MFH - Experiments & Materials

[Mr.P]

All right very good… you are heating dried peat moss in a closed container with the goal of condensing whatever is driven out of the moss onto the side of the container and then extracting that residue with some liquid?

I did something similar with CK - the resulting alcohol wasn't exactly beautiful but it has some interesting aspects that I can imagine adding some interesting subtle characteristics to a perfume. I sent samples to several forum members over the last year or so but it seems it's hard to get people to share their thoughts about things... either that or they don't smell good and people are just being polite 😂

 

[roflwaffle]

Hmm, while thoroughly shaking the jar with ethanol, quite a bit of 'smoke' keeps sticking to the glass, not sure how much aroma ended up in the ethanol..

I know that peak smoke itself is quite tenacous, so if you don't get results with a pure ethanol extract a pyrolized 'bong' (for lack of a better word) type setup may yield interesting results if you figure out how to get suction on such an apparatus

 

[MaxFromHolland]

All right very good… you are heating dried peat moss in a closed container with the goal of condensing whatever is driven out of the moss onto the side of the container and then extracting that residue with some liquid?

I did something similar with CK - the resulting alcohol wasn't exactly beautiful but it has some interesting aspects that I can imagine adding some interesting subtle characteristics to a perfume. I sent samples to several forum members over the last year or so but it seems it's hard to get people to share their thoughts about things... either that or they don't smell good and people are just being polite 😂

I remember your posts with the jar. Did you notice any issues washing the walls of the jar with ethanol?

I know that peak smoke itself is quite tenacous, so if you don't get results with a pure ethanol extract a pyrolized 'bong' (for lack of a better word) type setup may yield interesting results if you figure out how to get suction on such an apparatus

I get plenty of smoke inside the jar, but the residue that forms on the walls seem to prefer staying there rather than dissolving in the ethanol..
After washing the jar i went to clean it and as soon as it was filled with water the walls got sticky and somewhat opaque. I put it aside filled with cold water and noticed the smoke scent rising from the water..

 

[MaxFromHolland]

I remember your posts with the jar. Did you notice any issues washing the walls of the jar with ethanol?

I get plenty of smoke inside the jar, but the residue that forms on the walls seem to prefer staying there rather than dissolving in the ethanol..
After washing the jar i went to clean it and as soon as it was filled with water the walls got sticky and somewhat opaque. I put it aside filled with cold water and noticed the smoke scent rising from the water..

Seems part dissolves in alcohol and part should dissolve in fat. I will do a trial post smoking:
Tansfer the 25gr peat to tincture bottle
Pre wash smokejar with 10 gr ipm and rubber scraper
Add 115 gr ethanol and shake smokejar
Pour mixture in tincture bottle
Extraction time wait
Filter & Evap ethanol
10 gr scented ipm as end product

First need to go do payed labour though 🙂

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Seems part dissolves in alcohol and part should dissolve in fat. I will do a trial post smoking:
Tansfer the 25gr peat to tincture bottle
Pre wash smokejar with 10 gr ipm and rubber scraper
Add 115 gr ethanol and shake smokejar
Pour mixture in tincture bottle
Extraction time wait
Filter & Evap ethanol
10 gr scented ipm as end product

First need to go do payed labour though 🙂

Maybe i try to get things to fancy once again and a simple tinfoil pouch is better for more direct heat. Plus i can fold the pouch backwards and include it in the jar with the botanical for further extraction.
Testing that now..

Grid is (ab)used to weight the pouch down. Got two batches prepared, peat and pinebark.

 

[Mr.P]

I remember your posts with the jar. Did you notice any issues washing the walls of the jar with ethanol?

I get plenty of smoke inside the jar, but the residue that forms on the walls seem to prefer staying there rather than dissolving in the ethanol..
After washing the jar i went to clean it and as soon as it was filled with water the walls got sticky and somewhat opaque. I put it aside filled with cold water and noticed the smoke scent rising from the water..

I just produced the vapor in the jar and allowed it all to cool down after I was done swapping the wood in and out.

Poured 200 proof ethanol into the mason jar that I had used, swirled it around for a while, let it sit for a while, decanted that liquid. Indeed there was a little bit of sticky residue left and I didn't bother to try to clean it out I just set that jar aside and I will reuse it for the same thing if I ever decide to do it again.

This is kind of an aside, but for what it's worth I felt no need to concentrate it further, it made a reasonably potent perfume strength smoky extract that satisfied my curiosity and was strong enough to wear with an impact that was noticeable (but not invasive) for a long time afterwards.

 

[Mr.P]

Maybe i try to get things to fancy once again and a simple tinfoil pouch is better for more direct heat. Plus i can fold the pouch backwards and include it in the jar with the botanical for further extraction.
Testing that now..
View attachment 56867View attachment 56866
Grid is (ab)used to weight the pouch down. Got two batches prepared, peat and pinebark.

I almost wonder if you'd have better results with a puffed up foil pouch so that there was some space into which gases could expand etc. If it's pressed flat any outgassing is going to have to find a way out if there's no chamber for it to fill and fluids/gases are pretty good at finding the shortest path through things like this. compressing with the metal will also bring everything to a uniform temperature so you won't have cooler surfaces for things to condense on.

this seems like a good set up if the goal is even uniform heat transformation of the stuff that remains in whatever is in the pouch but I think all the gases will be lost?

 

[MaxFromHolland]

I almost wonder if you'd have better results with a puffed up foil pouch so that there was some space into which gases could expand etc. If it's pressed flat any outgassing is going to have to find a way out if there's no chamber for it to fill and fluids/gases are pretty good at finding the shortest path through things like this. compressing with the metal will also bring everything to a uniform temperature so you won't have cooler surfaces for things to condense on.

this seems like a good set up if the goal is even uniform heat transformation of the stuff that remains in whatever is in the pouch but I think all the gases will be lost?

That may be a good point indeed..

I'm kind of unable to make up my mind, pouch versus glass jar. I think i just need to try and compare all sorts.

If i understand correctly the stuff that doesn't wash off the glass wall with ethanol contains al lot of the fragrance, may depend on the botanical whether it would be missed or not. I don't mind putting ipm in that early as that will be the carrier anyway. Will try test that later today. Now if that clock would slow down a bit..🙂

 

[Mr.P]

That may be a good point indeed..

I'm kind of unable to make up my mind, pouch versus glass jar. I think i just need to try and compare all sorts.

If i understand correctly the stuff that doesn't wash off the glass wall with ethanol contains al lot of the fragrance, may depend on the botanical whether it would be missed or not. I don't mind putting ipm in that early as that will be the carrier anyway. Will try test that later today. Now if that clock would slow down a bit..🙂

I wonder… I suspect there are some long chain polymers and things like that in those very resistant residues that may not really be that important aromatically although they may have some fixative properties. For me at least it was a very thin layer of that residue and by keeping it in contact with alcohol for a somewhat extended period of time I'm pretty confident that the volatile aromatic substances had enough time and diffused to equilibrium; as I imagine it, the amount remaining in the thin tar (?) layer was minimal so I felt pretty confident that I'd captured what I was looking for. I'm also currently really only interested in alcohol soluble fractions so that also makes it a little easier for me.

One thing that you are probably ahead of me on here is the temperature can make a difference and so maybe putting that jar with alcohol in it in a hot water bath might soften that stiff stuff up enough to allow that stuff on the walls to flow. Whether it makes a difference or not I don't know but obviously the sticky and thick things tend to be less so when they are hot and so a little bit easier to shake loose, displace, smear out, etc.

Another option might be to wipe the whole thing down with filter paper and get all of that sticky stuff onto the paper surface which you can then put into a jar with whatever solvent you want to use and try to dissolve it out from the paper. I'm not sure how thick the residues are that you're dealing with, in my case it was thick enough to have some little pools but overall quite thin

 

[MaxFromHolland]

I wonder… I suspect there are some long chain polymers and things like that in those very resistant residues that may not really be that important aromatically although they may have some fixative properties. For me at least it was a very thin layer of that residue and by keeping it in contact with alcohol for a somewhat extended period of time I'm pretty confident that the volatile aromatic substances had enough time and diffused to equilibrium; as I imagine it, the amount remaining in the thin tar (?) layer was minimal so I felt pretty confident that I'd captured what I was looking for. I'm also currently really only interested in alcohol soluble fractions so that also makes it a little easier for me.

One thing that you are probably ahead of me on here is the temperature can make a difference and so maybe putting that jar with alcohol in it in a hot water bath might soften that stiff stuff up enough to allow that stuff on the walls to flow. Whether it makes a difference or not I don't know but obviously the sticky and thick things tend to be less so when they are hot and so a little bit easier to shake loose, displace, smear out, etc.

Another option might be to wipe the whole thing down with filter paper and get all of that sticky stuff onto the paper surface which you can then put into a jar with whatever solvent you want to use and try to dissolve it out from the paper. I'm not sure how thick the residues are that you're dealing with, in my case it was thick enough to have some little pools but overall quite thin

Just a very thin layer which i wouldn't have thought twice about if i had not noticed that the water i put in it prior to cleaning took up a smoke scent. If i manage to get some conclusive results i'll post them.

Peat in pouch failed, that may confirm gasses being lost, unable to condensate anywhere with that weighting down..

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Moved outside to the hotplate of the still.
You can see condensate on the lid coloured by whatever it is that evaporates from the pine bark.
There is a thin layer of sand under the glass as thermal buffer and to close possible airgap between plate and glass.

Botanical + condensated gasses in ethanol to extract whatever there is left in the wood. Will see what i end up with. Current odour sharp to the point of hostile (even though i did leave out the initial acids). There are two more jars, another (likely failed) pine variation and a peat.

Oh if you can't imagine the safety precautions, better don't copy..

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Contemplating a patchouli based co-distillation:

I wanted to place some light wood next to the patch and will use Virginia cedar wood for that. With caraway seed i'll extend the cedar to a fresh spicy/anise like top. And with some pink pepper i'll extend the spice into the heart. Some chamomile blossoms and lavender flowers seems like a nice way to add a herbal tea-floral note, trying to avoid the more common choices. Finally i'll include orris root to make the oil more dry and smooth.

Some ingredients are still en-route and i need to smell their strength to dream up the proper balance. I'll share the formula when everything is in the pot.

Will be multi day slow hydro, at least 3 days.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Contemplating a patchouli based co-distillation:

I wanted to place some light wood next to the patch and will use Virginia cedar wood for that. With caraway seed i'll extend the cedar to a fresh spicy/anise like top. And with some pink pepper i'll extend the spice into the heart. Some chamomile blossoms and lavender flowers seems like a nice way to add a herbal tea-floral note, trying to avoid the more common choices. Finally i'll include orris root to make the oil more dry and smooth.

Some ingredients are still en-route and i need to smell their strength to dream up the proper balance. I'll share the formula when everything is in the pot.

Will be multi day slow hydro, at least 3 days.

Hm, i had put some carawayseed in ethanol, that i just finished. Had not expected the musky note lingering below. Thought one would have to opt for cumin to get that instead..

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Tasting some of this years harvest ling heather honey. Lovely bitter aftertaste. We had a somewhat poor harvest with summer bee-ing to dry, but managed to get some anyway.
Reminds me to dig up my chestnut honey tincture which is maturing, for a bit of sampling..

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Chestnut Honey extract

Twas a pain in the backdoor to make, but scent is excellent, basically the honey minus most sweetness. I'll probably use it to swipe neat. Just paint a patch on my wrist to sniff and enjoy the rich profile.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Have been sniffing a sample of Naseem, which is pure velvet btw and got intrigued by the rose and black pepper combination. Painted a small patch of that honey from prev post with a dot of apothecary rose and black pepper on my arm which is fun, smelling the rose and honey notes while feeling the pepper - if that makes any sense. Layering is the best invention since coffee 🙂

 

[Zubayr]

Have been sniffing a sample of Naseem, which is pure velvet btw and got intrigued by the rose and black pepper combination. Painted a small patch of that honey from prev post with a dot of apothecary rose and black pepper on my arm which is fun, smelling the rose and honey notes while feeling the pepper - if that makes any sense. Layering is the best invention since coffee 🙂

I applied some as well today after a long time. Curious to know what your thoughts are about it

 

[MaxFromHolland]

I applied some as well today after a long time. Curious to know what your thoughts are about it

I was very happy to get 2 samples of co-distillations with my order, because i try to learn to do that proper and this is a great opportunity to study what can be achieved once one masters it.
The smoothness and balance i think is pretty awesome. Everything is so well integrated that my amateur nose is having a hard time to pick out individual notes. But its not the purpose of a composition to go hunt for the individual parts instead of enjoying it as a whole.
For my personal taste, the rose could have been a bit less. Don't think i have taken a deliberate sniff without seeing pink roses 🙂 But with the rose as key balancing and smoothing ingredient its most likely not possible to tone it down without ruining the whole thing. At the same time i love how playful that pepper works in the whole, Fun ingredient.
Oh talking about fun, sometimes i smell a dog?

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Had some issues trying to concentrate the tincture from the peatproject before, losing topnotes.
Now try to go from 500ml tincture to 150ml IPM in one go, to get a 3x concentrate for the scent machine.
Figuring IPM may be more attractive than evaporation for those lightfooted molecules.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Had some issues trying to concentrate the tincture from the peatproject before, losing topnotes.
Now try to go from 500ml tincture to 150ml IPM in one go, to get a 3x concentrate for the scent machine.
Figuring IPM may be more attractive than evaporation for those lightfooted molecules.
View attachment 56942

Doesn't help.
Guess ill be distilling nutmeg and cardamom monday to put the topnotes back in.

My first version was a blend of extract and distillation because i didn't get much of the coffee and peat distilling and didn't manage to keep the cardamom and nutmeg topnotes when processing the extraction. Guess i have to face the fact that there's no shortcut for the peatproject if i want it to smell magic.