MFH - Experiments & Materials

[MaxFromHolland]

Started a new project.
Think a jungle where the rain just stopped.
A moment of stillness, fresh air, soon the sun will return..

%'s will follow when i get them right 🙂

 

[roflwaffle]

Started a new project.
Think a jungle where the rain just stopped.
A moment of stillness, fresh air, soon the sun will return..
View attachment 56957
%'s will follow when i get them right 🙂

Interesting to see someone choose to use bouya, I thought it was generally... Not great? But I've not smelled it. What's it like?

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Interesting to see someone choose to use bouya, I thought it was generally... Not great? But I've not smelled it. What's it like?

That's matter of perspective. It has a similar mid brown drydown like the Guaiac i have, but adds all sorts of moist bark, fungal, wet rotting wood notes. One could even dream up smelling an animal hiding in all that. So compared to Guaiac is has a much richer profile, perfectly fitting the theme of the project, pulling the moist of the greens into the browns.

But yeah, its a poor substitute for, say, wild Merauke @ 20 times the price 🙂

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Started a new project.
Think a jungle where the rain just stopped.
A moment of stillness, fresh air, soon the sun will return..
View attachment 56957
%'s will follow when i get them right 🙂

First mod 🙂
Base to dark for a 'returning sun'. Added Copaiba to make the base more light and transparent, to put a focus on evaporation of various aromas when everything warms up and begins to dry. Just enough Benzoin left to provide the Labdanum with a little bit of contrast. Or so i try 🙂

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Needed more space. Wonder for how long this will suffice 😁

Fun fact, now La Verde is done*, for which i interpreted the main notes of Nicolaï Vetyver, i thought it would be fun to source a used bottle of the 'original'. There's zero resemblance, which was to be expected.
I don't know if i should love or hate the perfume, maybe both. Its waaay to loud for my taste, but at the same time i can see how this is a statement towards Guerlain.
I'll keep it around in case i ever feel a desire to be gasping for air 🙂

*Is it ever?

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Needed more space. Wonder for how long this will suffice 😁
View attachment 56999

Fun fact, now La Verde is done*, for which i interpreted the main notes of Nicolaï Vetyver, i thought it would be fun to source a used bottle of the 'original'. There's zero resemblance, which was to be expected.
I don't know if i should love or hate the perfume, maybe both. Its waaay to loud for my taste, but at the same time i can see how this is a statement towards Guerlain.
I'll keep it around in case i ever feel a desire to be gasping for air 🙂

*Is it ever?

That said, with Guerlain left arm and Nicolaï right arm, its like she reversed things, background spice becomes foreground; Guerlains opening notes lingering in the background; may be my amateur nose talking rubbish though.
At least a nice symbolism that they both dry down similar with an elegantly polished vetiver 🙂

Still also have vetiver on both wrists, layered with 2 different patchoulies which was to study. Kind of fun to let nose wander trough the 4 variations and a few decades.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

First mod 🙂
Base to dark for a 'returning sun'. Added Copaiba to make the base more light and transparent, to put a focus on evaporation of various aromas when everything warms up and begins to dry. Just enough Benzoin left to provide the Labdanum with a little bit of contrast. Or so i try 🙂

So far i managed to overdose the Galbanum and i have second thoughts about the Cedar. Together they do this vertical dry wood note, which i thought would be good for a bit of structure and, idk, some sort of axis for the other notes to move around.

Somehow during the open there is a brief note of decay from some animal. While i don't mind such a little poke, i have no clue where it comes from.

Labdanum resinoid aint fun to work with if you dont formulate for alcohol based 😮‍💨

Fyi, far from what is should become:


Edit:
Made another trial, leaving out both Cedar and Benzoin. Leave both versions alone for a week or so and then find out next step. Perhaps some Opoponax for some golden warmth in the base. Thought that would be to spicy or smoky, but now think it is a better colour match.

To be continued 🙂

 

[MaxFromHolland]

So far i managed to overdose the Galbanum and i have second thoughts about the Cedar. Together they do this vertical dry wood note, which i thought would be good for a bit of structure and, idk, some sort of axis for the other notes to move around.

Somehow during the open there is a brief note of decay from some animal. While i don't mind such a little poke, i have no clue where it comes from.

Labdanum resinoid aint fun to work with if you dont formulate for alcohol based 😮‍💨

Fyi, far from what is should become:
View attachment 57032

Edit:
Made another trial, leaving out both Cedar and Benzoin. Leave both versions alone for a week or so and then find out next step. Perhaps some Opoponax for some golden warmth in the base. Thought that would be to spicy or smoky, but now think it is a better colour match.
View attachment 57036
To be continued 🙂

#1 Rubbish. #2 Utter rubbish..
Will redesign the base to actually contain dry woody material 🌦️Then see how it connects to the rest and if it needs a dot of something for atmosphere. Live & learn, as always..

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Soaking.
Co-distillation of

Patchouli - 12,5 parts
Red Cedar - 6,25 parts
Lavender - 2,5 parts
Chamomile - 2,5 parts
Caraway seed - 2 parts
Orrisroot - 2 parts
Pink pepper - 1 part

15 hr soak
Hydro distillation
Theoretical runtime 36 hr - will decide actual runtime on scent of hydrosol, hope i can do longer

 

[MaxFromHolland]

#1 Rubbish. #2 Utter rubbish..

Humid Stillness project

Third attempt to get a good starting point.
I'm in a rambling mood, so let me type a brief explanation what i'm trying here.
For the open i want a fresh cold breeze. Eucalyptus can provide that. Adding mint abs for a bit more rounded elegance. Violet leaf abs to introduce moist green during/ after that first breeze and some galbanum to add a touch of wood.
Fot the wet part i start with oakmoss and Haiti coeur, which is the most wet vetiver i own. Some madagascar added for a bit wider profile (second wettest i have). Patchouli for wet soil and - tricky - nagarmotha to introduce some dark brown from rotting wood or bark. Finally gaharu buaya to add more complexity and overall dirtyness.
Then the part i find most tricky, trying to get the profile to dry up, i use quite a bit of sandalwood Kupang with some atlas cedar, hoping that the sandal manages to slow down the ceder enough. Opoponax to add some darkness to the otherwise light woods.
Obviously scents dont bother with my categories, nagarmotha adding to the fresh open, violet leaf happily mingling with the vetivers and the buaya present to the end, just to point some out.
I think pretending scent just staying in a category helps to build the structure. There will be disasters and happy accidents no doubt.

Version 1,2 i called rubbish because nobody knows what i was thinking with those resins and balm. Oh well, a wandering mind gets to see places 🤓

Anyways, surely this version will be rich in flaws and might end up called rubbish too. Wont know until them molecules went through meet&greet, dating, marriage and divorce cycles aka some maturing.

Now i fancy coffee instead of rambling 🙂

Edit: added Laurel berry (Laurus nobilis fruit) @ 0,08 gr as it will pull the nagarmotha into the botanical corner and add a bit of spice to the rotting wood and bark note.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

View attachment 57062

Soaking.
Co-distillation of

View attachment 57064Patchouli - 12,5 parts
Red Cedar - 6,25 parts
Lavender - 2,5 parts
Chamomile - 2,5 parts
Caraway seed - 2 parts
Orrisroot - 2 parts
Pink pepper - 1 part

15 hr soak
Hydro distillation
Theoretical runtime 36 hr - will decide actual runtime on scent of hydrosol, hope i can do longer

There we go..

 

[MaxFromHolland]

View attachment 57062

Soaking.
Co-distillation of

View attachment 57064Patchouli - 12,5 parts
Red Cedar - 6,25 parts
Lavender - 2,5 parts
Chamomile - 2,5 parts
Caraway seed - 2 parts
Orrisroot - 2 parts
Pink pepper - 1 part

15 hr soak
Hydro distillation
Theoretical runtime 36 hr - will decide actual runtime on scent of hydrosol, hope i can do longer

Walking

The scent opens with a fierce mint and a soft mildly-sweet licorice, that remains lingering in the background while the mint slowly morphs into a somewhat spicy and bitter-green herb. Then the spice mellows and a distant haze of blue flowers appear while at the same time the green softens into something resembling dried herbs.
Rather than these slowly transform into a light woody drydown, the patchouli is exposed which is an unfortunate flaw.

It's nice to notice how the orris root provides a gradual change and overall dry softness, preventing the whole thing smelling oily. I was curious to try orris this way. Fingers crossed that a bit of maturing will take care of that patchouli oopsy, but i think it's overdosed.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Humid Stillness project

View attachment 57068
Third attempt to get a good starting point.
I'm in a rambling mood, so let me type a brief explanation what i'm trying here.
View attachment 57069For the open i want a fresh cold breeze. Eucalyptus can provide that. Adding mint abs for a bit more rounded elegance. Violet leaf abs to introduce moist green during/ after that first breeze and some galbanum to add a touch of wood.
Fot the wet part i start with oakmoss and Haiti coeur, which is the most wet vetiver i own. Some madagascar added for a bit wider profile (second wettest i have). Patchouli for wet soil and - tricky - nagarmotha to introduce some dark brown from rotting wood or bark. Finally gaharu buaya to add more complexity and overall dirtyness.
Then the part i find most tricky, trying to get the profile to dry up, i use quite a bit of sandalwood Kupang with some atlas cedar, hoping that the sandal manages to slow down the ceder enough. Opoponax to add some darkness to the otherwise light woods.
Obviously scents dont bother with my categories, nagarmotha adding to the fresh open, violet leaf happily mingling with the vetivers and the buaya present to the end, just to point some out.
I think pretending scent just staying in a category helps to build the structure. There will be disasters and happy accidents no doubt.

Version 1,2 i called rubbish because nobody knows what i was thinking with those resins and balm. Oh well, a wandering mind gets to see places 🤓

Anyways, surely this version will be rich in flaws and might end up called rubbish too. Wont know until them molecules went through meet&greet, dating, marriage and divorce cycles aka some maturing.

Now i fancy coffee instead of rambling 🙂

Edit: added Laurel berry (Laurus nobilis fruit) @ 0,08 gr as it will pull the nagarmotha into the botanical corner and add a bit of spice to the rotting wood and bark note.

I can already smell this will be rubbish as well. I keep accentuating all the wrong notes, despite the rambling above. Well, let me try to cut that habit with version 4..

If that seems to make more sense i'll replace this line with screenshot of values🥁

 

[Mr.P]

Here are my thoughts, probably simplistic to a professional perfumer but I will share them for the sake of discussion and in case there's something useful.

One thing I will say is I have to build things up step-by-step or start with somebody else's ratios because I have never been able to pull off mixing four or five or more things together in one go and then modifying or remixing based on my reaction to that level of complexity. at one point I was trying that pretty regularly and it was frustrating to be honest. For me to have any idea what's going on I have to start by studying one material, then pairing it with another and studying that. Adjusting, bringing in a third player and so on. Some of those third players could be complex mixtures in themselves like different amber bases, etc. used as a single ingredient so it doesn't restrict you to literal one ingredient at a time type creation once you have a broad selection of your own bases / accords

I recognize you are trying a different angle on perfumery and I can somewhat relate because it's a dilemma I face when making the distilled colognes. they're way too tedious to make 18 different test batches of each style, varying a single ingredient relative to the others in each batch etc., so the brute force approach that I rely on to come up with things that smell good does not help at all in this case.

My relation with those types of perfumes is very different and it's more of a mystified, unpredictable, high stakes toss of the dice type experience which I enjoy to a degree... but gaining control of the process is unbelievably slow going. Should've started when I was younger lol and I think for the type of truly original work you're doing the potential is enormous but the time acquired to gain skill is daunting

Over the course of a couple of years I may have made 20 - 30 variations on each of a dozen different typical perfumes, gained real insight into relationships and ratios and all of that… But with the distilled colognes I still feel like I'm at square one because I've only distilled five of them in my life. I do feel like I've improved my citrus ratios, and I feel like I have made some progress - the last two that I made are more appealing to me than the first two that I made, but in a time when I was able to experience dozens of dozens of variations of my own choosing for truly original creations, I had only made my fifth variation on the standard EDC form...

I guess what I'm saying is that you should be patient and I'm sure you will strike gold at some point... I am pretty much certain that if I had started by guessing with ratios of ingredients all at once, it would have taken much longer to have something I was happy with... I was a little bit too much of a chicken to try to take on that puzzle head on.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Here are my thoughts, probably simplistic to a professional perfumer but I will share them for the sake of discussion and in case there's something useful.

One thing I will say is I have to build things up step-by-step or start with somebody else's ratios because I have never been able to pull off mixing four or five or more things together in one go and then modifying or remixing based on my reaction to that level of complexity. at one point I was trying that pretty regularly and it was frustrating to be honest. For me to have any idea what's going on I have to start by studying one material, then pairing it with another and studying that. Adjusting, bringing in a third player and so on. Some of those third players could be complex mixtures in themselves like different amber bases, etc. used as a single ingredient so it doesn't restrict you to literal one ingredient at a time type creation once you have a broad selection of your own bases / accords

I recognize you are trying a different angle on perfumery and I can somewhat relate because it's a dilemma I face when making the distilled colognes. they're way too tedious to make 18 different test batches of each style, varying a single ingredient relative to the others in each batch etc., so the brute force approach that I rely on to come up with things that smell good does not help at all in this case.

My relation with those types of perfumes is very different and it's more of a mystified, unpredictable, high stakes toss of the dice type experience which I enjoy to a degree... but gaining control of the process is unbelievably slow going. Should've started when I was younger lol and I think for the type of truly original work you're doing the potential is enormous but the time acquired to gain skill is daunting

Over the course of a couple of years I may have made 20 - 30 variations on each of a dozen different typical perfumes, gained real insight into relationships and ratios and all of that… But with the distilled colognes I still feel like I'm at square one because I've only distilled five of them in my life. I do feel like I've improved my citrus ratios, and I feel like I have made some progress - the last two that I made are more appealing to me than the first two that I made, but in a time when I was able to experience dozens of dozens of variations of my own choosing for truly original creations, I had only made my fifth variation on the standard EDC form...

I guess what I'm saying is that you should be patient and I'm sure you will strike gold at some point... I am pretty much certain that if I had started by guessing with ratios of ingredients all at once, it would have taken much longer to have something I was happy with... I was a little bit too much of a chicken to try to take on that puzzle head on.

All good points.
I guess my flaw (or strenght) is that i like to work from intuition. Like with the Tibetan project, i dreamed up the blend, using notes from some existing perfume and translating them to ingredients of my choice. Then Kai replied with one of his lengthy posts offering a treasure of insights that i gratefully tried to apply. First i thought my intuitive version was rubbish with my choice of oud. But after maturing and while i was doing iterations of the 'Kai version' it turned into something beautiful, everything intergrated and nothing seems out of place anymore. Its not what i was after from a storytelling point of view, there the other version with applied advice wins.
La verde also started from intuition, that one i corrected in coarse steps. Not because I was in a hurry but because it showed me what the ingredients were doing like looking trough a magnifier glass. With more experience i may be able to recognise and correct problems without being a dancing elephant, but for now its educating and helping me, i think.
Now with stillness I try to follow the same approach, but i kind of got trapped in using a few awful strong ingredients that i also happen to like a lot by themselves. So i was sort of trying to get different results while repeating the same mistake.
But yes, such intuition method is more useful for my co-distillations and i would probably be better off slowly building the blends.
Although i do study all sorts of combinations almost daily by co-swiping oils on a wrist before i leave for work. Which allows me to study their development and interaction during the day.
But now i am thinking about it, my approach may differ also because i'm more of an impressionist and like with painting, i don't mind having a blob of brown in a cloud it that gets the atmosphere right. So that maybe renders it useless to construct a perfect blue-white shaded cloud first. Like, i was tinkering with the vetivers solo, and then they ended up soaking in buaya and with a smear of labdanum's topnotes 🤷 Though i never pass on a reason to sniff vetivers 🙂

Aww, i think i am rambling again. But yes i will try that for the next inspiration. Jot down the idea. Pick an element. Try to compose it in scent. Then build its neighbor, try to piece them together and so on.
Might be an eye opener and combined with Kai's information about roles of ingredients and all, a nice step forward. And if it doesn't suit me, likely there are lessons learned in trying.

Edit Yes, that one-shot roll of the dice thing of a co-distillation has its charm. But there too it takes quite a few shots to get a just moderate ability to predict the outcome. I don't dare to think about reaching some level of mastery. Or maybe i do but in awarness of the odds of getting there 🙂

 

[roflwaffle]

All makes sense. I've not tried a codistillation as it seems like quite a commitment and adds many more variables. Though would be interesting to take them as cuts as things will change over the run, so you can end up with several samples across one run.

I think from the above pic, smaller trial runs are also something to consider, at least for cost reasons, the above blend would have been probably able to make as like 1-2ml instead of the amount you made there. Gives you less cost per trial. You could also look at making some dilutions if you run into limitations of your scale, but for small number of material blends, less necessary. Or if you make them in the larger amount, just make that with the known/safe materials, then take aliquots and try ratios of your other proposed materials. Jean carles method is also worth being familiar with

 

[MaxFromHolland]

All makes sense. I've not tried a codistillation as it seems like quite a commitment and adds many more variables. Though would be interesting to take them as cuts as things will change over the run, so you can end up with several samples across one run.

I think from the above pic, smaller trial runs are also something to consider, at least for cost reasons, the above blend would have been probably able to make as like 1-2ml instead of the amount you made there. Gives you less cost per trial. You could also look at making some dilutions if you run into limitations of your scale, but for small number of material blends, less necessary. Or if you make them in the larger amount, just make that with the known/safe materials, then take aliquots and try ratios of your other proposed materials. Jean carles method is also worth being familiar with

Yes, these last tests are 2,5-3g each. 10 mg steps are about as accurate as i can work with current tools. But yeah rough estimate every fail is $15👋
La verde was made with dilutions, cheaper and easier for sure.
When the new can of IPM got stuck in transit and i wanted to start, i took te gamble of not wasting to much.

I don't tinker with the co-distillations. For me that would defeat the purpose. My only involvement is regular sampling some hydrosol to determine the end of the run (which usually is later than the point where all the oil crossed over).

I have read the JC method publications but dont see myself formulating like that. The 2 material study is nice though.

 

[roflwaffle]

For me that would defeat the purpose.

Curious. I mean even if your point is everything from the pot, collecting fractions and smelling them separately costs nothing and adds knowledge to how materials come over and when. Seems like valuable information to be aware of.

Maybe it was flawless until late fractions when nasties came over, maybe the early fraction is gnarly and harsh. I dunno. For me, when you take cuts is just as much part of the skill as every other variable, though Ive never been much interested in codistillations vs running them separately, so I guess I don't know your motivations.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Curious. I mean even if your point is everything from the pot, collecting fractions and smelling them separately costs nothing and adds knowledge to how materials come over and when. Seems like valuable information to be aware of.

Maybe it was flawless until late fractions when nasties came over, maybe the early fraction is gnarly and harsh. I dunno. For me, when you take cuts is just as much part of the skill as every other variable, though Ive never been much interested in codistillations vs running them separately, so I guess I don't know your motivations.

That's not quite true. A removed fraction doesn't get to be influenced by the ever richer hydrosol that keeps going round and round due to the cohobation. Like with this run, fresh from the still everything is already modified by the orris root, if you're in an alchemy mood - the magic already happened. It may end up similar with re-combined fractions after maturing. But similar is not same.
For me the joy is to get everything right, even if just in theory due to moderate skills. For me that means soft steam, soft condensation, controlling the cohobation, listening to the hydrosol, all that.

 

[roflwaffle]

That's not quite true. A removed fraction doesn't get to be influenced by the ever richer hydrosol that keeps going round and round due to the cohobation. Like with this run, fresh from the still everything is already modified by the orris root, if you're in an alchemy mood - the magic already happened. It may end up similar with re-combined fractions after maturing. But similar is not same.
For me the joy is to get everything right, even if just in theory due to moderate skills. For me that means soft steam, soft condensation, controlling the cohobation, listening to the hydrosol, all that.

Fair, but you could still take aliquots as you go to monitor changes without impacting the full run. But hey, if you're happy with that route, that's all that matters!