Oud Distillation

[Rename]

Firstly thank you for taking time to share your knowledge and explain things.
I appreciate that.

I just think you misunderstood me or i think i didn't explain it properly.
My point was not that the cheesy (fermentation smell) should not occur in oudh or that that is unnatural.
I completely agree with you that the original smells/flavors of a product change due to fermentation, that is a logical consequence.
But that wasn't what I meant.
I was referring to @Al Shareef Oudh point that the use of white wood creates the cheesy smell during the fermentation process.
I have there fore explained some things, the conclusion is this:
When white wood is used extensively (larger volume of carbohydrate present), active fermentation occurs, unlike when less or no white wood is used.
This led me to the question:
Is the cheesy smell that arises the result of a lot of white wood being used? And therefore an indicator of lower quality oudh?

Perhaps the terms have caused some confusion, but by lower quality I do not mean that the oil is of low quality, but the white wood that is used. White wood is less valuable than oudh wood rich in oil.
Perhaps you understand me better now, I should have explained it a little better, so I understand your conclusion.

Appreciate the followup clarification 🙏🏼

If I understand the argument correctly - darker wood wouldn’t smell fermented if it wasn’t white?

I’m not sure the premise that dark wood doesn’t produce fermentation notes would be correct.

Look at really vintage oils. Oils where they would toss in black wood. They still may or may not have fermented it, and to varying points, at that.

Fermentation notes, again, I think comes down more to what was done to the wood before, during, and after distillation - and isn’t necessarily tied to the color, oil, or resin density of the wood.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding something somewhere - but I think the premise doesn’t align with the realities of distilling. Dark woods can be fermented. White woods can be unfermented and still distilled.

Many yellow Asians (as opposed to brown Asians) will even say that oud oils, no matter how clean and unfermented they are - may still smell like pee / poo. I think an element of it is intrinsic to the wood / infection / reaction. Even the woods can smell animalic or fecal. Agallocha, especially. Partly why they aren’t so popular in Asia, even as raw woods for heating. Their noses are different from noses of other ethnicities. Even their eyes will pick up parts of the color spectrum the rest of us are usually blind to. Their tongues will pick up flavors missed by other tongues. I’m digressing, though …

Suffice to say - no, I don’t think the premise is correct. I think the difference between 999g of wood with 1g of oil to yield fermenting and 990g of wood with 10g of oil to yield fermenting is negligible. Both woods will ferment.

 

[Al Shareef Oudh]

Ok, I think this is very interesting and it raises another question for me.

I am going to explain this a bit and then ask the question:

What I have achieved with fermentation is that carbohydrates in particular are needed so that the bacteria can actively continue the fermentation process.
What has also reached me is that microorganisms can produce fats, but as far as I know no original fermentation takes place with only an oil, simply because there are no carbohydrates present in the oils.

If a good quality oudh wood is used(with no white wood), there is relatively less active fermentation, simply because there is less carbohydrate available for the living ferments (because there are more oils than fresh wood).
If, on the other hand, there is relatively more white wood present (fresh/healthy wood), then the ferments have a lot of carbohydrates available.
I suspect that is what causes the cheesy smell (if there are no other factors).

My question from this is:
Can we assume that a cheesy oudh oil is an indicator of a low quality oudh that has been used, simply because white wood (much carbohydrates) is needed to get this scent?

You ask an interesting question my brother.

When I refer to distillers here, it is in the context of those who ferment and have substandard.

One of the methods some of these guys use is that they do not dry the wood, for those your theory would apply more. Basically they harvest the wood and it gets soaked and then into the cooking pot. In that case there would be more fresh wood that can ferment.

Others will dry the wood out in the sun, then soak it, then in the pot.

The worst off notes are from the wood that is not dried and soaked.

funnily enough, white wood not soaked and cooked, has a fairly ethereal smell, much like a top heavy oudh, with less complexity.

To answer your question, i do not believe that there is an exclusive one to one relationship between cheese smell and wood quality. It can be an indicator, but not a flag. It's also one of those things that different noses might define it differently.

There is also the distinction that many oudhs, will have clear barn notes, degrees of it, good quality wood, not soaked, cared for properly and cooked well. It is just the nature of the oil in the wood.

 

[Ibn Abdillah]

Appreciate the followup clarification 🙏🏼

If I understand the argument correctly - darker wood wouldn’t smell fermented if it wasn’t white?

I’m not sure the premise that dark wood doesn’t produce fermentation notes would be correct.

Look at really vintage oils. Oils where they would toss in black wood. They still may or may not have fermented it, and to varying points, at that.

Fermentation notes, again, I think comes down more to what was done to the wood before, during, and after distillation - and isn’t necessarily tied to the color, oil, or resin density of the wood.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding something somewhere - but I think the premise doesn’t align with the realities of distilling. Dark woods can be fermented. White woods can be unfermented and still distilled.

Many yellow Asians (as opposed to brown Asians) will even say that oud oils, no matter how clean and unfermented they are - may still smell like pee / poo. I think an element of it is intrinsic to the wood / infection / reaction. Even the woods can smell animalic or fecal. Agallocha, especially. Partly why they aren’t so popular in Asia, even as raw woods for heating. Their noses are different from noses of other ethnicities. Even their eyes will pick up parts of the color spectrum the rest of us are usually blind to. Their tongues will pick up flavors missed by other tongues. I’m digressing, though …

Suffice to say - no, I don’t think the premise is correct. I think the difference between 999g of wood with 1g of oil to yield fermenting and 990g of wood with 10g of oil to yield fermenting is negligible. Both woods will ferment.

Thank you for your explanation, sincere appreciation that you take the time for it in your way and in your style (I don't mean this in a degenerate way, I liked seeing that everyone has their own way).
Which brings me to the point that my way is still not completely clear, and I blame that on myself (English is not my native language, sometimes I have to run things through the translation machine).

I think we will understand each other better with your first question:
"If I understand the argument correctly - darker wood wouldn't smell fermented if it wasn't white?"

No, that's absolutely not what I meant. Dark wood can also be fermented, but the ferments will be less active than if there is (a lot of) fresh wood (white wood) present, so with a less active fermentation you will also have different odor nuances.
I have deliberately given examples so that it would be clarified for those who are less aware of how fermentation works.
If you understand this point, namely that fresh wood/white wood has more carbohydrates, then you may also understand my question better.
The fermentation activity is higher with fresh wood, so I wondered if that is what creates these cheesy notes.
If the answer is "yes", then the question is whether this can be used as an indicator to say that a particular distillation used a lot of white wood.

I understand that several factors can play a role in the development of odors, I thought I had not ruled that out in my previous text, which is why this was asked as a question and not as a final conclusion.
I hope this will make it more clear for you.

 

[Ibn Abdillah]

You ask an interesting question my brother.

When I refer to distillers here, it is in the context of those who ferment and have substandard.

One of the methods some of these guys use is that they do not dry the wood, for those your theory would apply more. Basically they harvest the wood and it gets soaked and then into the cooking pot. In that case there would be more fresh wood that can ferment.

Others will dry the wood out in the sun, then soak it, then in the pot.

The worst off notes are from the wood that is not dried and soaked.

funnily enough, white wood not soaked and cooked, has a fairly ethereal smell, much like a top heavy oudh, with less complexity.

To answer your question, i do not believe that there is an exclusive one to one relationship between cheese smell and wood quality. It can be an indicator, but not a flag. It's also one of those things that different noses might define it differently.

There is also the distinction that many oudhs, will have clear barn notes, degrees of it, good quality wood, not soaked, cared for properly and cooked well. It is just the nature of the oil in the wood.

Dzjazzak-Allahoe gairan dear brother for your clear answer, that was what i liked to know.

 

[Rename]

Thank you for your explanation, sincere appreciation that you take the time for it in your way and in your style (I don't mean this in a degenerate way, I liked seeing that everyone has their own way).
Which brings me to the point that my way is still not completely clear, and I blame that on myself (English is not my native language, sometimes I have to run things through the translation machine).

I think we will understand each other better with your first question:
"If I understand the argument correctly - darker wood wouldn't smell fermented if it wasn't white?"

No, that's absolutely not what I meant. Dark wood can also be fermented, but the ferments will be less active than if there is (a lot of) fresh wood (white wood) present, so with a less active fermentation you will also have different odor nuances.
I have deliberately given examples so that it would be clarified for those who are less aware of how fermentation works.
If you understand this point, namely that fresh wood/white wood has more carbohydrates, then you may also understand my question better.
The fermentation activity is higher with fresh wood, so I wondered if that is what creates these cheesy notes.
If the answer is "yes", then the question is whether this can be used as an indicator to say that a particular distillation used a lot of white wood.

I understand that several factors can play a role in the development of odors, I thought I had not ruled that out in my previous text, which is why this was asked as a question and not as a final conclusion.
I hope this will make it more clear for you.

Gotcha. A little more clarity there. Totally get the second language challenge, as well.

As @Al Shareef Oudh mentioned - fresh / wet wood ferments different from dry wood. I think this has more to do with the water / fluid / phloem still in the wood.

Similar thing in firewood. Fresh wood doesn’t burn the same way properly dried wood burns. The smoke won’t smell as clean, either.

Fluid in the tree is like Blood in an animal. In this case, it is evaporated off, rather than drained like when an animal is processed. It’s why game meat tends to
Taste so strongly. It’s not generally bled and processed immediately.

In Japanese culinary arts, during cooking - there are Aku’s - what we would call scum in English that must be skimmed off. Most cooks don’t do this, but it’s essential in Japanese cooking. Yields a much cleaner tasting food.

All these are examples why fresh, wet woods don’t ferment the same as dried woods.

Going back to my previous example - low grade woods yield roughly 0.5-1mL of oil per kg.

High grades will yield 10-12mL / kg.

You’re saying white woods have more fiber to ferment. I’m saying they essentially only have 10-12g more wood per kg than high grade woods. Understand what I’m saying with that math?

That’s 999g of wood vs 988-990g. That’s why I’m saying I think it’s negligible in determining. That 10g difference in wood per kg I think is not going to make a difference, which is why the fermentation is not an indication of grade / quality of wood used.

I think the type and length of ferment, equipment, distillation style, technique and skill, etc have more of a bearing. Don’t forget the subjective appreciation of fermentation. Some people think yogurt is rotten milk, after all 😆 Beauty in the eye of the beholder.

Lastly - there’s quite a difference between fermenting for up to 15 days vs fermenting up to 3-6 months. There’s a difference between a pickle and rot. But this isn’t about wood quality. It’s about technique.

There’s even a difference in the type of water and the type of vessel used (plastic / ceramic / metal / etc). Again - technique.

Considering that pickles tend to taste better when you use better quality ingredients - I’d actually argue the inverse. The better the wood - the more the microbes have to work with and the better the ferment would be. Just like in making any kind of pickle, bread, alcohol, coffee, tea, vanilla - etc. All fermented foods. So the better the wood, the better the ferment in that regard.

That’s why I mentioned Maillard Reactions, earlier. Distilling is cooking, after all. My entire journey into medicine and ultimately into aromatics started in the kitchen. So that’s how I think about all this.

 

[Rename]

Here - better lighting and the full exert :

 

[Ibn Abdillah]

Again thank you for taking the time to explain.
I think we are understanding each in broad terms, but that the previous terms have caused some confusion
For convenience I've taken some quotes and left out the rest of the text if you don't mind.

You’re saying white woods have more fiber to ferment. I’m saying they essentially only have 10-12g more wood per kg than high grade woods. Understand what I’m saying with that math?

No i never stated that white woods have more "fiber" to ferment, i said that white wood have more carbohydrates, there is a big difference between fibers and carbohydrates.

Lastly - there’s quite a difference between fermenting for up to 15 days vs fermenting up to 3-6 months. There’s a difference between a pickle and rot. But this isn’t about wood quality. It’s about technique.

There’s even a difference in the type of water and the type of vessel used (plastic / ceramic / metal / etc). Again - technique.

I agree with this point.

Considering that pickles tend to taste better when you use better quality ingredients - I’d actually argue the inverse. The better the wood - the more the microbes have to work with and the better the ferment would be. Just like in making any kind of pickle, bread, alcohol, coffee, tea, vanilla - etc. All fermented foods. So the better the wood, the better the ferment in that regard.

In general yes, but as you stated before, there are more variables that play a role in the end result.

That’s why I mentioned Maillard Reactions, earlier. Distilling is cooking, after all. My entire journey into medicine and ultimately into aromatics started in the kitchen. So that’s how I think about all this.

Yes that where also my thaugts about distilling (and parfum making), i see alot of similarities with cooking.
you confirmed my thoughts.
Nice to read that we have a lot in common, i also like cooking and I have done quite a bit of fermenting at home (kefir, sauerkraut, cured meat, sourdough bread, kvass etc.). In addition, I have been studying nutrition and health for many years. Funny to read that we are following the same route.

 

[Maunamoku]

Thank you for your explanation, sincere appreciation that you take the time for it in your way and in your style (I don't mean this in a degenerate way, I liked seeing that everyone has their own way).
Which brings me to the point that my way is still not completely clear, and I blame that on myself (English is not my native language, sometimes I have to run things through the translation machine).

I think we will understand each other better with your first question:
"If I understand the argument correctly - darker wood wouldn't smell fermented if it wasn't white?"

No, that's absolutely not what I meant. Dark wood can also be fermented, but the ferments will be less active than if there is (a lot of) fresh wood (white wood) present, so with a less active fermentation you will also have different odor nuances.
I have deliberately given examples so that it would be clarified for those who are less aware of how fermentation works.
If you understand this point, namely that fresh wood/white wood has more carbohydrates, then you may also understand my question better.
The fermentation activity is higher with fresh wood, so I wondered if that is what creates these cheesy notes.
If the answer is "yes", then the question is whether this can be used as an indicator to say that a particular distillation used a lot of white wood.

I understand that several factors can play a role in the development of odors, I thought I had not ruled that out in my previous text, which is why this was asked as a question and not as a final conclusion.
I hope this will make it more clear for you.

Hello brother, thank you for asking these questions. The more questions we ask as a community and explore these ideas, the stronger the community is. I would like to add to the questions, and ask broadly, how do these extra carbohydrates and/or presence of fresh wood materials influence the aging of oils? Perhaps some of our senior distillers can answer this question, I imagine there are many nuances.

 

[Al Shareef Oudh]

Hello brother, thank you for asking these questions. The more questions we ask as a community and explore these ideas, the stronger the community is. I would like to add to the questions, and ask broadly, how do these extra carbohydrates and/or presence of fresh wood materials influence the aging of oils? Perhaps some of our senior distillers can answer this question, I imagine there are many nuances.

White wood oil doesn't age well. It has this dead insect note that @Mr.P talks about in Thai oudhs.

It also is important to note that, top heavy oils also don't age well.

 

[Mr.P]

White wood oil doesn't age well. It has this dead insect note that @Mr.P talks about in Thai oudhs.

It also is important to note that, top heavy oils also don't age well.

You are the only person I’ve met who acknowledges the dead bug note! Was thinking I had some mutated olfactory receptor genes or something.

I’ve only smelled it in cultivated oils which seems right in line with the effects of white wood.

At one time there was a lot of buoya oil (not sure in spelling?) which was said to be extracted from white wood only. It was a yellowish paste, semi solid, odd smell. It’s been decades since I have smelled or seen anyone selling this. Bolisat Lao PDR used to sell very rich funky lao oud and the buoya from the white wood.

 

[Ibn Abdillah]

Hello brother, thank you for asking these questions. The more questions we ask as a community and explore these ideas, the stronger the community is. I would like to add to the questions, and ask broadly, how do these extra carbohydrates and/or presence of fresh wood materials influence the aging of oils? Perhaps some of our senior distillers can answer this question, I imagine there are many nuances.

Yes i feel the same,this way we can get a broader view of things, even an incorrect or incomplete approach(from me) can teach us something new.
Thank you for highlighting this point.

To answer your question:
Aging of the oil is one thing and fermentation is another thing. So in my point of view these are to different things.

Fermentation takes place in the phase when carbohydrates are still present, in my opinion this is before the distillation process begins. After the distillation process you only have oil left. The ferments (provided the oil has not been heated and no other factors have led to their killing) remain in the oil, but then serve more to preserve the oil, as there is no longer any food (carbohydrates) for the ferments to continue there fermentation process.

 

[Clyff6ix]

You are the only person I’ve met who acknowledges the dead bug note! Was thinking I had some mutated olfactory receptor genes or something.

I’ve only smelled it in cultivated oils which seems right in line with the effects of white wood.

At one time there was a lot of buoya oil (not sure in spelling?) which was said to be extracted from white wood only. It was a yellowish paste, semi solid, odd smell. It’s been decades since I have smelled or seen anyone selling this. Bolisat Lao PDR used to sell very rich funky lao oud and the buoya from the white wood.

Now I've got to go smell some dead insects for reference.

 

[Al Shareef Oudh]

You are the only person I’ve met who acknowledges the dead bug note! Was thinking I had some mutated olfactory receptor genes or something.

I’ve only smelled it in cultivated oils which seems right in line with the effects of white wood.

At one time there was a lot of buoya oil (not sure in spelling?) which was said to be extracted from white wood only. It was a yellowish paste, semi solid, odd smell. It’s been decades since I have smelled or seen anyone selling this. Bolisat Lao PDR used to sell very rich funky lao oud and the buoya from the white wood.

Buya Oudh or crocodile agarwood is actually a different species of the agarwood species. It produces Oudh but of lesser quantity and lower quality. That wood also ranges from lower quality to sinking. Sometimes certain places call that white paste that is produced from white Oudh as buya, it isn't a correct reference.

There are probably many things you can smell that others can't, it's a result of an acute sense of smell.

 

[Mr.P]

there were two types of buoya, one from “crocodile Gaharu” and one distilled from the white wood leftover when separating resinated wood. I say this with confidence because I corresponded for some time with the owner of bolisat and they explained the process and sent samples.

(Just noticed your white paste comment - that is what it was an mislabeled I guess)

I wonder if my sense is acute or just skewed. Been training my nose since the 80’s so it’s possible I have tuned into things that aren’t obvious.

 

[Rename]

there were two types of buoya, one from “crocodile Gaharu” and one distilled from the white wood leftover when separating resinated wood. I say this with confidence because I corresponded for some time with the owner of bolisat and they explained the process and sent samples.

There Buoya - and there’s Boya

Various spellings depending on who you’re taking to.

One is white Agarwood oil

The other is Aetoxylon

That might be the confusion. Totally get what you’re saying, though.

I ran a batch of Aetoxylon a few years back. Smells like a log cabin - excellent stuff! But not Oud.

 

[AlHind Oud]

I had the opportunity to experience Boya. It is basiclly the solid waxy substance from the white wood. Usually the distillation of shavings at high temperature results in it's formation and I heard many people using it in perfumery as well.

 

[Mr.P]

It is weird smelling stuff - not a smell I would want to experience- did not smell like oud at all. I can see how it might offer some unique contrasting notes in a perfume however.

 

[Sproaty]

Gotcha. A little more clarity there. Totally get the second language challenge, as well.

As @Al Shareef Oudh mentioned - fresh / wet wood ferments different from dry wood. I think this has more to do with the water / fluid / phloem still in the wood.

Similar thing in firewood. Fresh wood doesn’t burn the same way properly dried wood burns. The smoke won’t smell as clean, either.

Fluid in the tree is like Blood in an animal. In this case, it is evaporated off, rather than drained like when an animal is processed. It’s why game meat tends to
Taste so strongly. It’s not generally bled and processed immediately.

In Japanese culinary arts, during cooking - there are Aku’s - what we would call scum in English that must be skimmed off. Most cooks don’t do this, but it’s essential in Japanese cooking. Yields a much cleaner tasting food.

All these are examples why fresh, wet woods don’t ferment the same as dried woods.

Going back to my previous example - low grade woods yield roughly 0.5-1mL of oil per kg.

High grades will yield 10-12mL / kg.

You’re saying white woods have more fiber to ferment. I’m saying they essentially only have 10-12g more wood per kg than high grade woods. Understand what I’m saying with that math?

That’s 999g of wood vs 988-990g. That’s why I’m saying I think it’s negligible in determining. That 10g difference in wood per kg I think is not going to make a difference, which is why the fermentation is not an indication of grade / quality of wood used.

I think the type and length of ferment, equipment, distillation style, technique and skill, etc have more of a bearing. Don’t forget the subjective appreciation of fermentation. Some people think yogurt is rotten milk, after all 😆 Beauty in the eye of the beholder.

Lastly - there’s quite a difference between fermenting for up to 15 days vs fermenting up to 3-6 months. There’s a difference between a pickle and rot. But this isn’t about wood quality. It’s about technique.

There’s even a difference in the type of water and the type of vessel used (plastic / ceramic / metal / etc). Again - technique.

Considering that pickles tend to taste better when you use better quality ingredients - I’d actually argue the inverse. The better the wood - the more the microbes have to work with and the better the ferment would be. Just like in making any kind of pickle, bread, alcohol, coffee, tea, vanilla - etc. All fermented foods. So the better the wood, the better the ferment in that regard.

That’s why I mentioned Maillard Reactions, earlier. Distilling is cooking, after all. My entire journey into medicine and ultimately into aromatics started in the kitchen. So that’s how I think about all this.

salt, fire acid and fat?

 

[Rename]

salt, fire acid and fat?

Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat 😉

Great book. Great Netflix Series. Go watch !

 

[Mr.P]

White wood oil doesn't age well. It has this dead insect note that @Mr.P talks about in Thai oudhs.

It also is important to note that, top heavy oils also don't age well.

This caught my eye. I have some old bio Thais feel oud distilled - same wood, three different methods. One was a no-soak distillation, the other had maybe a month of soaking but I two different water types if I recall.

All were similar on one level but each was recognizably different from the others. The one that was not soaked, had a bit of a menthol note that reminded me of some Borneo oils, and is very pleasant.

These i think you might classify as relatively top heavy, and while they have aged well in the sense of slightly improving and softening of the top notes, they are basically unchanged and I would have thought they would settle and reveal some more oudy depths but it doesn’t seem to be going that way.

Have you seen some actually go bad, or just not acquire depth with age?