Oud Distillation

[F4R1d0uX]

I see, so as a customer when I read about the oils profile on the sellers web page or any blog should I take that info as a grain of salt ?

I think it goes with cost+charges/yield+ability to sell ...

Gyrinops 0 was made from incense grade, I get the double the yield someone could expect it was a big batch compared on my average ones : the price is very cheap for what it is (and people liked it).

Guldasta was made from lower incense grade than the Gyrinops 0 from rare wild Upper Assam wood (I paid the wood far far more expensive than what I paid for the Gyrinops 0) yield was good price was the double of the Gyrinops 0 and people liked it ...

Did that helped ?




Envoyé de mon MI 8 en utilisant Tapatalk

 

[Bombay]

I think it goes with cost+charges/yield+ability to sell ...

Gyrinops 0 was made from incense grade, I get the double the yield someone could expect it was a big batch compared on my average ones : the price is very cheap for what it is (and people liked it).

Guldasta was made from lower incense grade than the Gyrinops 0 from rare wild Upper Assam wood (I paid the wood far far more expensive than what I paid for the Gyrinops 0) yield was good price was the double of the Gyrinops 0 and people liked it ...

Did that helped ?




Envoyé de mon MI 8 en utilisant Tapatalk

1) That was good info sir, so would the same concept be applied for oils from wood shavings as well ? and
2)When we hear wood shavings or wood dust , is that obtained from grinding the wood before distillation or its what falls from the tree while collecting the wood .

 

[F4R1d0uX]

1) That was good info sir, so would the same concept be applied for oils from wood shavings as well ? and
2)When we hear wood shavings or wood dust , is that obtained from grinding the wood before distillation or its what falls from the tree while collecting the wood .

Shavings are left overs from cleaning wood chips/chunks : removing the whiter parts from it.

So what kind of shavings are you getting ? From what grade of wood ?

I already saw kilos of sinking wastes wood these are not obligatory white wood and it doesn't sell at the same price at all.

Also dust is the size of the wood which goes into the pot for distilation and isn't about the wood quality.

I don't think it's the right topic to talk about it either create a topic and ask a mod to put these last posts into it or if you already bought oud you can also speak about it with the seller, we provide this service to our customers 🙂.

 

[Bombay]

Shavings are left overs from cleaning wood chips/chunks : removing the whiter parts from it.

So what kind of shavings are you getting ? From what grade of wood ?

I already saw kilos of sinking wastes wood these are not obligatory white wood and it doesn't sell at the same price at all.

Also dust is the size of the wood which goes into the pot for distilation and isn't about the wood quality.

I don't think it's the right topic to talk about it either create a topic and ask a mod to put these last posts into it or if you already bought oud you can also speak about it with the seller, we provide this service to our customers 🙂.

Greatfull for the knowledge you shared sir, will ask a mod to see if this convo can be transferred under a new thread. 🙂

 

[F4R1d0uX]

Greatfull for the knowledge you shared sir, will ask a mod to see if this convo can be transferred under a new thread. 🙂

You're the most welcome, feel free to DM.

 

[DubOudh]

Was looking for this thread from yesterday. Couldn't find where it was but eventually have.
Full of great information this one.....👍

 

[Ibn Abdillah]

Also

Also lactic acids isn't dangerous for the oil too, someone had tried this up too. But I heard it's not prevailing in yield.

Bismillaahi ar-Rahmani ar-Rahim,

My humble thoughts brother...
I ferment food at home, an what i notice is that the rosemary that i put in my ferments become more powerful after a week or two.

I believe that this has to do with the lactic acids, which break the cellular barrier of the rosemary and thus ensure that the volatile oils are released.
So it's logic that the same happens when you put oud wood in lactic acids.

But if we speak in terms of yield, then I wonder if it gives a better yield.
On the other hand, I think that fermentation (by lactic acids) makes the oil more pronounced and gives different nuances to the olfactory notes, compared to when there is no fermentation.

Wallahoe a'lem

 

[Al Shareef Oudh]

Continuing from @Mr.P question on the other thread whether some distillers in Laos and vietname utilising old soak water repeatedly, is it by chance or deliberate?

It is deliberately, the question is why, and the answer is two fold. Some do so because of the difficulty to refill the water tanks.

Others do it because if the presence of fungi and possibly yeast/bacteria that make white wood smell cheesey.

 

[Mr.P]

I have experienced the cheesy type of lao oud…. You aren’t kidding.

Do you see a circumstance where this would improve the aroma or maybe soften harsh top notes or is it all about yield and not aroma?

 

[Ibn Abdillah]

Continuing from @Mr.P question on the other thread whether some distillers in Laos and vietname utilising old soak water repeatedly, is it by chance or deliberate?

It is deliberately, the question is why, and the answer is two fold. Some do so because of the difficulty to refill the water tanks.

Others do it because if the presence of fungi and possibly yeast/bacteria that make white wood smell cheesey.

Dzjazzak-Allahoe gairan for sharing this knowledge.

Do i understand it right?
Some make the wood deliberately cheesy? If yes? Is it some signature of that region, market demand (for this cheesy smell) or are there other reasons?

Or is it because of more yield that they do this?

 

[EJayB]

When I sterile soak , I do not pasteurize . Pasteurization has mass value in mycology over sterilization but it in this case I am sterilizing. I don’t heat the wood for 5 days.
The oil quality is not degraded in the process. The yield is bigger , the fermentation is non existent and zero cheese or off notes .
People have different opinions of what should affect the oil scent . In my world I don’t want anything but the scent of the AGARWOOD . Not any bacteria or microbial breakdown. Others like those things and that’s great , it’s just not my style. I don’t like cheese or funk in my oud . Everyone has different preferences. Everyone wants to have people believe they have the one or only method but I have mine and it’s what I have found to work best with what I’m trying to achieve. That might not be what everyone else wants but there are lots of distillers using lots of techniques to make lots of different peoples happy . To each his own and for their own reasons . I pray all distillers reach their goal and achieve the outcome they desire and find many happy customers 🙏🏼

 

[Al Shareef Oudh]

I have experienced the cheesy type of lao oud…. You aren’t kidding.

Do you see a circumstance where this would improve the aroma or maybe soften harsh top notes or is it all about yield and not aroma?

We have to go back a bit in time to understand why they do this, and it is something hard for younger folk to believe, but the reason they do it is actually not yield related. The best yield is when wood is soaked 12-15 days, after that the yield drops.

The reason they follow these questionable methods is that many of these distillers learnt from a chain of teachers who eventually go back to India. Now i want to be clear, it isnt the Indian method that they are following, far from it, it is the old Indian oudh smell that they are trying to replicate. If anyone has smelt old Indian wood, the wood itself distilled without any soaking, has a leathery, strong wood note. That is what they are trying to replicate, and they have found that fermentation gives some resemblance, however if you smell the two side by side, old indian oudh and these fermented laos and Vietnamese oudhs, they are distinctly different, but in the same barnyard grouping.

 

[Al Shareef Oudh]

Dzjazzak-Allahoe gairan for sharing this knowledge.

Do i understand it right?
Some make the wood deliberately cheesy? If yes? Is it some signature of that region, market demand (for this cheesy smell) or are there other reasons?

Or is it because of more yield that they do this?

it is trying to replicate hindi oudh of yesteryears, and that it what was famous in the middle east, the hindi oudh. First the cambodi tried to replicate the hindi smell etc, unfortunately in the process it has just messed up the market. The good news is, people are starting to move away from the long term fermented soak as they are realizing that it reduces yield, and it is a much longer process from the wood to oil process. Some places are fermenting for upto 9 months.

 

[mesOUD]

We have to go back a bit in time to understand why they do this, and it is something hard for younger folk to believe, but the reason they do it is actually not yield related. The best yield is when wood is soaked 12-15 days, after that the yield drops.

The reason they follow these questionable methods is that many of these distillers learnt from a chain of teachers who eventually go back to India. Now i want to be clear, it isnt the Indian method that they are following, far from it, it is the old Indian oudh smell that they are trying to replicate. If anyone has smelt old Indian wood, the wood itself distilled without any soaking, has a leathery, strong wood note. That is what they are trying to replicate, and they have found that fermentation gives some resemblance, however if you smell the two side by side, old indian oudh and these fermented laos and Vietnamese oudhs, they are distinctly different, but in the same barnyard grouping.

Yes i totaly agree
Pick poşnt of increasing yield is 14 days and between 7-14 days there is no big gap
The point it starts is replicating old indian ouds

 

[Ibn Abdillah]

Others do it because if the presence of fungi and possibly yeast/bacteria that make white wood smell cheesey.

Ok, I think this is very interesting and it raises another question for me.

I am going to explain this a bit and then ask the question:

What I have achieved with fermentation is that carbohydrates in particular are needed so that the bacteria can actively continue the fermentation process.
What has also reached me is that microorganisms can produce fats, but as far as I know no original fermentation takes place with only an oil, simply because there are no carbohydrates present in the oils.

If a good quality oudh wood is used(with no white wood), there is relatively less active fermentation, simply because there is less carbohydrate available for the living ferments (because there are more oils than fresh wood).
If, on the other hand, there is relatively more white wood present (fresh/healthy wood), then the ferments have a lot of carbohydrates available.
I suspect that is what causes the cheesy smell (if there are no other factors).

My question from this is:
Can we assume that a cheesy oudh oil is an indicator of a low quality oudh that has been used, simply because white wood (much carbohydrates) is needed to get this scent?

 

[Rename]

Ok, I think this is very interesting and it raises another question for me.

I am going to explain this a bit and then ask the question:

What I have achieved with fermentation is that carbohydrates in particular are needed so that the bacteria can actively continue the fermentation process.
What has also reached me is that microorganisms can produce fats, but as far as I know no original fermentation takes place with only an oil, simply because there are no carbohydrates present in the oils.

If high-grade oudh wood is used during distillation, there is relatively less active fermentation, simply because there is less carbohydrate available for the living ferments (because there are more oils than fresh wood).
If, on the other hand, there is relatively more white wood present (fresh/healthy wood), then the ferments have a lot of carbohydrates available.
I suspect that is what causes the cheesy smell (if there are no other factors).

My question from this is:
Can we assume that a cheesy oudh is an indicator of a low grade oudh that has been used, simply because white wood (much carbohydrates) is needed to get this scent?

I don’t think so.

Wood yields will have more to do with the OIL content of the wood.

Woods have both OIL and RESIN.

Usually a higher oil content wood will be more aromatic at room temp. The best woods usually have both oil AND resin.

At some point you’ll hit a point of Diminishing Returns - so the key will be in using grades high enough that you’re not simply wasting the wood.

This is why shavings will give such good oil. High oil content right up against that resin formation.

Low oil woods will yield 0.5-1mL / kg of wood

High oil woods can be as high as 12mL / kg. Sometimes even higher.

So we are talking a difference of 10g or so out of a kg in terms of oil in the wood, itself, which is expressed during distillation. Fermentation is there to break up the wood fibers which helps to release the oils in the wood. If it can’t escape the fiber - you can’t capture it in the receiver. That’s how fermentation “helps” the yields.

The alchemy of the scent is in maillard reactions during fermentation, same as in cooking. Both creating and releasing flavor that would not otherwise be present.

I always find it funny that people will eat bread (not the true flavor of wheat), enjoy vanilla or coffee (both fermented and not their “true” flavors) - but will then say oud oils with some fermentation aren’t “true” agarwood flavors. 🧐 By this definition - heating or burning it is also not a “true” flavor. Only the raw wood would be the true flavor.

Your premise about fermentation / low grade I would think would lead to lower grades of wood yielding higher yields of oil as a result, since there was more carbohydrate for fermentation.

Rather - I think both oil yield and skill and equipment (which can impact yields) would be a better indicator of the grades of wood used.

Oh - don’t forget distillation parameters (like temp and pressure), the set up, and type of distillation and equipment materials used.

At the end of the day - liking the scent of the oil is what matters, and that has both subjective and objective parameters.

Don’t forget the affect of aging and storage. Also factors in how something smells.

Maybe we all should drink a beer and relax (also not the true flavors of wheat and hops 🤫)

😉💪🏼🎉

 

[Mr.P]

When I sterile soak , I do not pasteurize . Pasteurization has mass value in mycology over sterilization but it in this case I am sterilizing. I don’t heat the wood for 5 days.
The oil quality is not degraded in the process. The yield is bigger , the fermentation is non existent and zero cheese or off notes .
People have different opinions of what should affect the oil scent . In my world I don’t want anything but the scent of the AGARWOOD . Not any bacteria or microbial breakdown. Others like those things and that’s great , it’s just not my style. I don’t like cheese or funk in my oud . Everyone has different preferences. Everyone wants to have people believe they have the one or only method but I have mine and it’s what I have found to work best with what I’m trying to achieve. That might not be what everyone else wants but there are lots of distillers using lots of techniques to make lots of different peoples happy . To each his own and for their own reasons . I pray all distillers reach their goal and achieve the outcome they desire and find many happy customers 🙏🏼

You are clearly doing something right! Your cultivated kinam oil had by far the most complex, floral, multilayered top note I have smelled in a ck oil, and your Thai oils i sniffed were utterly appealing.

 

[Mr.P]

We have to go back a bit in time to understand why they do this, and it is something hard for younger folk to believe, but the reason they do it is actually not yield related. The best yield is when wood is soaked 12-15 days, after that the yield drops.

The reason they follow these questionable methods is that many of these distillers learnt from a chain of teachers who eventually go back to India. Now i want to be clear, it isnt the Indian method that they are following, far from it, it is the old Indian oudh smell that they are trying to replicate. If anyone has smelt old Indian wood, the wood itself distilled without any soaking, has a leathery, strong wood note. That is what they are trying to replicate, and they have found that fermentation gives some resemblance, however if you smell the two side by side, old indian oudh and these fermented laos and Vietnamese oudhs, they are distinctly different, but in the same barnyard grouping.

I think I have recently tuned into the leathery / dull woody note you refer to - seems to pop up in some Cambodian crassnas.

it is trying to replicate hindi oudh of yesteryears, and that it what was famous in the middle east, the hindi oudh. First the cambodi tried to replicate the hindi smell etc, unfortunately in the process it has just messed up the market. The good news is, people are starting to move away from the long term fermented soak as they are realizing that it reduces yield, and it is a much longer process from the wood to oil process. Some places are fermenting for upto 9 months.

I know Rksons was selling some 6 month soaked stuff- kind of disgusting to think about the smell of wood that has been under water in anaerobic condition (I assume) for that amount of time. The waste products of fermenting bacteria could possibly make up a significant fraction of the oil I think…

 

[EJayB]

I think I have recently tuned into the leathery / dull woody note you refer to - seems to pop up in some Cambodian crassnas.

I know Rksons was selling some 6 month soaked stuff- kind of disgusting to think about the smell of wood that has been under water in anaerobic condition (I assume) for that amount of time. The waste products of fermenting bacteria could possibly make up a significant fraction of the oil I think…

I tried RK sons oils, they were not good.
All funk and cheese with little oud
I gave them away recently to a perfumer friend after sitting on my shelf for a few years . Extremely unappealing oils that you would not want to wear in public

 

[Ibn Abdillah]

I don’t think so.

Wood yields will have more to do with the OIL content of the wood.

Woods have both OIL and RESIN.

Usually a higher oil content wood will be more aromatic at room temp. The best woods usually have both oil AND resin.

At some point you’ll hit a point of Diminishing Returns - so the key will be in using grades high enough that you’re not simply wasting the wood.

This is why shavings will give such good oil. High oil content right up against that resin formation.

Low oil woods will yield 0.5-1mL / kg of wood

High oil woods can be as high as 12mL / kg. Sometimes even higher.

So we are talking a difference of 10g or so out of a kg in terms of oil in the wood, itself, which is expressed during distillation. Fermentation is there to break up the wood fibers which helps to release the oils in the wood. If it can’t escape the fiber - you can’t capture it in the receiver. That’s how fermentation “helps” the yields.

The alchemy of the scent is in maillard reactions during fermentation, same as in cooking. Both creating and releasing flavor that would not otherwise be present.

I always find it funny that people will eat bread (not the true flavor of wheat), enjoy vanilla or coffee (both fermented and not their “true” flavors) - but will then say oud oils with some fermentation aren’t “true” agarwood flavors. 🧐 By this definition - heating or burning it is also not a “true” flavor. Only the raw wood would be the true flavor.

Your premise about fermentation / low grade I would think would lead to lower grades of wood yielding higher yields of oil as a result, since there was more carbohydrate for fermentation.

Rather - I think both oil yield and skill and equipment (which can impact yields) would be a better indicator of the grades of wood used.

Oh - don’t forget distillation parameters (like temp and pressure), the set up, and type of distillation and equipment materials used.

At the end of the day - liking the scent of the oil is what matters, and that has both subjective and objective parameters.

Don’t forget the affect of aging and storage. Also factors in how something smells.

Maybe we all should drink a beer and relax (also not the true flavors of wheat and hops 🤫)

😉💪🏼🎉

Firstly thank you for taking time to share your knowledge and explain things.
I appreciate that.

I just think you misunderstood me or i think i didn't explain it properly.
My point was not that the cheesy (fermentation smell) should not occur in oudh or that that is unnatural.
I completely agree with you that the original smells/flavors of a product change due to fermentation, that is a logical consequence.
But that wasn't what I meant.
I was referring to @Al Shareef Oudh point that the use of white wood creates the cheesy smell during the fermentation process.
I have there fore explained some things, the conclusion is this:
When white wood is used extensively (larger volume of carbohydrate present), active fermentation occurs, unlike when less or no white wood is used.
This led me to the question:
Is the cheesy smell that arises the result of a lot of white wood being used? And therefore an indicator of lower quality oudh?

Perhaps the terms have caused some confusion, but by lower quality I do not mean that the oil is of low quality, but the white wood that is used. White wood is less valuable than oudh wood rich in oil.
Perhaps you understand me better now, I should have explained it a little better, so I understand your conclusion.