Kyara/Kynam: IS IT REALLY OUD?

[Rai Munir]

What is this?

Screenshots of Mr Jiang's fb wall:

 

[Rai Munir]

Only respected KyaraZen or respected powdernose.

 

[Alex]

I was not suggesting you buy your wood from ebay. Interesting that you are not sure where your wood came from.😵 Also you admit you may be buying from someone who also sells the impossible wild kinam which means you either don't trust the people you buy from or you are misleading people.

dear I'm not sure I have posted real pictures of the farm and the different kinds of wood. no dear not sure why you think that. we are buying from farms other people can be buying for the same farms or similar farm it's not 100% exclusive. it's an open free market. I love the way you keep saying misleading even though I'm saying it is possible and being 100% direct and honest. dear I honestly think you bought what you think is wild kinam and you hate my post for that reason.

 

[Alex]

I don't like joining any dramas, but what I can't wrap my mind around is that 5 years old cultivated tree wood sells for $500 dollars per 1 gram...

more than 5 years yes, very possible keep in mind price in farm is very different from reseller price, so it can be a multiplication of the price by the time it reaches the customer.

 

[Mr.P]

I’m not convinced that this conversation is really going anywhere, or that it will really be possible for us to resolve this just by arguing back-and-forth. In fact I’m kind of surprised this has gone on for so long. For me personally, a word or two from Kyarazen would really help me to reach a conclusion. Based on everything I’ve seen, he would be the source that I would be inclined to trust the most. I say this because his blog posts seem very well written and carefully researched. He has also been very forthcoming with information and sample sets and all kinds of things to allow people to experience the stuff directly. Can we get him to come here and weigh in on this topic?

Finally if all if our skepticism is proven wrong, I will be the first to apologize and laugh at my own ignorance! I sincerely hope the whole “kyara farm” thing turns out to be true because a helluva lot more of this would help everybody to be able to enjoy it.

 

[Alex]

You did sell some kinam from China on your site.

yes we did, still listed with pictures and details, it was only 4 samples and were all sold and been out since then. and I would love if you can check it and see the picture so you can compare it to what is presented as wild and see if you can see any different or change (kindly keep in mind that the one we listed is cultivated)

 

[Alex]

I’m not convinced that this conversation is really going anywhere, or that it will really be possible for us to resolve this just by arguing back-and-forth. In fact I’m kind of surprised this has gone on for so long. For me personally, a word or two from Kyarazen would really help me to reach a conclusion. Based on everything I’ve seen, he would be the source that I would be inclined to trust the most. I say this because his blog posts seem very well written and carefully researched. He has also been very forthcoming with information and sample sets and all kinds of things to allow people to experience the stuff directly. Can we get him to come here and weigh in on this topic?

will be great, but not sure if they would like to do that, as most member on this forum (apologize don't remember who) said that he read on their site that there is absolutely no cultivated kinam. I'm actually said and presented all the fact I got, pictures and references. I'm not entitled to convince anyone or change anyone mind actually funny enough I just check the site that you mentioned and I think we both agree as they write the following and I'm quoting "In Vietnam these days, no one is able to locate a living tree with kynam anymore, and everyone is just searching through the mud and soil hoping to find small pieces of buried kynam"
https://www.kyarazen.com/what-is-kyara-or-kynam/
so maybe we are saying the same thing in different ways, or just some people miss understand it

 

[Alex]

These are references from your posts –

“ … there is nothing to market dear we are not collaborated or associated with any company farm or vendor we are not advertising a site that sell or promote kinam”, Alex Post #154

“I would say get a high quality "cultivated kinam" 5 years or more, try it and smell it and enjoy it rather than just arguing and talking about wild and ancient kinam without having a clue how it smells or what it is like to burn it on a slow low heat electrical burner with a cup of Chinese tea or some real good coffee”, Alex Post #122

It was actually always clear to me that your company cares greatly for profit from your hard work here, despite a part of me wanting to give you a chance. The above references only support my impression that your presence here is a guise to lure people into buying cultivated kinam from your company. It is rather convenient that you chose the logo “the Perfumist” as your profile picture making each of your post an advertisement here for your company. This is in addition to dropping hints and indicators as to which company we should thank for all this wonderful lab work and research on the "Wild Kinam SCAM" and redirect ourselves to the genuine and considerably cheaper “Cultivated Kinam” 🙄

… AND TO REITERATE @Joe King ’s DISCOVERY - “THE PERFUMIST WEBSITE HAS THIS FOR SALE!”.
WE ALL CAN CONVENIENTLY BUY CULTIVATED KINAM FROM YOUR WEBSITE

-------- I THINK NOT!!! ----------​

Dear most of the members didn't eve knew there is cultivated kinam, I'm not sure who are you trying to convince what I said is very clear.
this statement "there is nothing to market dear we are not collaborated or associated with any company farm or vendor we are not advertising a site that sell or promote kinam”, Alex Post #154
is true I'm not marketing it I'm saying be careful of anyone who say I'm selling wild kianm because there is no such animal
this statement
" I would say get a high quality "cultivated kinam" 5 years or more, try it and smell it and enjoy it rather than just arguing and talking about wild and ancient kinam without having a clue how it smells or what it is like to burn it on a slow low heat electrical burner with a cup of Chinese tea or some real good coffee”, Alex Post #122
is also true since most the members on this forum including yourself had no idea how a cultivated kinam looks after few years and I posted the pictures and explained it.
your way of talking and arguing is the lest to say unprofessional and uneducated and I will not go down to this level. believe whatever you want and say whatever you want and buy whatever kind of rare wild kinam you get offered. just don't try to convince others that you are right because you are not. this is the truth.

 

[Mr.P]

Yes - I would not have difficulty at all believing that new wild (I mean actually wild grown - an old tree discovered with natural infection or whatever) is rarely if ever uncovered. But that doesn’t mean that nobody is selling material from old stock / inventory. It also doesn’t mean that if we buy a piece of kyara from an incense supplier in Japan that it was recently produced on a farm ( though it may be, what the hell do I know? All I do is repeat what other people tell me on the internet).

the problem you are encountering here Alex is that all of us have been told over and over and over again for all these years that this wood can only come from ancient wild trees and we have all come to accept this as dogma. This has been repeated as absolute truth, and so you have quite a bit of conditioning to deal with here. And you are right: I am sure there are people who have invested in wild kyara and are going to have a hard time hearing that it may not be what they think it is.

 

[Woodland Note]

will be great, but not sure if they would like to do that, as most member on this forum (apologize don't remember who) said that he read on their site that there is absolutely no cultivated kinam. I'm actually said and presented all the fact I got, pictures and references. I'm not entitled to convince anyone or change anyone mind actually funny enough I just check the site that you mentioned and I think we both agree as they write the following and I'm quoting "In Vietnam these days, no one is able to locate a living tree with kynam anymore, and everyone is just searching through the mud and soil hoping to find small pieces of buried kynam"
https://www.kyarazen.com/what-is-kyara-or-kynam/
so maybe we are saying the same thing in different ways, or just some people miss understand it

Hmmm a quote, from the very same article:

"How Kyara is formed out of agarwood trees, or from agarwood is unknown. Given its complicated chemical and dynamic scent profiles, with more compounds than normal agarwood, including a very high sesquiterpene content, there are speculations. In Japan, its been speculated that recurrent or multiple infections at different time points over centirues could have caused kyara to be formed. The Chinese speculate that it could be bees making hives in agarwood tree trunks, with the honey affecting the resination process causing different scents to result. Others believe it to be centuries of aging and weathering in a humid climate resulting in the “ripening” of resins, breakdown of hard resins into soft pliable materials. Another theory was an extremely special species of fungus infecting the tree and changing its genetic expressions relating to plant defense, causing secretion of special/unique compounds. There is absolutely no cultivated kyara known at this point of time, people growing A. Sinensis, Crassna, or Malaccensis, have not been able to induce or obtain materials that are comparable to wild agarwood, not to even talk about forming such extremely rare and superior kyara/kynam materials. Perhaps only from the microscopic structure alone, we can observe compaction that seem to imply that kynam/kyara to be core/heartwood material. I personally believe kyara to be formed by a combination of all the previous speculations stated."

 

[Alex]

I’m not convinced that this conversation is really going anywhere, or that it will really be possible for us to resolve this just by arguing back-and-forth. In fact I’m kind of surprised this has gone on for so long. For me personally, a word or two from Kyarazen would really help me to reach a conclusion. Based on everything I’ve seen, he would be the source that I would be inclined to trust the most. I say this because his blog posts seem very well written and carefully researched. He has also been very forthcoming with information and sample sets and all kinds of things to allow people to experience the stuff directly. Can we get him to come here and weigh in on this topic?

Finally if all if our skepticism is proven wrong, I will be the first to apologize and laugh at my own ignorance! I sincerely hope the whole “kyara farm” thing turns out to be true because a helluva lot more of this would help everybody to be able to enjoy it.

you are very true dear, it's going now were but I'm done here I have said everything I got and listed real documents and scientific references it looks like most people here dont like the truth, and simple argue for the sake of agreement only not to reach a result.

Yes - I would not have difficulty at all believing that new wild (I mean actually wild grown - an old tree discovered with natural infection or whatever) is rarely if ever uncovered. But that doesn’t mean that nobody is selling material from old stock / inventory. It also doesn’t mean that if we buy a piece of kyara from an incense supplier in Japan that it was recently produced on a farm ( though it may be, what the hell do I know? All I do is repeat what other people tell me on the internet).

the problem you are encountering here Alex is that all of us have been told over and over and over again for all these years that this wood can only come from ancient wild trees and we have all come to accept this as dogma. This has been repeated as absolute truth, and so you have quite a bit of conditioning to deal with here.

I know that dear, and I'm grateful to you for saying that as I mentioned I know it's not easy but that is the truth. saying something a thousand times doesn't makes it right or true, and yes I totally agree there are some people around the world who may have some real wild kinam, as I mentioned in a previous post a king of a country in middle-east is one of them. the reason I know that because because I have hold it in my own hands, smelled with my nose and seen it with my own eyes (the smoke greenish in color going up horizontally in a straight line for a bout a meter and trust me, you, me, or anyone would know it because it doesn't looks like anything we have ever seen before) so yes some people around the world do and may have it, but who ? and would they sell it? would they offer it on eBay, would they listed publicly and say this is wild kinam people come buy it? I strongly doubt that. keep in mind in our line of business there are private auctions, it's not a secret ask any expers oud collector in the Arabic gulf region and he will conform what I say I have been and seen many, those they don't even let cameras or video in it. so again if there is any possible that someone somewhere, somehow is selling a piece of wild kinam it would be on one of those auctions. this is just the truth.

 

[Alex]

Hmmm a quote, from the very same article:

"How Kyara is formed out of agarwood trees, or from agarwood is unknown. Given its complicated chemical and dynamic scent profiles, with more compounds than normal agarwood, including a very high sesquiterpene content, there are speculations. In Japan, its been speculated that recurrent or multiple infections at different time points over centirues could have caused kyara to be formed. The Chinese speculate that it could be bees making hives in agarwood tree trunks, with the honey affecting the resination process causing different scents to result. Others believe it to be centuries of aging and weathering in a humid climate resulting in the “ripening” of resins, breakdown of hard resins into soft pliable materials. Another theory was an extremely special species of fungus infecting the tree and changing its genetic expressions relating to plant defense, causing secretion of special/unique compounds. There is absolutely no cultivated kyara known at this point of time, people growing A. Sinensis, Crassna, or Malaccensis, have not been able to induce or obtain materials that are comparable to wild agarwood, not to even talk about forming such extremely rare and superior kyara/kynam materials. Perhaps only from the microscopic structure alone, we can observe compaction that seem to imply that kynam/kyara to be core/heartwood material. I personally believe kyara to be formed by a combination of all the previous speculations stated."

lovely thank you for posting this I have missed this part, so technically this means that every single Kiyara/kianm wood that is being listed, sold, or presented is real wild kinam? Is that what are you trying to say?

 

[Woodland Note]

lovely thank you for posting this I have missed this part, so technically this means that every single Kiyara/kianm wood that is being listed, sold, or presented is real wild kinam? Is that what are you trying to say?

No, I know nothing. I'm mosty saying the same as Mr.P in the post above.

 

[Alex]

finally and this is my last post, because I believe I had spent enough time and effort here and said everything I have to say.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THIS IS AN OPEN CHALLENGE WITH NO TIME OR PLACE RESTRICTION TO ANYONE AND EVERYONE WHO IS SELLING OFFERING AND LISTING WHAT THEY THINK OR CALL "WILD KINAM". TO PROVE THAT IT IS WILD KINAM THROUGH ANY SCIENTIFIC MEAN
INCLUDING WHAT I HAVE REFERENCED AND LISTED:
1- an academically acceptableness lab test (from a well known lab with authentication and lab name and reference and signatures stating the this is 100% wild and it doesn't include any of the material or substances used in cultivation or harvesting which all experts knows it)
2- record a kinam wood burning with the smoke going straight in a horizontal line for one meter with greenish color (as mentioned in rozi book and other books)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I leave this challenge open for anyone and everyone any time, anywhere and I hope everyone on this forum can share it and ask the sellers, consultants and companies or "authority figures!" they believe in if they can fulfill this challenge.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if this challenge fulfilled by anyone I won't only shut up forever, apologize to everyone on this forum and, never talk about kinam again but I will personally give 10k USD to anyone who fulfill this challenge. and everyone who read this post is a witness.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

thank you all for the fun time and please accept my sincere apology if I directly or indirectly offended anyone in anyway, it is truly not my intention.
thank you all and regards and love to you

Alex

 

[Mr.P]

This is not intended as a criticism of anything Alex is saying. I have just seen many posts about the make up of incense somehow influencing the form of the smoke that streams off the stick. I am having a hard time believing the whole “shape of the smoke stream” business is scientific. How is the chemical composition of a piece of wood going to influence whether airflow is laminar or turbulent for a distance of 1 meter above a stick of incense inside someone’s home?

 

[Joe King]

[QUOTE="Alex, .... wild and it doesn't include any of the material or substances used in cultivation or harvesting which all experts knows it)


The best reason to avoid any cultivated oud, unknown chemicals that are used to mimic wild infections.

 

[VPhong]

finally and this is my last post, because I believe I had spent enough time and effort here and said everything I have to say.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THIS IS AN OPEN CHALLENGE WITH NO TIME OR PLACE RESTRICTION TO ANYONE AND EVERYONE WHO IS SELLING OFFERING AND LISTING WHAT THEY THINK OR CALL "WILD KINAM". TO PROVE THAT IT IS WILD KINAM THROUGH ANY SCIENTIFIC MEAN
INCLUDING WHAT I HAVE REFERENCED AND LISTED:
1- an academically acceptableness lab test (from a well known lab with authentication and lab name and reference and signatures stating the this is 100% wild and it doesn't include any of the material or substances used in cultivation or harvesting which all experts knows it)
2- record a kinam wood burning with the smoke going straight in a horizontal line for one meter with greenish color (as mentioned in rozi book and other books)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I leave this challenge open for anyone and everyone any time, anywhere and I hope everyone on this forum can share it and ask the sellers, consultants and companies or "authority figures!" they believe in if they can fulfill this challenge.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if this challenge fulfilled by anyone I won't only shut up forever, apologize to everyone on this forum and, never talk about kinam again but I will personally give 10k USD to anyone who fulfill this challenge. and everyone who read this post is a witness.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

thank you all for the fun time and please accept my sincere apology if I directly or indirectly offended anyone in anyway, it is truly not my intention.
thank you all and regards and love to you

Alex

Don’t try to deviate from the real issue and brush aside the fact that it was you who started this whole fiasco. It was you who approached the Ouddict community. Furthermore it was your self-promotion, company advertising that lead us to question your intentions, your lab test as well as your product that have been called to question over bold claims of being from the same category of precious wood known as “Kinam”. The onus is on you to verify and substantiate you claims beyond a shadow of doubt.

It is quite mind boggling that you are willing to put up 10k USD, but unwilling to spend considerably less to put this matter to rest through the many opportunities given to you. The latest suggestion by @Woodland Note ref #180 also has merit. It is a fair-minded and reasonable suggestion in addition to the fact that it is quite common within communities that when a problem or disagreement arises it is referred to the elders to make a decision. We have reputable and well-respected elders within the community who also happen to be very well experienced and well informed individuals in this particular field. If you truly believe in the quality of your product and have nothing to hide, this should have been done from the very beginning. It is the best support and promotion you could get!

 

[VPhong]

Dear most of the members didn't eve knew there is cultivated kinam, I'm not sure who are you trying to convince what I said is very clear.
this statement "there is nothing to market dear we are not collaborated or associated with any company farm or vendor we are not advertising a site that sell or promote kinam”, Alex Post #154
is true I'm not marketing it I'm saying be careful of anyone who say I'm selling wild kianm because there is no such animal
this statement
" I would say get a high quality "cultivated kinam" 5 years or more, try it and smell it and enjoy it rather than just arguing and talking about wild and ancient kinam without having a clue how it smells or what it is like to burn it on a slow low heat electrical burner with a cup of Chinese tea or some real good coffee”, Alex Post #122
is also true since most the members on this forum including yourself had no idea how a cultivated kinam looks after few years and I posted the pictures and explained it.
your way of talking and arguing is the lest to say unprofessional and uneducated and I will not go down to this level. believe whatever you want and say whatever you want and buy whatever kind of rare wild kinam you get offered. just don't try to convince others that you are right because you are not. this is the truth.

Here is my sincere advice to you.
Be OPEN, HONEST and SINCERE with your actions.
Don’t join up and interact with us under a PRETENSE.

You would definitely earn more credit and perhaps even be given more leeway. If you want to sell something, just be open and honest about it. Sincerity makes you shine, it is a beautiful thing. Don’t play on this pretense that you are not interested in selling a product, have no interest in advertising your company, doing us a favor by sharing your invaluable insights on kinam …. then doing these things. Ouddict is blessed with vendors and sellers who have integrity and all this resistance you are experiencing, we are simply fighting to maintain that in this community.

 

[John]

So JK is lying about the sinking grade Black Kyara wood he is selling as well as Ensar is lying about the Vietnamese Red Kyara and Kevin is lying about the Vietnamese Green/White Kyara that he is currently selling for 700 per gram that he says is from true wild material? I find it funny how you were selling Kevin's cultivated Chinese Kyara for a nice hefty 120 mark up.

I really don't care what people do and how they mark up the products they sell but for overall the reason i found Agarwood so special was the fact that finding a tree in the wild that is sick of NATURAL cause not sliced injected or nailed by man is such a awesome awe recognition of the Unseen Made Seen. A true gift we respect and bless all who come in contact with that lingering presence in the air or the aura surrounding the structure we call the body.

Peace and love.

 

[Oudamberlove]

I have just seen many posts about the make up of incense somehow influencing the form of the smoke that streams off the stick

You’ve got to be born yesterday to fall for that one