plantation crassna

[roflwaffle]

Many people send their agarwood to the team that wrote this paper for testing to determine if it's wild-grown, but they all refuse because there are no significant distinguishing features, especially in OUD oil. This paper focuses on agarwood extract, not distilled OUD. As I mentioned, wild OUD has a longer resin formation time, resulting in a higher concentration of chromones, which leads to noticeable differences in high-temperature environments. However, the differences are not significant in distilled OUD oil.

Interesting. It is curious that of all the new novel markers in the 'more complex' chemical makeup, not a single one comes over in distillation, despite some level of chromones coming in over into the tails, 100.0% of the complexity is all of the heaviest fraction that is left behind. Unless you mean that its not definitive in cases where tighter cuts are taken.

Unfortunately that paper doesnt list the compounds, so spot checking becomes more laborious 😀

 

[roflwaffle]

https://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/16/6/4884

sinensis paper, but shows even in an oil, a fairly significant difference, however the paper is fairly flawed in that S1 is an overly young tree, at overly young innoculation, so not terribly useful either way. Still somewhat interesting I suppose.

That was also the paper that showed that even white wood contained trace amounts of agarwood chemicals, they presumed because even after the tree died, there was a bit of a death rattle on the dead sections that formed the protection reponse, which I found interesting.

https://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/18/3/3086

another oil comparison -- while they are pushing heavily towards their own method, even they acknowledge that they only 'approach' wild, in quality and smell, however they cherry picked 16 markers that convieniently they were closest to reproducing so also less of a proof either way other tahn their own acknowledgment they could not surpass older formations. But I'll concede, as they left out exact reasons for that, also not definitive. They left it with a handwavey 'well maybe it just needs more time to form'

still looking for a specific paper, but its slow going understandably

 

[hutou]

Interesting. It is curious that of all the new novel markers in the 'more complex' chemical makeup, not a single one comes over in distillation, despite some level of chromones coming in over into the tails, 100.0% of the complexity is all of the heaviest fraction that is left behind. Unless you mean that its not definitive in cases where tighter cuts are taken.

Unfortunately that paper doesnt list the compounds, so spot checking becomes more laborious 😀

The distillation of the rear part is the key to the old tree resin. What really reflects the difference is indeed the high temperature stage of oud.Speaking of which, I still have a unique secret to evolve the high-temperature area of oud,hahaha.

 

[roflwaffle]

Think that depends on whether it is a commercial production distillation or artisan slow process that allows at least a good part of the heavy components to distill over (chromones 300+ hrs). I wouldn't know how else a good nose can tell the difference.

Seems like a good point. If judging an oil in a vacuum, a long distillation run of a young wood would show more of these chromones and markers than a fast sloppy run quality wood. I think our distillers like to say that process matters as much as the wood, so there may be some truth to that. Some of the heavier compounds break into things like Benzylacetone and agarotetrol which is not found in the wood directly (https://cir.nii.ac.jp/crid/1050282813764847360), so some of these chromone derivatives being found in the oil, but not in the wood is another way that even the novel chromones can affect the oil "These results indicate that agarotetrol, a chromone derivative, contributes to the fragrance of agarwood through the generation of LACs upon heating." (and found in the oil)

 

[hutou]

https://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/16/6/4884

sinensis paper, but shows even in an oil, a fairly significant difference, however the paper is fairly flawed in that S1 is an overly young tree, at overly young innoculation, so not terribly useful either way. Still somewhat interesting I suppose.

That was also the paper that showed that even white wood contained trace amounts of agarwood chemicals, they presumed because even after the tree died, there was a bit of a death rattle on the dead sections that formed the protection reponse, which I found interesting.

https://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/18/3/3086

another oil comparison -- while they are pushing heavily towards their own method, even they acknowledge that they only 'approach' wild, in quality and smell, however they cherry picked 16 markers that convieniently they were closest to reproducing so also less of a proof either way other tahn their own acknowledgment they could not surpass older formations. But I'll concede, as they left out exact reasons for that, also not definitive. They left it with a handwavey 'well maybe it just needs more time to form'

still looking for a specific paper, but its slow going understandably

I think the defects are still huge. The first paper. Chemically damaged Ode is actually not commonly used in plantations. In the second paper, the short-term infection using microbial incense is not convincing. If you use knife cutting, fire drill or insect infection, it can last for a long time. Will this difference be eased? According to my test experience, the individual differences in the ratio of hemiterpenes at different times are quite large. For example, I have tested a sesame oil that does not contain a-Eudesmol plantation oud, but other isomers.

 

[roflwaffle]

I think the defects are still huge. The first paper. Chemically damaged Ode is actually not commonly used in plantations. In the second paper, the short-term infection using microbial incense is not convincing. If you use knife cutting, fire drill or insect infection, it can last for a long time. Will this difference be eased? According to my test experience, the individual differences in the ratio of hemiterpenes at different times are quite large. For example, I have tested a sesame oil that does not contain a-Eudesmol plantation oud, but other isomers.

Yes, I mentioned that both were problematic and not direct evidence either way, lol

paper is fairly flawed i

But I'll concede, as they left out exact reasons for that, also not definitive.

I'm just tossing up papers that touch on the subject rather than cherry pick, figured if I'm digging through old saved links, others might find interest in them, so we can all learn together rather than just base discussion on 'my friend said' and anecdotals, which is less interesting than the world of published research that can be reviewed for bias and flawed experimentation or gaps.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Seems like a good point. If judging an oil in a vacuum, a long distillation run of a young wood would show more of these chromones and markers than a fast sloppy run quality wood. I think our distillers like to say that process matters as much as the wood, so there may be some truth to that. Some of the heavier compounds break into things like Benzylacetone and agarotetrol which is not found in the wood directly (https://cir.nii.ac.jp/crid/1050282813764847360), so some of these chromone derivatives being found in the oil, but not in the wood is another way that even the novel chromones can affect the oil "These results indicate that agarotetrol, a chromone derivative, contributes to the fragrance of agarwood through the generation of LACs upon heating." (and found in the oil)

If the average labtest is 12-48 hrs then indeed age differences wont show. But that does not mean age is insignificant, it means the labtest is not adequate to answer the question.. Dangerous to mix that up 🙂

 

[roflwaffle]

If the average labtest is 12-48 hrs then indeed age differences wont show. But that does not mean age is insignificant, it means the labtest is not adequate to answer the question.. Dangerous to mix that up 🙂

Certianly didnt mean to mix that up, sorry if it came out wrong. I more meant that a lab 'test for age' would have trouble if a short run distillation was presented as a sample with no information about its production (hence in a vacuum). I think its more that the sample may inadvertantly strip the markers that would provide the value or information to make such a determination, nothing more. A poorly distilled quality wood could potentially strip if not quality, at least markers of its age. Unless you meant even with a cut fraction, that the hypothetical test methodology is still inadequate?

Or maybe I'm just missing something obvious, it does happen.

 

[hutou]

Yes, I mentioned that both were problematic and not direct evidence either way, lol




I'm just tossing up papers that touch on the subject rather than cherry pick, figured if I'm digging through old saved links, others might find interest in them, so we can all learn together rather than just base discussion on 'my friend said' and anecdotals, which is less interesting than the world of published research that can be reviewed for bias and flawed experimentation or gaps.

Because of the limitations of the thesis, not all experimental findings will be published. I can only collect some of the information I need. I often test Oud oil by myself. There are several points that need to be corrected. There is already Benzylacetone in Oud. I have never seen anyone deliberately distil heavy molecules in distillation because it may not have a pleasant smell.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Certianly didnt mean to mix that up, sorry if it came out wrong. I more meant that a lab 'test for age' would have trouble if a short run distillation was presented as a sample with no information about its production (hence in a vacuum). I think its more that the sample may inadvertantly strip the markers that would provide the value or information to make such a determination, nothing more. A poorly distilled quality wood could potentially strip if not quality, at least markers of its age. Unless you meant even with a cut fraction, that the hypothetical test methodology is still inadequate?

Or maybe I'm just missing something obvious, it does happen.

No, i just try to dispute that age differences wont show in the oil. And i think that if distillation was rejected as test method for the research i linked to, its because that would be a std lab distillation, which is inadequate for agarwood. But that is not a confirmation that age wont show in an oil. If they had distilled all samples used for that chart for 16-20 days you would have ended up with a similar looking chart, if not showing the difference even more clearly due to the time/heat effect.

All else mentioned is beyond the boundaries of my knowledge 🙂

 

[MaxFromHolland]

I have never seen anyone deliberately distil heavy molecules in distillation because it may not have a pleasant smell.

Neither does civet and yet it works wonders to bring a scent to life and give it great depth..
Thats the art of perfumery as well as the art of distillation.

 

[roflwaffle]

There is already Benzylacetone in Oud.

"Low molecular weight aromatic compounds (LACs) such as benzylacetone are emitted from agarwood on heating and have a sedative effect on mice. These are detected exclusively in the headspace vapor of heated agarwood and are absent in the wood itself; .... The essential oil and hydrosol of agarwood obtained by distillation were analyzed by gas chromatography–mass spectrometry (GC–MS). .... Benzylacetone and other LACs were detected. "

Hm.. then for whatever reason that paper got it wrong. Curious. Wonder where they went wrong there, and how that passed their claimed peer review. Have a source to show that?

 

[hutou]

"Low molecular weight aromatic compounds (LACs) such as benzylacetone are emitted from agarwood on heating and have a sedative effect on mice. These are detected exclusively in the headspace vapor of heated agarwood and are absent in the wood itself; .... The essential oil and hydrosol of agarwood obtained by distillation were analyzed by gas chromatography–mass spectrometry (GC–MS). .... Benzylacetone and other LACs were detected. "

Hm.. then for whatever reason that paper got it wrong. Curious. Wonder where they went wrong there, and how that passed their claimed peer review. Have a source to show that?

I just checked the GCMS data for the aromatherapy sticks, and I might have misremembered. Kynam distilled oil has a low benzyllacetone content, but Kynam has a fairly high proportion of chromone thermal decomposition precursors. Benzolacetone is present in all distilled OUD oils. I didn't realize it reached the distillation temperature required for chromone thermal decomposition.

 

[roflwaffle]

Benzolacetone is present in all distilled OUD oils

Right, they stated that it appears in both heated and oils, but not in the wood itself and noted it as a chromone breakdown byproduct, nobody disputes its in oils 😀

It is admittedly all hard to keep straight, so no worries.

 

[hutou]

"Low molecular weight aromatic compounds (LACs) such as benzylacetone are emitted from agarwood on heating and have a sedative effect on mice. These are detected exclusively in the headspace vapor of heated agarwood and are absent in the wood itself; .... The essential oil and hydrosol of agarwood obtained by distillation were analyzed by gas chromatography–mass spectrometry (GC–MS). .... Benzylacetone and other LACs were detected. "

Hm.. then for whatever reason that paper got it wrong. Curious. Wonder where they went wrong there, and how that passed their claimed peer review. Have a source to show that?

I've always believed that benzylacetone has two sources: 1) it's naturally present in OUD, and 2) it's a product of thermal decomposition. However, I just reviewed another paper that also detected benzylacetone in the diethyl ether extract