuum from a strong tincture of dried white pine needles. This is a unique fragrance with a strong local signature and an unusual pedigree, very pleased to have made this and looking forward to many similar projects over the course of the summer.

Next up is the addition of more delicate materials and fixatives, I will likely include some sweet woodruff and wild sweet fern extract I made last summer along with the Moroccan and Egyptian neroli and some very fine terpene-free petitgrain.

 

[Mr.P]

I've made a few of these and one surprising thing about this run is that in spite of the whole thing involving high proof alcohol and similar techniques to the previous runs, there was a small pool of essential oil floating on top of the distillate. That's a first.

When distilling one of these colognes, the fresh plant matter contributes a measurable amount of water to the fragrance that is collected in the condenser and I think the intense oiliness of the Szechuan peppercorns combined with the slight dilution of the alcohol resulted in the oil slick.

I was able to siphon off about 1 mL of this oil from the surface and it has a delightful citrus-herb aroma. Ideally this would be part of the perfume itself and one option would be to add just a touch of high proof alcohol to get it to dissolve, with the expectation that the result will be a stronger fragrance overall.

 

[Mr.P]

I've made a few of these and one surprising thing about this run is that in spite of the whole thing involving high proof alcohol and similar techniques to the previous runs, there was a small pool of essential oil floating on top of the distillate. That's a first.

When distilling one of these colognes, the fresh plant matter contributes a measurable amount of water to the fragrance that is collected in the condenser and I think the intense oiliness of the Szechuan peppercorns combined with the slight dilution of the alcohol resulted in the oil slick.

I was able to siphon off about 1 mL of this oil from the surface and it has a delightful citrus-herb aroma. Ideally this would be part of the perfume itself and one option would be to add just a touch of high proof alcohol to get it to dissolve, with the expectation that the result will be a stronger fragrance overall. View attachment 55452

I (almost) feel like I'm talking to myself here sometimes which is understandable given the obscure niche I have selected.

anyhoo with the small pool of oil on the surface yesterday, I was concerned that maybe somehow the alcohol had been so diluted by water from the herbs that it was no longer effective as a solvent, but it seems that it's not the case.

Whatever was floating on the surface must be some especially insoluble material because over 4 g of neroli, petitgrain and orange blossom absolute dissolved readily in the same liquid! I'm guessing some terpenes from the Mandarin oil based on the smell and from the Szechuan pepper since that is the one obvious variable.

 

[roflwaffle]

(almost) feel like I'm talking to myself here sometimes which is understandable given the obscure niche I have selected.

Naw, it is read and appreciated. Some of the more interesting content on here imo

I think generally you're moving fast so, at least for me, even if I am working on something in this vein, don't wanna derail, or make it about myself, or more likely, my still or chemical projects have no useful update recently.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

I (almost) feel like I'm talking to myself here sometimes

Reading & appreciating!
I was going to figure out how that cylinder with the botanicals sits in the alembic when life interfered 🙂

 

[Mr.P]

excellent, for the most part I'm comfortable just posting what I'm up to but every once in a while it feels a little narcissistic and it's good to have a reality check.

 

[Mr.P]

Reading & appreciating!
I was going to figure out how that cylinder with the botanicals sits in the alembic when life interfered 🙂

it's just like a collar that goes between the onion and the kettle/ pot. It has a perforated plate so you can keep the plant matter entirely above the boiling liquid if that's your goal.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

it's just like a collar that goes between the onion and the kettle/ pot. It has a perforated plate so you can keep the plant matter entirely above the boiling liquid if that's your goal. View attachment 55471

Ah that looks familiar indeed, i somehow got the impression that it would sit inside, which i thought would leave little room for the water below.
I assume you use the double boiler because there's alcohol inside instead of water.
If i see the efficiency of such design i kind of regret to have started with a pressure cooker (which seemed the cheaper way back then). For steam distillation it's hard to pack the thing properly (evenly) and i then have the water which returns from the receiver dripping on the botanicals which isn't s good idea per se.

Szeshuan pepper, i think is coated with a protective layer (preventing drying out) of several fatty components than would easily be carried over by hot vapor while they won't stay dissolved in the cooled down alcohol in the receiver.

If you could use that seperated 1ml in some oil based fragrance, it would make for a great fixative though🙂

*Edit: with their long carbon chains they strongly bond with oil molecules and likely managed to steal terpenes from the alcohol, otherwise it would have been fairly odourless.

 

[Mr.P]

Ah that looks familiar indeed, i somehow got the impression that it would sit inside, which i thought would leave little room for the water below.
I assume you use the double boiler because there's alcohol inside instead of water.
If i see the efficiency of such design i kind of regret to have started with a pressure cooker (which seemed the cheaper way back then). For steam distillation it's hard to pack the thing properly (evenly) and i then have the water which returns from the receiver dripping on the botanicals which isn't s good idea per se.

Szeshuan pepper, i think is coated with a protective layer (preventing drying out) of several fatty components than would easily be carried over by hot vapor while they won't stay dissolved in the cooled down alcohol in the receiver.

If you could use that seperated 1ml in some oil based fragrance, it would make for a great fixative though🙂

*Edit: with their long carbon chains they strongly bond with oil molecules and likely managed to steal terpenes from the alcohol, otherwise it would have been fairly odourless.

These old refined/evolved designs are preferable for sure even though they come with their own issues like being leak prone - I think the wide mouth, gradual taper, and the fact that copper can conduct the heat up from the burner to the onion and goose-neck keeps everything moving nicely. I mentioned earlier how disappointed I was at the performance of the glass distillation apparatus that my friend bought as an essential oil distillation kit. Totally inappropriate for distilling essential oils using typical home heating elements and such. basically the large globular chamber stuffed with herbs was functioning as a condenser and never really heated up enough to allow steam to pass through. so everything just recycled / refluxed(?) back into the boiler below. Extremely slow drip rate even after wrapping everything in insulation.

For the cologne distillation I use the copper still but I did not use the basket because all of the plant matter was able to fit into the kettle, and when I have read descriptions of the process it always involves immersion of the herbs in the oils and alcohol (and zero chance of scorching since it's a bain marie setup). In this compact mode this alembic is a beast, heats up quickly and you can move a lot through it. I need to order a larger one 🙂 🙂

i've been adding the post distillation oils to the cologne, gradually, and this is definitely one of the nicer ones that I've made - I've learned something from the previous runs I'm happy to say. a couple more things to add and then it will be ready to set aside for a while to mature.

 

[Mr.P]

One strange side effect of all of this extraction and perfume making business is that since I started really focusing on itmy car always smells excellent even though I don't ever deliberately fragrance my car. I often apply a swipe or two of something before heading out for a drive, and I guess residue clings to the upholstery or maybe if air is recirculated some fragrance is deposited in the air filter? Probably the former because a lot of what I wear are oils and they would likely transfer to the upholstery. It was really surprising yesterday it was nearly 100° and I've been helping my father with dinner and recovering from a power outage, got my car to go home and it smelled just like I would like my perfumes to smell. Some pleasant hybridization of what I've been wearing for the whole week. Bizarre, to me, because I had no idea that it would be possible for me to influence the aroma of environment on a lasting basis just by being in it. it also makes me realize my scent bubble is probably a little bigger than I think it is, I prefer that people won't notice what I'm wearing unless they're right up close

 

[Mr.P]

Continuing to share what I'm doing here but growing a little more self-conscious about it as there really doesn't seem to be a thriving DIY community here or at BN like there used to be.

One appeal of social media is that you're not pushing your content out to anybody who might not be interested. That's probably the only improvement over the forums - sharing what you're doing with other people who are involved in the same thing feels normal, sharing it with people who aren't feels inappropriately narcissistic. i'm not looking for pats on the back or reassurances, couldn't care less about that, it's the nature of the community itself and what it's involved in independent of me that determines my comfort level. I


Anyhoo, here goes: I've been studying the distilled cologne I made recently every day trying to understand how it matures and make intelligent decisions about the oils added after distillation. Yesterday I added a touch of clary sage absolute, a material considered indispensable in perfumery.

The next day here I can see the impact of the small amount of the absolute and the aroma is improved both in terms of the presence of positive notes and a decrease in the distillation notes, I don't know which to attribute to time or the suppressive action of the clary absolute, I suspect it's a combination of both.

Next to add is a little bit of orris, but I'm also evaluating a petitgrain absolute - pretty unusual variation on the citrus leaf theme much more rich and waxy.

Here's to all of you and a special call out to thoseengaged in creative projects, hoping you will share what you're up to, it's been nice hearing about some of the projects of a couple of contributors here. I wish we could bring in more tinkerers!

 

[Mr.P]

Found another large stand of Prickly Ash, the common name for the species of Zanthoxylem that grows in the US. Apparently it has the most in common with sansho (I hope I have that right) which I believe is the term for the Japanese variety of this pepper. Quite citrusy with a warm herbal pungency that brings black walnut husks to mind. I was very happy with the cologne distilled using this, fits right in with the citrusy accord and the herbal / floral spiciness adds some sophistication that makes it smell almost cologne like in itself.

I have enough to make another batch of this cologne or to use these for some other purpose, including possibly water distillation or simply drying for use in cooking.

Harvesting them in the green stage instead of the later red stage because in my experience the green peppercorns are more intensely aromatic.

As you know this stuff numbs your tongue dramatically, and it turns out the bark of the tree does as well. I chewed on some today, apparently this was a remedy used by the indigenous peoples for toothache.
again I love the fact that this is in the citrus family and when they are green the peppercorns look like little limes!

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Nice harvest! There's been a time when i used them a lot for cooking (dried green and red) because of the lovely aromatic bouquet.

 

[Mr.P]

Nice harvest! There's been a time when i used them a lot for cooking (dried green and red) because of the lovely aromatic bouquet.

harvesting it is kind of brutal, it grows in these dense thickets so I had to spray myself down with tick spray. The shrubs are covered with very sharp rose like thorns and the fruits cluster where thorns form so you tend to get pricks in your thumb every time you pick them off - but they're so small you can't use gloves, and my fingertips are all sore. Also it's extremely humid and hot so I had to wear a short sleeve shirt and got pretty torn up trying to access some of the higher branches where the larger clusters are often found. Worth it. Between this and the cats I'm getting a lot of scratches this summer.

 

[Al Hashimi]

that's an unfortunate aspect of the forum that I'm not always mindful of - so much information but buried in long threads that are not easy to search through.

We will be fixing this at some point with Luxarti and an Generative AI facility.

 

[Mr.P]

We will be fixing this at some point with Luxarti and an Generative AI facility.

seems like a an actual good use for AI - have it sift through the archives and summarize what it finds. Could take a person forever to do that. Ideally it would do so leaving some kind of a trail to who posted what and when kind of like source citation but I'm not sure if that's possible. Seriously - this is one of the first real positive uses of this technology I've seen someone bring to the table here. So much information is buried in long conversations at basenotes as well as other forums, would require a team of dedicated researchers/archivists to process otherwise I think. Kind of gives hope for all of these heaps of digital information that have been buried in the dialogues on the Internet may become reliably "mineable" for information using this technology. I know the information is not reliable so it would just be a starting point for your own research as opposed to an authoritative reference of course.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Continuing to share what I'm doing here but growing a little more self-conscious about it as there really doesn't seem to be a thriving DIY community here or at BN like there used to be.

One appeal of social media is that you're not pushing your content out to anybody who might not be interested. That's probably the only improvement over the forums - sharing what you're doing with other people who are involved in the same thing feels normal, sharing it with people who aren't feels inappropriately narcissistic. i'm not looking for pats on the back or reassurances, couldn't care less about that, it's the nature of the community itself and what it's involved in independent of me that determines my comfort level. I


Anyhoo, here goes: I've been studying the distilled cologne I made recently every day trying to understand how it matures and make intelligent decisions about the oils added after distillation. Yesterday I added a touch of clary sage absolute, a material considered indispensable in perfumery.

The next day here I can see the impact of the small amount of the absolute and the aroma is improved both in terms of the presence of positive notes and a decrease in the distillation notes, I don't know which to attribute to time or the suppressive action of the clary absolute, I suspect it's a combination of both.

Next to add is a little bit of orris, but I'm also evaluating a petitgrain absolute - pretty unusual variation on the citrus leaf theme much more rich and waxy.

Here's to all of you and a special call out to thoseengaged in creative projects, hoping you will share what you're up to, it's been nice hearing about some of the projects of a couple of contributors here. I wish we could bring in more tinkerers!

I always open the app with the latest posts page and skip the topics i don't really care about. Doesn't bother me they are there because i don't have to open or read them. So i wouldn't worry about posting on a topic with a bunch of follow-ups that may not be anyones cuppa tea as they can easily skip them. There's a constant pressence of guest visitors clicking on some google search result, that may find just what they were looking for in one of those threads and happily move on with their experiments without further engagement. So engagement is not a good gauge for value per se.
I think it's fun to read about experiments and the underlying thought process. It's inspiring. Specially after failure number x and in need of a boost to keep trying. It sparks ideas like to try find some botanical that wasn't on the radar before.
And yes it would be nice to have more 'tinkerers' around indeed🙂

 

[roflwaffle]

hoping you will share what you're up to,

May have mentioned it before, but mostly been awaiting results on tinctures and extracts. Madrona, local tree mosses, and many ester experiments, but in a holding pattern there, along with seconds run on year old Madagascar vanilla, all pretty rote.

Otherwise, basic work, sourcing blending stock, doing blends and discussing on perfumery chats, working on tooling to make tracking of formulas and materials tracking and planning, gcms naturals matching and reverse engineering, etc. we're ina golden era of purpose built self made tooling without any skills required


For novel work, been looking into papers about lacasse.for it's ability to unlock oils from wood matrices as an option for yield increase in distillation. Some papers show promise, but spending moq for 1kg when I need like 20g has me in a... Do more research to ensure value pattern