wasimlondon

Oud Beginner
Trying to Recreate the True Scent of a Fresh Rose – Advice Needed

I've been experimenting with exceptionally high-quality, genuine rose oils, including Bulgarian Rosa damascena Otto, Bulgarian White Rose (Rosa alba) Otto, and Turkish Isparta Rosa damascena Otto.

My challenge is that none of these oils smell anywhere near an actual fresh rose flower on their own. I get green, citrusy and sometimes slightly medicinal notes rather than that beautiful, sweet, natural rose-petal aroma.

To my nose, they don't even capture 30% of the scent of an actual fresh rose, if that makes sense. Perhaps this is simply how all rose ottos smell, regardless of their origin or quality?

I normally blend them with pure Mysore sandalwood, but the results remain much the same.

I have absolutely no doubts about the quality or authenticity of these oils. They are superb. I'm simply trying to understand how to work with them properly and haven't managed to achieve the results I'm looking for.

What could I do with these particular oils to achieve the exact scent, or something very close to, a freshly opened natural rose? Is there a particular blending technique or natural ingredient that could help bring out that beautiful, true rose fragrance?
 
You’re after the holy grail my friend. If I could make that I’d never leave the house. Every otto or even absolute that I have proportionately captures one or more aspects of a particular rose. Spicy, honeyed, citrus, green. Like you said. There are a lot of support materials for rose. Geranium, Jasmine, black pepper, pink pepper etc. I might try wearing a dot of a specific otto and seeing how that one oil unfolds and then mess around with supporting and modifying it. Pushing aspects you like, and filling in what’s missing. You might even fill in the background with rose absolute. You might also try and get your hands on a well aged otto. I recently got one and it blows me away. Because it’s aged a lot of the top notes have mellowed. When it fully opens on my skin there’s a moment where I feel like I’m slowly descending into a tunnel lined with pink blooms.

I’m extremely rose greedy. It makes me crazy in a way nothing else does. Even the best Otto’s I own only get full rose spectrum for a finite time period. I think of it as such a magical material partially because it’s so fleeting. And like true rose it’s shifting based on type, region, how far the bloom has opened, what I ate, what else I’ve smelled that day. I’m on the hunt myself for a rose perfume that even if it doesn’t do it all, I can at least layer it with rose oils.

There are real perfumers on here who can tell you a whole lot more than I can. I do feel like there’s not one final boss rose blend though. We can capture the magic for a fleeting time. And hopefully get it to circle back a couple of times.
 
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you can (almost) get that smell by combining rose otto, absolute, and geranium. It'll get you about 80% there. And with a little support from white florals, citruses, spices youll get the best result.
 
You’re after the holy grail my friend. If I could make that I’d never leave the house. Every otto or even absolute that I have proportionately captures one or more aspects of a particular rose. Spicy, honeyed, citrus, green. Like you said. There are a lot of support materials for rose. Geranium, Jasmine, black pepper, pink pepper etc. I might try wearing a dot of a specific otto and seeing how that one oil unfolds and then mess around with supporting and modifying it. Pushing aspects you like, and filling in what’s missing. You might even fill in the background with rose absolute. You might also try and get your hands on a well aged otto. I recently got one and it blows me away. Because it’s aged a lot of the top notes have mellowed. When it fully opens on my skin there’s a moment where I feel like I’m slowly descending into a tunnel lined with pink blooms.

I’m extremely rose greedy. It makes me crazy in a way nothing else does. Even the best Otto’s I own only get full rose spectrum for a finite time period. I think of it as such a magical material partially because it’s so fleeting. And like true rose it’s shifting based on type, region, how far the bloom has opened, what I ate, what else I’ve smelled that day. I’m on the hunt myself for a rose perfume that even if it doesn’t do it all, I can at least layer it with rose oils.

There are real perfumers on here who can tell you a whole lot more than I can. I do feel like there’s not one final boss rose blend though. We can capture the magic for a fleeting time. And hopefully get it to circle back a couple of times.

this very much describes my experience as well.

Trying to Recreate the True Scent of a Fresh Rose – Advice Needed
I've been experimenting with exceptionally high-quality, genuine rose oils, including Bulgarian Rosa damascena Otto, Bulgarian White Rose (Rosa alba) Otto, and Turkish Isparta Rosa damascena Otto.

My challenge is that none of these oils smell anywhere near an actual fresh rose flower on their own. I get green, citrusy and sometimes slightly medicinal notes rather than that beautiful, sweet, natural rose-petal aroma.

To my nose, they don't even capture 30% of the scent of an actual fresh rose, if that makes sense. Perhaps this is simply how all rose ottos smell, regardless of their origin or quality?

I normally blend them with pure Mysore sandalwood, but the results remain much the same.

I have absolutely no doubts about the quality or authenticity of these oils. They are superb. I'm simply trying to understand how to work with them properly and haven't managed to achieve the results I'm looking for.

What could I do with these particular oils to achieve the exact scent, or something very close to, a freshly opened natural rose? Is there a particular blending technique or natural ingredient that could help bring out that beautiful, true rose fragrance?
This question seems simple but is actually pretty profound, there are entire text books' worth of discussion that could be derived from this seemingly simple inquiry and I have started and deleted a couple of replies…

One thought: distillation is extracting the cooked plant so you should expect a cooked flower smell not fresh/raw; solvent extraction avoids the extreme heat and can sometimes produce a slightly more life-like bouquet but the ratio of the constituents get altered by the process of extraction so it can never smell literally the same as the flower.

Another thought: try diluting your oils in alcohol to 5% and then smelling the aroma on a piece of blotter paper that's been sprayed with or dipped in that diluted solution. A rose is nothing like a bottle of essential oil and even less like a patch of skin that's had a drop of pure Rose oil smeared on it… the flower has just traces of the oil secreted by the flower diffusing gently into the air along with water vapor and if you dilute things way down and experience them gently and dispersed on a surface and in air you will discover more complexity and life like beauty hiding there.

Definitely should try the solvent extracted oils if you get a chance: concretes, absolutes, CO2 extraction etc but all of those also fail to smell literally like the fresh flower. each of them smells like they capture some other facet, but not the whole thing, like @Shiningrobes stated so eloquently
 
Trying to Recreate the True Scent of a Fresh Rose – Advice Needed

I've been experimenting with exceptionally high-quality, genuine rose oils, including Bulgarian Rosa damascena Otto, Bulgarian White Rose (Rosa alba) Otto, and Turkish Isparta Rosa damascena Otto.

My challenge is that none of these oils smell anywhere near an actual fresh rose flower on their own. I get green, citrusy and sometimes slightly medicinal notes rather than that beautiful, sweet, natural rose-petal aroma.

To my nose, they don't even capture 30% of the scent of an actual fresh rose, if that makes sense. Perhaps this is simply how all rose ottos smell, regardless of their origin or quality?

I normally blend them with pure Mysore sandalwood, but the results remain much the same.

I have absolutely no doubts about the quality or authenticity of these oils. They are superb. I'm simply trying to understand how to work with them properly and haven't managed to achieve the results I'm looking for.

What could I do with these particular oils to achieve the exact scent, or something very close to, a freshly opened natural rose? Is there a particular blending technique or natural ingredient that could help bring out that beautiful, true rose fragrance?
The particular nature of the water-steam distillation of roses - that produces 'otto' essences has a couple of critical issues that changes the composition of the resulting essences - even when done at the utmost presicion and care; and overcoming these issues is what your quest seeks to achieve:
1. is the high temperature of the process - which inevitably changes the most subtle and ethereal molecules of the flower's volatile essence - even though roses endure this steamy assault with relative dignity - unlike many other flowers that simply get cooked and completely ruined;
2. Second issue is the water itself and its power of solubility - in the process of distillation, certain key materils are simply get dissolved in the steam that gets condensed in what becomes a hydrolat - Rose water, full of lovely fragrance - leeched out of the final essence;
the best example of the lost key chemical is Phenethyl alcohol (β-phenylethanol) - easily water-soluble molecule that is responsible for both the 'honey' note and the major contribution to the 'fresh petality' suave impression of the real blooming flower. Steam distillation removes this aroma-chemical from the final essence almost completely - from over 78% in the live composition of certain damascenas' scent - to the measly 1-3% in all the hydrodistilled ottos; and on the way shifting up the percentages of citronellol and geraniol - all resulting in the essence that does not smell like the real flower anymore.

The Solution is to complement your Rose work with the Absolutes (cold solvent extracts) - which process does not involve neither heat nor water, and keeps the precentages intact - both of the Phenylethanol and of the ratios of other key components. Important to know, that the quality of the Absolutes made major leaps up in my lifetime - due to the modern technological improvements - they are much more pure and close to nature than even 40 years ago (while hydrodistillation remans the same for the last 800 years - limited by the built-in specifications of the process itself).
While not 100% identical to the freshly opened living flower (since the scent-changing fermentation begins instantly at the very moment the flower is picked), the Absolutes provide much higher fidelity to the real Rose - objectively and beyond any folkloristic sentiments and prejudices - which are very common still.
There is a wide variety of different Absolutes for you to consider, for the recreation of the freshly blooming Rose bush' impression -
of Damascenas from Turkey, Morocco, France, India, Bulgaria;
of Centifolias from Morocco and France;
a very interesting, intriguing variety is the Absolute of Bourbon Rose (bourboniana or indica hybrid) - coming mostly from India, but on rare occasions - also from France and Italy - with overall darker, more wild and sensual impression - with musty-musky undertones that increase the depth and the tenacity of the scent.
Another captivating and rare Absolute comes from the climbing Chinese variety (Rosa cymosa) - carrying intensely gourmand, spicy-fiery edge, making its opening smell like wild Carnation- very tenacious; some people who love gourmand-spicy vibe go crazy with this Absolute.
Another rarer variety of Absolutes is the original Apothecary Rose - Rosa gallica, that comes anywhere in-between Moldova, Ukraine, Caucasus region (Georgia and Azerbaijan), Italy, even Bulgaria - there as Gallica's subspecies 'Raduga'); Gallica's absolutes are lush, creamy-velvety, sometimes sweeter, sometimes liquor-like, sometimes delicately-fruity - I love them for their 'vintage elegance' luxurious feel.
Another very rare (but surprisingly the cheapest of them all) Absolute with its own unique character is 'Rose & Leaf' Absolute from the Bulgarian damascena - this essence is made from spent flowers, leaves and stalks, and it posesses the feel of the whole plant - with herbal, earthy, humid vibe evoking the ambience of the Rose Garden in its entirety - absolutely wonderful to add dimensions of evocative realism to any Rose composition.
Lastly, the most recent addition to the Rose palette is also the most true-to-nature:
CO2 (Super-Critical-Fluid) Select Extracts - I've encountered so far only Southern-French 'Rose-de-Mai' centifolia CO2 - very rare, expensive - and utterly glorious in its natural veracity.
 
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