Pachoulis -- recommendations wanted
- Thread starter roflwaffle
- Start date
Shiningrobes
True Ouddict
You know if you are looking for something to displace some volume still you might be able to use sauerkraut weights. They might fit in your barrel and would be easier to clean than marbles. There are different types but the r ones I’m familiar with are just discs of smooth glass about 3/4” thick and 3.75” in diameter
roflwaffle
True Ouddict
Hm, not sure how i'd get those weights in, the bung hole is like 1/2" OD. Marbles shouldnt be too hard to use.
MaxFromHolland
True Ouddict
Haha cool 😎
roflwaffle
True Ouddict
I eagerly await my title 😛. but of 2 barrels, one was far less leaky so thats the one. currently just has the rum in it for preaging. the other one i think i need to wax and ensure it'd be able to hold oil
MaxFromHolland
True Ouddict
MaxFromHolland
True Ouddict
Did you give them some time to soak up water first?
roflwaffle
True Ouddict
Yes, water first, then rum. The other one I am awaiting some barrel wax, it may self seal with water, but that will just leak again once EOs are in it.
Mr.P
oud<3er
Make sure the barrel wax has no tendency to dissolve in patchouli oil! Maybe a long chance and worrying about nothing but essential oils are able to dissolve certain nonpolar things pretty well like plastics and all of that.
roflwaffle
True Ouddict
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1755-1315/1116/1/012015/pdf
I know we've discussed dark vs light patch before. I think you mentioned light costs more, and at the time I think I doubted you, so this reminded me. It confirms that industry generally views it as contamination. I think I just need to give up my notion that dark color = perceived better (in aged anyway). It prob tracks for things made in the 70s, as iron was standard, nobody was using stainless then, then so color was a marker to sell the idea of aged from the time (vs dpg adulterated headship stock), but I guess doesn't make it right. It was interesting to see claims that iron content often exceeded even recommended iron often enough.. which explains inconsistent color change between vendors. So 'new world' best aged is thick, but still dark amber. I'm guessing oak will impart some color, but color immaterial I suppose apart from perception
An odd case of 'traditional' apparently not being better with a modern lens
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MaxFromHolland
True Ouddict
It explains why dark is cheaper and more readily avail to the public. But.. industry preferences may have less to do with richness of scent and more with ease of processing and compliance with 1001 rules.
A trip down the supermarket is enough to illustrate that gap 😬
Though it could be that the average state of field distillation rigs is declining, i think there always was a poverty driven make-do culture.
So i would not let the article be reason to depart from the idea that the dark oil is the real thing, worth aging and keeping.
roflwaffle
True Ouddict
It could easily be the opposite as well. The article implies that opposite case to be the case, but it is a singular paper. I don't believe iron content to be driving any regulation constraints. I think it's going to require further research though to get to the bottom of the reality of it I think.
Could be like bret, and character vs contamination is (somewhat) debatable, or it could have a clear answer one way or the other for aging ( or fermented vs non oud)
I'll be using a dark patch either way, just not sweating the lack of molasses dark as a lack of something desirable, barring evidence either way
My test of adding additional iron to aged patch was positive for it further darkening, so it is an option, but if it's just damaging the smell or stability long term, not worth it just because I can, so it's not just a hypothetical
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MaxFromHolland
True Ouddict
Think a decent light is <5 ppm, decent dark is <25 ppm and budgetstore 'quality' with the harsh sharp opening notes are between 60-200 ppm.
The decent dark will turn darker with age due to chemical processes between the botanical components, while the budget stuff turns darker because of chemical mineral processes.
The former will turn smooth over time, the latter may improve but maintains the harsh sharpness.
I would not add iron for the sake of colour, given the above, triggering the wrong chemical process so to speak.
Guess its just a matter of taste to choose an MD, light or dark as base material to age then.
roflwaffle
True Ouddict
The current rabbit hole, plus the (limited) academic work on patchouli chemistry, leans toward my working theory that color and odor are surprisingly unrelated.
Iron does amplify the oxidation reactions, yes. But the real twist is rate. A slow oxidation works through the olefins and "uses them up" into various monomeric oxygenated compounds, (which change the smell), without much thickening or color change. Supply O2 abundantly and those same olefins still react, but now they polymerize as well, and that's what brings the darkening and thickening. Results depend on how fast the oxygen arrives.
Iron also darkens on its own, by a separate mechanism. That's why my dropping iron into an aged sample colored it up fast even though the sample was oxidatively "done". And force-oxidizing that same aged sample with heavy O2 did not thicken or darken it, because its reactive olefins were already spent into other compounds, leaving nothing to readily polymerize.
So color isn't really a property of the oil's identity or quality (setting aside any iron it already carries). It's set by two things: how much reactive olefin is still in there, and how fast oxygen hits it. Fast O2 on a substrate-rich oil gives polymer plus color; slow O2 lets the olefins convert without coloring; a "spent" oil won't darken significantly no matter how much oxygen you throw at it.
Now, totally possible I'm missing the forest through the trees here, but it seems to best align with the results i'm getting with these various samples in force-aging trials. Since iron is only an accelerant (and effectively a dye), it should mean over years that even a light patch will darken if given a loose cap/o2, and a dark patch wont darken much if given minimal headspace, and a dark patch will darken faster still with excess o2.
And you're right, in either case, cheap sharp patch will remain cheap sharp patch, though the top terpenes should burn off given enough time and o2. It still doesn't really gel with 'old thick dark patch is better' lore though, as more things polymerize and go to coloration, but i suppose the polymers could work as fixitives? Or, forced o2 does polymerize but some other mechanism also causes viscosity over long periods as well, and my 15yr sample just isn't old enough yet, and force o2 is 'cheating' with poor results. i dunno 😀
Mr.P
oud<3er
I definitely agree that age, dark color and thickness are not indicators of aromatic quality in themselves, and people would be best not to use those as proxies for quality. My favorite old ones are quite mobile, although some of the sticky ones are great in their own way too (although I think on average much muted because of all of the polymerization or whatever). And some of the oils that call to me the loudest these days are modern distillations of Aceh oil or various heart notes and fractions.
I wonder about the effects of iron on odor! It would be surprising to me if it had no influence given the effect on vetiver and it's general influence in food and so on! I'm pretty sure I have smelled vetiver with very clear iron / rust notes - always assumed it was literally iron from distillation but of course I don't know that for a fact!
I wonder about the effects of iron on odor! It would be surprising to me if it had no influence given the effect on vetiver and it's general influence in food and so on! I'm pretty sure I have smelled vetiver with very clear iron / rust notes - always assumed it was literally iron from distillation but of course I don't know that for a fact!
roflwaffle
True Ouddict
What I was most confused by, or still not sure is that if the aging potential comes from the oxidation of those olefins (along with esterification and other minor things), then MDs and heart fractions would age worse. They'd be better off up front, but wouldn't develop the right depth as they cut away most of the precursors that add depth over time. That seems like a critical fact to 'get right'.
Mr.P
oud<3er
Agreed, I would think carefully about "putting up" a fraction or heart or molecular distillate. I would go for the full fat oil. Find some freshly distilled rugged spazzy oil, stick it in a flask and forget about it for a decade.
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Mr.P
oud<3er
One thing worth mentioning is that thickness in the very old oils is a pain in the ass and every time you use a little bit of them you end up wasting a bunch compared to something that you can handle normally. Or else you have to constantly heat it up and melt it which can't be good. Or you have to dilute it in alcohol which is another compromise. Also, Some of them seem to produce dark fine granular sediment when diluted.
I'm going to have to go through my old thick ones again simply focusing on the question of whether there's some positive unifying characteristics shared by the dark/thick/iron-heavy oils.
I think it was mentioned (and I agree with the thought) that maybe those thick ones might be unique in terms of offering novel fixative with a slightly different profile to perfumers trying to keep it to an all natural palette.
Another possibility is that the fact that they have a more muted aroma (and I think there's no question they are softer in aroma than the fluid ones) transforms them into a functionally different material. This allows certain aspects of the patchouli scent to be introduced without the usual entourage that we associate with young oil, and allows for different types of unique accords or ultimate fragrances. This might translate to them having more value even though they may not smell or be better according to some other metric. I'm just speculating here but I think both of these are likely the case and are part of the reason why the old sticky stuff has appeal in spite of basically being patchouli oil contaminated with iron.
I'm going to have to go through my old thick ones again simply focusing on the question of whether there's some positive unifying characteristics shared by the dark/thick/iron-heavy oils.
I think it was mentioned (and I agree with the thought) that maybe those thick ones might be unique in terms of offering novel fixative with a slightly different profile to perfumers trying to keep it to an all natural palette.
Another possibility is that the fact that they have a more muted aroma (and I think there's no question they are softer in aroma than the fluid ones) transforms them into a functionally different material. This allows certain aspects of the patchouli scent to be introduced without the usual entourage that we associate with young oil, and allows for different types of unique accords or ultimate fragrances. This might translate to them having more value even though they may not smell or be better according to some other metric. I'm just speculating here but I think both of these are likely the case and are part of the reason why the old sticky stuff has appeal in spite of basically being patchouli oil contaminated with iron.
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roflwaffle
True Ouddict
Received some patch goodies 1) my 1L of aged, 2) a sampling of perfumery houses materials. I am surprised to say that the robertet absolute was quite nice. I just got my hands on them today so my nose is all kinds of shot, but that stood out as an early notable. Quite unique. Its quite thick however out of the gate, so likely wouldn't do well in a barrel aging situation, but definitely something i want to explore further. The patch heart SFE also shows some promise for immediate wear. Also have a lead on a custom distillation done for a perfumer on a discord in indonesia that he claims is fantastic, so i await more details on that, he described it as having a blue tea note, so that could be fun.
Mr.P
oud<3er
The robertet absolute has received a lot of praise over the years. In the context of a side-by-side I get some carnation like notes that I don't really notice when I smell it individually. And I'm a big fan of the patch heart SFE, it's not spectacular but every time I wear it at some point during the day I find myself being charmed by some little facet or another. It's not showy but it's very well balanced
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