Strange and elaborate Kyara scam account

[Mr.P]

it's funny how I mapped all of this out and predicted it back in my kyara thread from 2024

the oud biz as a whole is very much dependent on unsubstantiated and untestable superlatives, so every term associated with high value gets shredded by the marketing machinery.

A list of meaningless oud words thanks to this phenomenon:

organic
wild
pure
cambodian
kinam
kyara
all natural
incense grade
etc etc

 

[TheOudDood]

the oud biz as a whole is very much dependent on unsubstantiated and untestable superlatives, so every term associated with high value gets shredded by the marketing machinery.

A list of meaningless oud words thanks to this phenomenon:

organic
wild
pure
cambodian
kinam
kyara
all natural
incense grade
etc etc

Either words have definitions or they don't.

If they don't, nobody would respond to them. Nobody would pay extra for "wild," "kyara," or "pure," and nobody would be upset when they ordered a pizza and got a bag of lettuce. It's all subjective, right? Maybe the lettuce is a pizza on its own journey.

But people do respond to those words. They pay for them, and they get upset when they don't get what the words promised. That's the whole reason sellers use them, and the whole reason faking them works.

Counterfeit money works the same way. Fakes don't make the dollar meaningless, they borrow its meaning. Marketing feeds on definitions. It doesn't erase them.

So the definitions exist. Sellers lie about meeting them, and buyers can't tell because they never learned the definitions, often because their community told them there weren't any.

"These words are all marketing BS" sounds savvy, but it's usually just "I don't know what they mean, so nobody does," or resentment toward the sellers who do. It's the same move people make when they hear about genuinely wild top-end kyara and call it elitist gatekeeping, overhyped, or no better than their baseline wood. It's a cop-out dressed up as cynicism.

You can't have it both ways. You don't get to say "it's all subjective, nobody's right or wrong" when someone holds you to a standard, then demand the standard when you get ripped off.

Switching sides depending on which one benefits you isn't open-mindedness. It's low integrity. And this thread is exactly where it leads: people paying for kyara, getting lettuce, and calling it a learning journey.

 

[Mr.P]

sides?

What puzzles me here is I don't see the controversy / disagreement. I may have missed a critical post

100% agree words have meanings and of course those meanings can get distorted when language is used carelessly or deliberately manipulated for marketing, and it's definitely too bad.

Do you see this as a forum that encourages people not to learn about the accurate and traditional definitions of terms or something? Or did somebody here say something to that effect?

 

[roflwaffle]

What puzzles me here is I don't see the controversy / disagreement. I may have missed a critical post

I don't think you're missing anything, I too am baffled by the weird vague strawman arguments here. But he hasn't really given any literal examples, just talked about lettuce pizzas or whatever.

His thesis, I believe is, yell at anyone new and scare them off, gatekeep the heck out of it while you're at it.

From my standpoint, OP, a new member, asked a question about a sus vendor, another new member said they bought it, showed pics, and was told it was fake by many members and because of this post's existence, now that member here is likely to get their money back, whereas if it was never discussed, would have continued to be ripped off. It seems like a win/win, and the opposite outcome that ouddood is proposing. /shrug

 

[TheOudDood]

I don't think you're missing anything, I too am baffled by the weird vague strawman arguments here. But he hasn't really given any literal examples, just talked about lettuce pizzas or whatever.

His thesis, I believe is, yell at anyone new and scare them off, gatekeep the heck out of it while you're at it.

From my standpoint, OP, a new member, asked a question about a sus vendor, another new member said they bought it, showed pics, and was told it was fake by many members and because of this post's existence, now that member here is likely to get their money back, whereas if it was never discussed, would have continued to be ripped off. It seems like a win/win, and the opposite outcome that ouddood is proposing. /shrug

You're strawmanning what I said into the dumbest, least accurate version of it, projecting emotion onto it, and missing the point.

I never said yell at new people or gatekeep anyone. I said definitions matter, and that a community that answers definitions with "it's all subjective" ends up with members who can't spot fakes.

Everything I posted was a response to specific things said in this thread: "learning does not need someone to be wrong and/or right," "we all have more to learn and there's nothing wrong with that," and "smell some oud, relax." Those are the examples. They're right above you.

For the longer pattern, see my 2024 thread:
https://www.ouddict.com/threads/project-chinese-kinam-2024.7525/

That thread and every other one I've started on this subject spun off into the same pointless noise, which is why I gave up on them.

Yes, this thread caught the fake, and that's good.

My point isn't about this one thread. It's that when definitions get posted and the answer is "it's all subjective" or "it's a mystery," newcomers never learn what real looks like.

Then they buy fakes and post that they smell great, like here.

Or you get long time people on this forum saying there’s no difference between kyara and agarwood or that cultivated kynam is just as good as wild or that simply that no one knows what kynam is. Or that kynam is “just marketing hype.”

And my overview of cultivated vs. wild qinan, which got zero replies:
https://www.ouddict.com/threads/nice-overview-of-ck-vs-wild.10591/

Not gatekeeping. The opposite. Definitions are how a new person avoids getting ripped off.

If it's still unclear, it's a reading comprehension and skill issue, not a lack of examples or definitions.

 

[Ouddict]

Can we please keep the discussion civil.

Also, I will be taking a bit more notice of the threads on here and no offence to people posting on here, but a lot of us who have 20+ years experience in this area are quite tired of reading posts about agarwood from people who have no filter and think they know what they are talking about. Kyara is VERY expensive wood and if you do not have years of experience with it, it is best to say you don't know instead of speculating. We may start to seriously regulate any threads on certain topics such as Kyara (it is a very specialised area) and things like musk (strictly regulated) or we may just put a large caveat for people to take such threads with a large pinch of salt and get proper articles on here from real experts that will be marked out as such. Incorrect information and baseless speculation can mislead newcomers and cause people to lose a lot of money on items that are not the real deal.

 

[Shiningrobes]

Can we please keep the discussion civil.

Also, I will be taking a bit more notice of the threads on here and no offence to people posting on here, but a lot of us who have 20+ years experience in this area are quite tired of reading posts about agarwood from people who have no filter and think they know what they are talking about. Kyara is VERY expensive wood and if you do not have years of experience with it, it is best to say you don't know instead of speculating. We may start to seriously regulate any threads on certain topics such as Kyara (it is a very specialised area) and things like musk (strictly regulated) or we may just put a large caveat for people to take such threads with a large pinch of salt and get proper articles on here from real experts that will be marked out as such. Incorrect information and baseless speculation can mislead newcomers and cause people to lose a lot of money on items that are not the real deal.

Authoritative articles would be great. There a wealth of info in the archives but not always easy to find and mixed in with craziness sometimes.

 

[p$yl35h]

Authoritative articles would be great. There a wealth of info in the archives but not always easy to find and mixed in with craziness sometimes.

+1 to pinned threads/posts and known experts tags (unlike engagement driven tags like mine lol).

 

[Mr.P]

I would love to see this place living up to its potential and becoming a repository of information organized in a way that a newcomer would have a good chance of avoiding misleading information etc.

Right now I feel like this place is a bit of a mixed bag and you could well end up with some real misunderstandings of things due to just the fact that there are a lot of good natured people still learning, a very high turnover so people often move on once they learn what they're looking for, newcomers are all(?) labeled as "admin", and there is a relative deficit of expert commentary compared to earlier days when there were multiple involved moderators and more active participation by vendors (think of Olefaktory's heydey)

Sticky threads, peer reviewed glossaries and FAQs, common misconceptions and myths, etc. would help to get a signal through the noise.

 

[Mr.P]

I would love to see this place living up to its potential and becoming a repository of information organized in a way that a newcomer would have a good chance of avoiding misleading information etc.

Right now I feel like this place is a bit of a mixed bag and you could well end up with some real misunderstandings of things due to just the fact that there are a lot of good natured people still learning, a very high turnover so people often move on once they learn what they're looking for, newcomers are all(?) labeled as "admin", and there is a relative deficit of expert commentary compared to earlier days when there were multiple involved moderators and more active participation by vendors (think of Olefaktory's heydey)

Sticky threads, peer reviewed glossaries and FAQs, common misconceptions and myths, etc. would help to get a signal through the noise.

One suggestion that's a little bit less fun is eliminating the custom novelty subtitles or whatever you call them and having them be assigned based on seniority or professional experience or whatever the community thinks would help…

Newcomers would be labeled as newcomers, administrators would be labeled as administrators, people with specific expertise maybe identified by that subtitle as well.

It's less fun but it moves away from a sort of fan site where everything is just a positive review by a pool of people without anything to distinguish them from one another especially from the perspective of a newcomer

 

[Olfactory Nomad]

One suggestion that's a little bit less fun is eliminating the custom novelty subtitles or whatever you call them and having them be assigned based on seniority or professional experience or whatever the community thinks would help…

Newcomers would be labeled as newcomers, administrators would be labeled as administrators, people with specific expertise maybe identified by that subtitle as well.

It's less fun but it moves away from a sort of fan site where everything is just a positive review by a pool of people without anything to distinguish them from one another especially from the perspective of a newcomer

I'd be down with that for sure. Still keen on the "Sticky" threads as well.

 

[TheOudDood]

Fully support this, and it’s what I’ve been trying to say in this thread.

For context: I’ve spent years and tens of thousands of dollars learning this material, and I source my kyara and incense directly from collectors in China and Taiwan, material that, as far as I know, isn’t available through anyone posting here or anywhere else I’ve seen online. On top being deep in the TCM and internal arts world for most of my life.

I’ve tried to do exactly what’s being proposed here, more than once:

https://www.ouddict.com/threads/project-chinese-kinam-2024.7525/

https://www.ouddict.com/threads/nice-overview-of-ck-vs-wild.10591/

What came back was either zero engagement or some version of:

• “you’re gatekeeping”
• “that’s elitist”
• “there’s no difference between kyara and my agarwood”
• “it’s marketing hype”
• “no one really knows what kyara is”
• “it’s all subjective”

And it usually wasn’t newcomers saying this. Newcomers asking questions is how it should work. It was mostly long-term members. Don’t blame the newbies for being newbies when the biggest source of noise is often people who’ve been here for years.

That’s a big part of why I stopped sharing here, and eventually stopped visiting. Posting detailed comparisons only to have them dissolved into “it’s all subjective” gets old fast. This thread was more of the same.

Worth noting too: in this thread my points were misrepresented more than once and nobody said anything, but pointing that out is what got treated as the tone problem.

That dynamic is part of why people with real experience stop posting. It is a frustrating waste of time.

That’s the real obstacle to the articles and glossaries everyone’s asking for.

Expertise can’t help newcomers if established members treat any clear standard as arrogance or treat direct communication as mean or harsh.

That was my original point that I made in this thread multiple times. You can't have it both ways. Or you can have your cake and eat it too, so long as it's not cake, and no one knows what cake is.

 

[Mr.P]

I can't comment on what anybody else said other than myself on your threads in the past. Don't know what to tell you about that. I like the idea though of focusing on ways that this place could be better in a positive and constructive sense and you're the first person to bring this up spontaneously other than myself in quite a while I think so I'm trying to focus on the positive here… A person with a vision for a place where the quality of information is treated as sacredly / respectfully as the quality woods and oils themselves.

I checked out that text that you quoted with the wild versus cultivated comparison, that's a good one, matches my own experience. I missed that one when you originally posted it but I remember your earlier thread about kinam and that it was not very productive so I share your thoughts on that.

 

[Shiningrobes]

I can't comment on what anybody else said other than myself on your threads in the past. Don't know what to tell you about that. I like the idea though of focusing on ways that this place could be better in a positive and constructive sense and you're the first person to bring this up spontaneously other than myself in quite a while I think so I'm trying to focus on the positive here… A person with a vision for a place where the quality of information is treated as sacredly / respectfully as the quality woods and oils themselves.

I checked out that text that you quoted with the wild versus cultivated comparison, that's a good one, matches my own experience. I missed that one when you originally posted it but I remember your earlier thread about kinam and that it was not very productive so I share your thoughts on that.

i just started a new thread to try and corral these types of discussions in one place. Yes to all of the above. I’m eager for knowledge. I think some stuff might have to come behind the scenes from members. Others from admin. Even more from a combo of the two. The derailments and snark are exhausting and hopefully knowledge and wisdom can prevail. Let’s build our own city. As someone who constantly edits and re-edits my posts for clarity I appreciate how hard it can be to make a point clearly so I would hope that people who want to participate here would give each other a little grace when it comes to communicating.

 

[Mr.P]

i just started a new thread to try and corral these types of discussions in one place. Yes to all of the above. I’m eager for knowledge. I think some stuff might have to come behind the scenes from members. Others from admin. Even more from a combo of the two. The derailments and snark are exhausting and hopefully knowledge and wisdom can prevail. Let’s build our own city. As someone who constantly edits and re-edits my posts for clarity I appreciate how hard it can be to make a point clearly so I would hope that people who want to participate here would give each other a little grace when it comes to communicating.

well said

 

[ctruth]

Update: I will most likely NOT get my money back…

I reported every single purchase from this guy to paypal. Some of them are still in progress, but a few were already declined. I guess they dont even care, or simply cannot distinguish between the real and the fake, which is fair I guess. I presented screenshot from real kyara vs. the fake kyara from this vendor, I explained why his kyara is most likely fake… this just sucks man.

Anybody got an idea what I can do? I thought about reporting this scam to authorities, but I dont know how far I would come with my evidence.

Lesson learned.

 

[Shiningrobes]

Update: I will most likely NOT get my money back…

I reported every single purchase from this guy to paypal. Some of them are still in progress, but a few were already declined. I guess they dont even care, or simply cannot distinguish between the real and the fake, which is fair I guess. I presented screenshot from real kyara vs. the fake kyara from this vendor, I explained why his kyara is most likely fake… this just sucks man.

Anybody got an idea what I can do? I thought about reporting this scam to authorities, but I dont know how far I would come with my evidence.

Lesson learned.

I can’t hit the like on this but … man. So sorry.

 

[ctruth]

I can’t hit the like on this but … man. So sorry.

Thank you my brother…

 

[Olfactory Nomad]

I don't know what you can do to expose him as a fake seller. Maybe not much or otherwise just try to bring public attention to his scamming. Regarding your purchases, if Papal won't help then you'll just have to wear it unfortunately. As I said earlier, most of us have had a similar experience when starting out. It's unfortunate but the agarwood game can be a sketchy one. Particularly when large sums of money can be made and information is scarce which is where this thread went. It's up to you to decide what you want to do with the wood itself. Even fake woods or poor quality have their uses. You've spent the money, you may as well do something with it.

 

[hutou]

While it's impossible to verify before purchasing, I've never seen a seller operate at a loss. I know many wild kynam collectors, and no matter how knowledgeable they are, every wild kynam they acquire is purchased at a high price. Never fantasize about finding a bargain, especially regarding raw materials. Prices in the primary market are actually very transparent, without a doubt.