Oud Distillation

Al Shareef Oudh said:
@all vendors + consumers

Apologies for the delayed contribution.

Everyone is making valid points from their perspective and behind the lenses that we sit ultimately will impact how and what we see. We all do not see the same things, or see them the same way.

The questions posed by the OP makes a lot of sense if one was to place themselves into @Rasoul Salehi shoes.

I think the discussion should be beyond just yield, but also efficiency and openness as a community to different approaches, possibilities and ideas. I am personally very pleased to see Rasoul reach this point in his journey where he is questioning what is now either in his collection or about to form part of his collection of oudhs and I don't think he should stop asking or demand answers to those WTH is going on here scenarios he is facing...

As a perfumer-distiller that is what we encourage, a informed consumer is liberated from the marketing mist and empowered by their knowledge to hopefully make better choices and I have to agree with @Alkhadra and @Taha, consumers are responsible for their own imaginations. A vendors videos or pictures those are just snaps in time, possibly a glimpse of what the vendor wishes to share, from a part of a match bigger picture, and those images requires a lot of processing and filtering before you can allow it to form part of the inventory of information in your mind.

Informed consumers are also beneficial for the overall direction the market takes. The positive changes we see today in the online oudh scene isn't just a result of more vendors on the scene, but rather the demand and push by consumers for better prices, more variety, better quality accompanied with more fact based information and knowledge. As the drive from consumers continues (to whichever direction consumers wish to take) the oudh scene will head that way.

Back to the point about efficiency, here is a couple of things we do that will change how you might want to crunch your numbers once you go for those calculators. I can't speak for other vendors but as perfumer-distillers who pretty much run end to end operations there is more to the scenario than raw material divided by mls of oil, well at least for us anyway, and there is no reason why this cant be the case for others;

The oil isn't the only product from a distillation, especially a high end distillation. The spent matter is still very valuable post distillation. Whilst some of the oils come out of the wood during distillation, there is a lot that doesn't. On top of the remaining oils, most the resin is also intact. The spent matter can then go through further extraction either by solvent, microwave, c02 or other methods. The products from these extraction also has value. I recall earlier in this discussion someone mentioning rose. If we could take that example in Bulgaria and Turkey for example after the rose is hydro-distilled and the otto is collected. The spent matter is then solvent extracted into what is known as 'concrete' due to the solid nature of the product. These are stored in drums and when orders are received the drums are chemically processed into an oil. These oils resemble rose more than the otto both in colour and smell. The point is, it is a second product from the same raw material over which the initial cost of material can be distributed.

Secondly, it is no secret that hydro-steam distillation are at the bottom of the ladder when it comes to efficiency. There are other methods that are much more efficient and extract more of the oil from the woods. We did some work with the University of Western Australia in the mid 2000's using microwave to extract oils from sandalwood. The results were fantastic and the yield was upt0 6 times greater than hydro-steam. Is our oudh community open to such ideas, new ways? Lam'ah the great success and amazing oil that it is, would not have been possible had we not employed extraction methods together with the distillation method.

When we broaden the discussion to these other possibilities we can find answers to some of the questions the OP raised, but there are others that these examples wont explain and for those consumers should continue asking...I agree with @powdernose we can't allow shyness or fear of disrupting the status quo to hinder the sincere inquiry into these things.
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This is very interesting. It's first time I learn about using microwave for extraction of essential oils.
I just found some links (e.g. https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1757-899X/128/1/012009/pdf , https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/159177155.pdf) to educate myself in this subject.
Very interesting. Thank you for sharing!
 
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Just gonna try and quickly get to a few points, especially a couple that seem to be directed at me.

F4R1d0uX said:
Hi @powdernose you are right, and more than a fake master, i consider myself a baby blurping mother milk, I'm good with this.
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Dear F4R1d0uX, I didn't address your skills at any point.

Ashfaque said:
@powdernose re the expiration, it is implied my post.
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I know 🙂
I was reiterating, because some suggest that no expiration date should exist on certain oud secrets.

Ashfaque said:
Re reading something with no guidance: It would put me off too.
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:thumbsup: Just checking.

PEARL said:
Took 15 minutes, tops, and that was with me handing him the tools; ~$400 out the door. I paid twice, once for the part product and once for the service, needless to say that was the last time I let anyone repair my moto.
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I'm sorry, but it sounds like you paid four times.
And that you were ripped off in front of your very eyes, and did nothing to stop it.
Perhaps I've missed the point, but that seems a bad example to me.

PEARL said:
How did it happen? Easy, I was under the impression that it took some magical, secret, proprietary, 'artisinal' skill and knowledge that I deluded myself into believing I didn't have.
It's really no different with agarwood oil; from distilling, being able to differentiate a quality oil from a bad one, being able to grade wood, and the resin thing.
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I think it is different if only due to access to information.
If you'd looked up how to change the water pump, you'd probably be flooded with information on how to do it.
Free information.
I don't feel there's that access to information in the oud world, and most times you pay for your own stumbling education.

PEARL said:
Around the same time, she was telling another shopper how great the drink was and all of it's benefits, all organic, and certainly better than that of any competitor;

She uncaps and takes a big swallow, her face nearly turned as green as the drink as she exclaimed, "that is absolutely horrible"; she recapped the drink and dashed it in the rubbish bin.

Don't get me wrong, she was an informed consumer and I'm far from saying that one should not be informed, but you get the message.
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It is an amusing anecdote 🙂
But what it shows me is that you value only one parameter of the equation, taste.
And also that you don't know that lady at all, because she would never throw it in the rubbish 😛

RisingPhoenix said:
Let's ask a painfully simple question in order to streamline...
What specific information do folks want included in the listings?
Bearing in mind that all answers may not be known, or able to be disclosed - what would folks like to know that isn't already being disclosed?
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I'm glad you're asking, and I'd love for other people to speak up and ask for what they'd like.
I think I've addressed what I think are the basics, but like Rasoul, I'd probably never stop asking questions 🙂

RisingPhoenix said:
I would also like to point out...I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for myself - nearly all the details you mentioned so far are usually included in my listings. Jungle / country, year / time of year of distillation, species, quality of wood, etc.
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I was speaking to the status quo!

Apologies, I've not visited your listings in quite some time. I can only applaud you for what you do include.
But since you ask, I'll take the first thing I read just now:
Sai Yud
"from 40-year old, resin-dense plantation trees. "
What does that mean?

RisingPhoenix said:
I can never keep straight folks handle names and their actual names, so it's hard for me to connect if you bought any oils from me. Haha But I ask another simple question - do details really sell an oil? If they do...I imagine you would own all my distillations?
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Cute :Roflmao:
I believe details can help sell an oil, yes. Or cultivate trust in a vendor.
Sorry, I'm not one of your customers.


RisingPhoenix said:
The issue of providing every iota of information isn't about the consummers (although there seem to be an awful lot of consumers trying their hand at being vendors lately) - it's about putting information out in a place where tons of other people around the world are distilling or trying to distill, make Attars / macerations / products, etc.

These are public forums and an aweful lot of folks read them. It is in no business' best interest to broadcast what sets them apart from the masses.
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In truth I'd not thought of that.
But I don't think it is as tragic as you make it out to be.
 
tyson said:
You can extract oil from agarwood resin , ill make a video later and show how its done , thre are hydro distilling the resin and dry distilling. Using alcohol to extra agarwood resin we can then reduce that down to only resin , give it a curing process to remove any traces of alcohol and then distill it , if done wih a dry still method we heat the resin and collect the first fraction this bubbles off in the dry still and when it goes flat the resin no more bubbles on low heat the process is stoped, this makes an oil of absolute purity, its the opposite of yeild it alchemy, lead to gold . the reduction and refinment of the very essence and soul of the agarwood. i would not even attempt this with lower grades of wood though you would need double super grade or higher . in a video ill try and show the 3 states of agar resin as i have come to learn it
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I applaud the experimentation :clapping:
I'd love to see more of your process and even smell the end result.
Over the years, the question has popped up once or twice, if anyone has ever attempted destructive distillation, no doubt in attempt to capture the aroma of the oud burn, but till now no one has ever replied.
It is interesting to read your tweaked approach to it.
Define low heat?

I'd just make a parenthesis however and say that this goes beyond the realm of an essential oil.
Oud is not just aroma, and we should not forget those that use it spiritually, or therapeutically, or those who have sensitive skin.
If anybody starts tweaking the process beyond the natural and the norm it is their duty to fully disclose such methods.
Once we enter pyrolysis, God knows what byproducts are produced. Would you put it on your skin?
I wouldn't; not without chemical testing to prove it free of toxins and allergens.
 
powdernose said:
If anybody starts tweaking the process beyond the natural and the norm it is their duty to fully disclose such methods.
Once we enter pyrolysis, God knows what byproducts are produced. Would you put it on your skin?
I wouldn't; not without chemical testing to prove it free of toxins and allergens.
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Do you know for sure how the oud you use was produced?And if not I assume from your statement that you have all your ouds chemically tested.
 
powdernose said:
Good point. No I don't. And my pockets don't run that deep to test everything.
But if I found out that my oud was produced in some unstated fashion, that would terminate my relationship with any vendor doing so.
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Ok, so have you ever had any oud chemically tested? And how ever would you find out if it was produced in an "unstated fashion"?
 
powdernose said:
Am I being drilled?
What is your point?
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Apologies if you feel you are being drilled, I was just curious from your comment 'I wouldn't; not without chemical testing to prove it free of toxins and allergens." It seems odd that if you knew the process had been tweaked beyond the natural that you would have it tested but if the process is unknown then you wouldn't. Also curious if any members have had their oud tested. Is ignorance bliss or do we trust?
 
I am a beginner in the oud world so I ask you to forgive my ignorance in advance...I did not even read the whole thread only the last pages of the discussion... What I know is that if I was in any business where I would have to explain every action and every method to the consumer of my product and to explain how the product came to be... then I would quit. Better that then to be questioned over every step of doing what you love, chefs doing that seems crazy to me, what next should they all have a written certificate from an inspector that the salad was grown in a nice ph neutral earth, that there are no toxins in the tomatoes, that the manure did indeed come from horses who had eaten only certifiably fresh grass...Describing procedures is the work of the critic not of the artisan. I do not want my beloved artisans to become critics, I want them to focus on what they love to do. If they feel like sharing that is perfect but I would never feel entitled to know how they do what they do just because I buy from them. Generalities satisfy me and I do not need to hear the details if I can see that there is no discrepancy between my perception of the product and its general description.
 
Grega said:
I would never feel entitled to know how they do what they do just because I buy from them.
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On a lighter note, dearest Grega:
I would never feel entitled not to know how my beloved distillers do what they do just because I buy from them. Isn't it the other side of the same coin?

The thread addressed a query, no more. And the query was a curiosity to know the way I am curious to know your take about some newly released oil. Of course, here distillers are to shed light on the topic the way they shed light on the quality of their products and bla bla bla, if they are willing to, and mostly they do so.

Grega said:
I do not want my beloved artisans to become critics, I want them to focus on what they love to do.
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I assure you nobody wants them to, nor does anyone want to criticize them as well. Even if we want to, they won't lose their concentration and focus. Of course, beloveds they are. And, I am afraid and I suppose, we, maybe, their beloveds as well, or may we be so.

A minor question was floated. It wasn't to derail Elon Musk's from the track and mar the projectsof zillions and zillions.

Some said it is a secret, and some shared what they had learnt. It was not about secrets, rather it was and is about sharing. If no queries and no sharing, then the forum is forced to be a corner meeting (Oud/ Attar of tyhe Day/ Night). And it is not needed as well as our beloved distiller vendors have penned down a lot of legal sized pages on websites. The rest is left always clashing olfactory vs olfactory.

But now I have realized if at all something is to be requested other than praising oils, PM option is for that purpose.

Peace and Cheers!
 
Grega said:
I am a beginner in the oud world so I ask you to forgive my ignorance in advance...I did not even read the whole thread only the last pages of the discussion... What I know is that if I was in any business where I would have to explain every action and every method to the consumer of my product and to explain how the product came to be... then I would quit. Better that then to be questioned over every step of doing what you love, chefs doing that seems crazy to me, what next should they all have a written certificate from an inspector that the salad was grown in a nice ph neutral earth, that there are no toxins in the tomatoes, that the manure did indeed come from horses who had eaten only certifiably fresh grass...Describing procedures is the work of the critic not of the artisan. I do not want my beloved artisans to become critics, I want them to focus on what they love to do. If they feel like sharing that is perfect but I would never feel entitled to know how they do what they do just because I buy from them. Generalities satisfy me and I do not need to hear the details if I can see that there is no discrepancy between my perception of the product and its general description.
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Totally. At this extreme level of questioning, no doubt. Who would want it? Some of the questions posed here, one’s I stated, are valuable not because of technique or this or that but for unlearning what we have come to know. Ie darker looking agarwood is not necessarily better than light colour one. Oil rich wood could smell more pleasent than a sinking grade nugget. There is such a thing as red resin. Is wicked. And in oils:well, we are trying to learn more. But need to unlearn bunch’s stuff too.

This is our artisan distiller residents chance to set the record straight in anything the like to share with us. Things they see is misunderstood by most of us but they bite their lips and font correct us. Afterall customer service is a touchy area of business.
 
Rasoul Salehi said:
Totally. At this extreme level of questioning, no doubt. Who would want it? Some of the questions posed here, one’s I stated, are valuable not because of technique or this or that but for unlearning what we have come to know. Ie darker looking agarwood is not necessarily better than light colour one. Oil rich wood could smell more pleasent than a sinking grade nugget. There is such a thing as red resin. Is wicked. And in oils:well, we are trying to learn more. But need to unlearn bunch’s stuff too.

This is our artisan distiller residents chance to set the record straight in anything the like to share with us. Things they see is misunderstood by most of us but they bite their lips and font correct us. Afterall customer service is a touchy area of business.
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Dearest Rasoul, your questions seemed interesting to me and in no way am I against such questions or against such lively discussions, they are part of this forum just as much as "oud of the day" is 😉. The only thing is that from the tone of some posts I felt like the vendors are being interrogated and not merely asked things out of curiosity. But "tone" can be misread on the internet as well as artisans not wanting to share on every question. No need to hold anything against anyone for such things.

Regarding questions I have one of my own. Is it possible that certain oud oils that are cheaper can smell better to many people than some pricier ones? I am thinking of green tea which I enjoy very much. I prefer the cheaper senchas mostly to the pricier gyokuros. Gyokuro has less bitterness and is more sweet than a regular sencha yet I prefer the regular as I enjoy more a well rounded, more harmonised taste. Yet gyokuro is pricier precisely because it is harder to achieve a specific result that the tea grower wants - here it is to get rid of those bitter aspects. Thus there is more work to be done as the tea needs to be shaded when growing. Thus a higher price. Then there are other types of green tea for which only the youngest leaves are picked and due to their rarity the price is higher, but still they are not as good for me as certain cheaper teas unless I am in the mood for that specific effect.

Is the same true for oud oils where the higher manufacturing costs don't necessarily mean higher quality but more that a specific effect was desired from the distillation? And that rarity is not indicative of higher quality? I understand however that price is also somewhat indicative of the quality as below a certain point you can be sure that the quality has to suffer.
 
Rai Munir said:
On a lighter note, dearest Grega:
I would never feel entitled not to know how my beloved distillers do what they do just because I buy from them. Isn't it the other side of the same coin?

The thread addressed a query, no more. And the query was a curiosity to know the way I am curious to know your take about some newly released oil. Of course, here distillers are to shed light on the topic the way they shed light on the quality of their products and bla bla bla, if they are willing to, and mostly they do so.


I assure you nobody wants them to, nor does anyone want to criticize them as well. Even if we want to, they won't lose their concentration and focus. Of course, beloveds they are. And, I am afraid and I suppose, we, maybe, their beloveds as well, or may we be so.

A minor question was floated. It wasn't to derail Elon Musk's from the track and mar the projectsof zillions and zillions.

Some said it is a secret, and some shared what they had learnt. It was not about secrets, rather it was and is about sharing. If no queries and no sharing, then the forum is forced to be a corner meeting (Oud/ Attar of tyhe Day/ Night). And it is not needed as well as our beloved distiller vendors have penned down a lot of legal sized pages on websites. The rest is left always clashing olfactory vs olfactory.

But now I have realized if at all something is to be requested other than praising oils, PM option is for that purpose.

Peace and Cheers!
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Dearest Rai
I find the thread to be extremely interesting and plan to read through the whole of it when I have more time.

And questions are wonderful for every artist and artisan when born out of love not out of a sense of entitlement. That was my point not that they should not be asked.
 
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Grega said:
and in no way am I against such questions or against such lively discussions, they are part of this forum just as much as "oud of the day" is 😉
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:Cry:🙁:handok:😉
Grega said:
That was my point not that they should not be asked.
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It is all about sharing the way O/AOTD/N is:Roflmao:. Otherwise, none is bound to answer. Freedom of choice .

I have come to know that, in Europe, if any product causes some harm and some precautionary measure had not been mentioned by the brand, the brand can be sued😛. Just heard. You can SHARE the reality because you live there. Though I am not entitled to ask, out of brotherhood I am making a request. :praying:
 
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