Help me create (Beginner)

[Amberbreens]

Hello everyone,

so I'd use this thread for all my questions regarding attar-making.

I experimented a bit already by mixing some things - was not bad, but I think I don't have a good feeling for ratio yet.

I'd love to tell you what all I have and asked you to please give me some advice on what I blend together and how much.

From Apothecary's Garden:

Musk rat oil and tincture
Ambergris 10% tincture
Hyraceum absolu
Musk root absolue
Mastix chios oil
Storax oil (very thin)
Tonka tincture
Benzoin Sumatra absolutely
Benzoin siam absolutely
Bushman's candle tincture
Myrrh absolutely
Benzyl Benzoate


From Duftkumpels (Germany):
Patchouli Alhambra oil
Castoreum tincture
Iso e Super

From India
20 year old Mysore sandalwood oil

From here and there

Clary sage essential oil
Vanilla absolutely
Frangipani oil


I think that's it. I sadly don't have more ready to use ambergris, my macerations just started.

Can anyone give me advice on how to make a nice and slightly sweet attar from (some of) those ingredients? What would you do?

Also any recommendations on where to buy a small amount (1 ml wold be enough) ready to use deer musk oil or tincture would be much appreciated.

Best wishes
Amberbreens

 

[mobyus]

Yes, I'm about to order there! Did you use the grains or the tincture? Did you order both musk, Siberian and Mongolian? Which one is Sweater?

Which types of ambergris exactly did you use and where did you buy it?

Best wishes
The breens

Hi Amberbreens,

Allow me to clarifly. I bought a premixed product here in Saudi with the mentioned ingredients. I did not mix them myself. I would love to reach that level though where I’m familiar enough with ingredients, their names, types, ratios,,,etc to make artisanal mixes myself as hobby.

so going on what you mentioned, I think grains are dry and tincture is liquid. The particular mix I had was Siberian gazelle musk (not specified what form) and the whale ambergris gave the scent a mildness and longevity. It had a light oud smell from the oud. It smelled unique.

im unfamiliar with absolutes. I think jojoba oils and coconut oils are used as base?

 

[Amberbreens]

I think part of what you are encountering is that apothecary's garden is not selling absolutes they are selling alcohol extracted resinoids (evaporated tinctures). These are single step alcohol i they have a lot of material in them that you would not find in a true absolute.

If you look, somewhere on the site they mention that they are using the term "absolute" as synonymous with "resin absolute" (which is actually technical term for a resinoid where alcohol is used instead of hexane or some other solvent). Alcohol is not a very selective solvent so it extracts all kinds of things besides the aromatic materials resulting in the thick or solid extracts.

Actual absolutes are much more challenging to manufacture - it requires two separate extractions, lower yield, higher cost and produce more refined / easily dissolved products. You should basically think of these things as almost like a "concrete", and the essential oil probably makes up well under 50% of the resulting goo.

If you cannot melt the material you may want to freeze it and pulverize it. There are also techniques for dispersing hard sticky materials. One involves grinding in the mortar and pestle with clean sand. The same can be done with "loaf sugar" I'm not sure exactly what that is but I believe it's just granular sugar more or less. The grains of sand and sugar act as a kind of abrasive and also disperse the fragments and keep them from just sticking back together again.

The sand / resinoid mixture can then be shaken / mixed with alcohol, and the sand settles quickly to the bottom. After maceration, the infused liquid can be poured off and filtered as needed. I've actually done this once with ambergris it worked very well. Totally unnecessary in retrospect for that particular material but I had a good time

Thank you so much for the Infos. Well it doesn't make a difference what we call it. I love the stuff from AG, it smells good and is more or less affordable - so if it's resinoids, ok, then I'm having my problem with these. But I also ordered "absolutes" (vanilla and tobacco) from two other places, and they're just about the same.

Good idea with the freezing, I always only did that with ambergris, here it worked well, it just never popped up in my mind that I could do this as well with liquids (would they even freeze if they contain oil????)

The sand-technique I also heard of, but I simply can't put sand in my precious ambergris and musks. But thanks sooo much for the advice with freezing! Will definetly try!


Something else:

I always need a lil' gourmand sweetness to round off my attars and vanilla is my fave scent to do this with. So what is the best way to use vanilla? Are you all preferring vanilla absolutes? Or is it better to use it as eo or tincture?

Does anyone have any other idea on adding sweetness? I'd love to go with tonka, but always just find rather thin extracts, would love to have an oil.

Does anyone know about a pipe tobacco fragrance that I can work with? I loved that smell since I smelled it in my childhood, when my uncle smoked the pipe.

All the best
Amberbreens

 

[Mr.P]

Thank you so much for the Infos. Well it doesn't make a difference what we call it. I love the stuff from AG, it smells good and is more or less affordable - so if it's resinoids, ok, then I'm having my problem with these. But I also ordered "absolutes" (vanilla and tobacco) from two other places, and they're just about the same.

Good idea with the freezing, I always only did that with ambergris, here it worked well, it just never popped up in my mind that I could do this as well with liquids (would they even freeze if they contain oil????)

The sand-technique I also heard of, but I simply can't put sand in my precious ambergris and musks. But thanks sooo much for the advice with freezing! Will definetly try!


Something else:

I always need a lil' gourmand sweetness to round off my attars and vanilla is my fave scent to do this with. So what is the best way to use vanilla? Are you all preferring vanilla absolutes? Or is it better to use it as eo or tincture?

Does anyone have any other idea on adding sweetness? I'd love to go with tonka, but always just find rather thin extracts, would love to have an oil.

Does anyone know about a pipe tobacco fragrance that I can work with? I loved that smell since I smelled it in my childhood, when my uncle smoked the pipe.

All the best
Amberbreens

I did not mean to imply that there's anything wrong with the quality. But the fundamental answer to the question as to why you were having difficulty getting the materials to blend was because they were not absolutes. So the name does matter - it's not just a matter of semantics.

I think resinoids are fascinating and they bring in unique fixative properties. The fact that somebody is making these in small batches and not just keeping them for themselves is pretty miraculous.

 

[Kabir Attars]

@Amberbreens
Al-Salaamulikum
It's up to you with what you use for your perfume tincture, EO, Absolute
But just remember Vanilla blooms in perfume formulas so dose carefully.

 

[Mr.P]

By the way vanilla and tobacco absolutes both can be pretty pasty but those should respond to gentle warming in a way that the resinoids didn't. One clever way i heard of to do that is to microwave dry rice in a bowl - apparently it retains heat long enough so that you can bring it back to your workstation and set your bottles in the hot rice. I have not tried this myself I usually just use a hot water bath in a double walled insulated cup

 

[Amberbreens]

Thanks for all your input - it is much appreciated! 🙏🏻

So I've got a few questions, as new absolutes arrived and I have a small piece of gray ambergris and civet from Apothecary's Garden coming, as well as 0.5 g Mongolian deer musk grains from sibermusk and 5 ml musk tincture and 0.2 Siberian musk grains.

Since the deer musk grains are not plenty and very precious to me - what is the best way to process them? Since it's only 0.5 grams Mongolian - would you tincture or macerate them (have a good vintage Mysore oil) and how much oil/ethanol would you use on 0.5 grams Mongolian?

The tincture from sibermusk is ready to work with, right?

Also I was wondering - can tobacco absolute be used just like that? I remember having read often that raw tobacco is extremely toxic, so is it Safe to use in a 3 ml Attar blend?
In general, how safe is it, to use all these nice concentrated oils directly on skin? Do I HAVE TO mix with carrier oil?

And: Can anyone recommend and India-based vendor for high quality sandalwood oil? All the pages chat gpt is giving me ain't working. Thanks already!

Amberbreens

 

[OudtoSharon]

Thanks for all your input - it is much appreciated! 🙏🏻

So I've got a few questions, as new absolutes arrived and I have a small piece of gray ambergris and civet from Apothecary's Garden coming, as well as 0.5 g Mongolian deer musk grains from sibermusk and 5 ml musk tincture and 0.2 Siberian musk grains.

Since the deer musk grains are not plenty and very precious to me - what is the best way to process them? Since it's only 0.5 grams Mongolian - would you tincture or macerate them (have a good vintage Mysore oil) and how much oil/ethanol would you use on 0.5 grams Mongolian?

The tincture from sibermusk is ready to work with, right?

Also I was wondering - can tobacco absolute be used just like that? I remember having read often that raw tobacco is extremely toxic, so is it Safe to use in a 3 ml Attar blend?
In general, how safe is it, to use all these nice concentrated oils directly on skin? Do I HAVE TO mix with carrier oil?

And: Can anyone recommend and India-based vendor for high quality sandalwood oil? All the pages chat gpt is giving me ain't working. Thanks already!

Amberbreens

I am watching all of your communications, it seems we're on similar pages in our formulation journey! I was able to create a few of my own concretes by allowing everclear to evaporate from some older tinctures I had laying around. They had partially evaporated due to the inadequate material used on the dropper. This was pretty exciting since I'm an herbalist and created the tinctures myself! However, I've never worked from this material. I also just received an order from Apothecary's Garden, pricing is very reasonable for such an incredible product!!! Now if I could only find a source for oud and sandalwood, I'd be all set!!!! I'm disabled about to undergo surgeries 15 and 16, with multiple chronic illnesses which unfortunately has a huge impact on my financial abilities. Not to mention my 3 kiddos and the fact that these next surgeries require an out of state specialist for some hardcore work! So, I'm here for those recommendations as well! I'm also here if you'd like someone to bounce ideas off of or whatever else. I'm game!

 

[Amberbreens]

I am watching all of your communications, it seems we're on similar pages in our formulation journey! I was able to create a few of my own concretes by allowing everclear to evaporate from some older tinctures I had laying around. They had partially evaporated due to the inadequate material used on the dropper. This was pretty exciting since I'm an herbalist and created the tinctures myself! However, I've never worked from this material. I also just received an order from Apothecary's Garden, pricing is very reasonable for such an incredible product!!! Now if I could only find a source for oud and sandalwood, I'd be all set!!!! I'm disabled about to undergo surgeries 15 and 16, with multiple chronic illnesses which unfortunately has a huge impact on my financial abilities. Not to mention my 3 kiddos and the fact that these next surgeries require an out of state specialist for some hardcore work! So, I'm here for those recommendations as well! I'm also here if you'd like someone to bounce ideas off of or whatever else. I'm game!

Thanks for your comment! I'm also bit short on $ since my husband just moved here from India and doesn't have a job yet, but this will change.

Yes, Apothecary's Garden is awesome and actually they got me into natural perfumery. Initially, I just wanted to have some real ambergris, but then I saw all the things they offer and what you can do with them - that got me started. Spend a lot of money, since discovering them, as then I was fixed and looked more deeply into the matter, then I needed deer musk, too and sandalwood, and jasmine - now just a nice oud to begin with is missing.

Maybe someone can recommend a more feminine oud?

Blessings
Amberbreens

 

[Mr.P]

Thanks for all your input - it is much appreciated! 🙏🏻

So I've got a few questions, as new absolutes arrived and I have a small piece of gray ambergris and civet from Apothecary's Garden coming, as well as 0.5 g Mongolian deer musk grains from sibermusk and 5 ml musk tincture and 0.2 Siberian musk grains.

Since the deer musk grains are not plenty and very precious to me - what is the best way to process them? Since it's only 0.5 grams Mongolian - would you tincture or macerate them (have a good vintage Mysore oil) and how much oil/ethanol would you use on 0.5 grams Mongolian?

The tincture from sibermusk is ready to work with, right?

Also I was wondering - can tobacco absolute be used just like that? I remember having read often that raw tobacco is extremely toxic, so is it Safe to use in a 3 ml Attar blend?
In general, how safe is it, to use all these nice concentrated oils directly on skin? Do I HAVE TO mix with carrier oil?

And: Can anyone recommend and India-based vendor for high quality sandalwood oil? All the pages chat gpt is giving me ain't working. Thanks already!

Amberbreens

@An Najwa is a great source for sandalwood in India.

Tobacco absolute sometimes has nicotine and sometimes doesn't, the person who sold it to you might have information on that.

For 0.5 g musk I would suggest making a tincture, and I believe you could just follow the same ratio that ninjarob used. I see 7.5-10% on his site so maybe you can smell his tincture and decide if you want to make one that's stronger or weaker.

On the other hand you could try infusing in sandalwood oil just so you have a different facet of musk on hand. Extracting in sandalwood pulls out very different notes I have noticed…

 

[OudtoSharon]

Thanks for your comment! I'm also bit short on $ since my husband just moved here from India and doesn't have a job yet, but this will change.

Yes, Apothecary's Garden is awesome and actually they got me into natural perfumery. Initially, I just wanted to have some real ambergris, but then I saw all the things they offer and what you can do with them - that got me started. Spend a lot of money, since discovering them, as then I was fixed and looked more deeply into the matter, then I needed deer musk, too and sandalwood, and jasmine - now just a nice oud to begin with is missing.

Maybe someone can recommend a more feminine oud?

Blessings
AmbAmberbreen

Don't forget to check out the more reputable essential oil suppliers as well. I highly recommend staying away from the MLM brands, they aren't going to offer you anything except a higher price tag and potentially a pushy seller. A couple recommendations would be plant therapy, eden botanicals and edens garden. They can assist you with top and middle notes, even sandalwood and oud. However keep in mind the sandalwood is fresh and mostly Australian, Hawaiian or New Caledonia so different types than the Indian sandalwood that you may be used to. You can also save money by purchasing essential oils that are already diluted as well. I hope this helps! However, if you find a great (I hate to use the word affordable lol, I'm definitely in the wrong place during the wrong time in my life. Champagne taste on a kool-aid budget 😅😅😅) source for oud or some nice sandalwood please don't forget about me! Good luck!

 

[OudtoSharon]

@An Najwa is a great source for sandalwood in India.

Tobacco absolute sometimes has nicotine and sometimes doesn't, the person who sold it to you might have information on that.

For 0.5 g musk I would suggest making a tincture, and I believe you could just follow the same ratio that ninjarob used. I see 7.5-10% on his site so maybe you can smell his tincture and decide if you want to make one that's stronger or weaker.

On the other hand you could try infusing in sandalwood oil just so you have a different facet of musk on hand. Extracting in sandalwood pulls out very different notes I have noticed…

Hi there Mr. P,
I'm still a newbie, trying to figure out how to maneuver my way around the site. When recommendations are made for different suppliers. Is there a way to see what they actually have in stock? Or would I just have to reach out and start a conversation?

I greatly appreciate and guidance you could provide! Thanks so much!

Sharon

 

[Mr.P]

Hi there Mr. P,
I'm still a newbie, trying to figure out how to maneuver my way around the site. When recommendations are made for different suppliers. Is there a way to see what they actually have in stock? Or would I just have to reach out and start a conversation?

I greatly appreciate and guidance you could provide! Thanks so much!

Sharon

I recommend sending a message to An Najwa directly because his stock varies and he may be able to guide you based on what your specific needs are.

 

[OudtoSharon]

I recommend sending a message to An Najwa directly because his stock varies and he may be able to guide you based on what your specific needs are.

Great thank you so much! Is there a way to find most recommended suppliers shops vs user names. Or do the majority connect through messaging?

 

[Amberbreens]

An Najwa messaged me directly after seeing my post here - very forthcoming 😉 will tell my Indian mom in law to order from there.

One specific question:
I made two bases with help of chat gpt, liked them a lot, just added the heart notes after about 10 days, now one is waaay too flowery, think I put too much jasmine mainly. Any recommendations on how I can cover that heavy flowery note up a bit more? I don't want it so leathery either, so castoreum might not be the best choice.

And:

Just received civet from AG, it "smells" pretty wild. What do I use it with best to get the best outcome?

All the best
Amberbreens

 

[Kabir Attars]

@Amberbreens
Al-Salaamulikim
Civet works wonders on white florals like jasmine, turberose, lily, white rose.
Have fun

 

[Mr.P]

Great thank you so much! Is there a way to find most recommended suppliers shops vs user names. Or do the majority connect through messaging?

I believe most vendors here would be open to private messaging and that would probably be the best way to arrange something.

An Najwa messaged me directly after seeing my post here - very forthcoming 😉 will tell my Indian mom in law to order from there.

One specific question:
I made two bases with help of chat gpt, liked them a lot, just added the heart notes after about 10 days, now one is waaay too flowery, think I put too much jasmine mainly. Any recommendations on how I can cover that heavy flowery note up a bit more? I don't want it so leathery either, so castoreum might not be the best choice.

And:

Just received civet from AG, it "smells" pretty wild. What do I use it with best to get the best outcome?

All the best
Amberbreens

all of the old European perfumery books talk about diluting civet in alcohol and giving it a year to acquire a pleasant aroma.

 

[Amberbreens]

I believe most vendors here would be open to private messaging and that would probably be the best way to arrange something.

all of the old European perfumery books talk about diluting civet in alcohol and giving it a year to acquire a pleasant aroma.

Oh sorry, yes, I have the civet tincture already. Was just wondering what to use it with. But will try white flowers.

 

[Amberbreens]

So I used Civet in my flowery blend, not bad, but what stays of the smell over night till next morning is a very fecal note. I first thought I smell shit, but then realized it was my wrists. Just put one drop in a blend of about 4ml - is there any way to work against this? Keeping the good heart note of civet but like adding a base note that is stronger than the civet making the lasting scent a bit nicer?

Thanks
Amberbreens

 

[Mr.P]

So I used Civet in my flowery blend, not bad, but what stays of the smell over night till next morning is a very fecal note. I first thought I smell shit, but then realized it was my wrists. Just put one drop in a blend of about 4ml - is there any way to work against this? Keeping the good heart note of civet but like adding a base note that is stronger than the civet making the lasting scent a bit nicer?

Thanks
Amberbreens

Supposedly the fecal note will decrease with time as the tincture ages. And it sounds like you just might have much more than necessary in your mixture. This is not a material that I work with so I have no experience to draw on beyond that. Clipping is from Arctander.

 

[Kabir Attars]

Al-Salaamulikim
Civet is best used at very low difusetion level like 1% and out of that you are using only a trace, like I would dip a tooth pik in to the civet and then wipe the tooth pik clean on the side of the bottle. Then swirl the tooth pik in my perfume formula this is what I call a trace. And for a nicer smell of civet let it macerate for a year or two on its own before using. There is a thread on here about civet check that out.

Civet

I’d like to share these “Civet horns” as they’re called. Traditionally in some cultures in the Arabian peninsula, the groom gives his future wife a dowry, this can include many things from gold, to food and animals, to clothing , and perfumes. One of those perfumes is a civet based “body butter”...

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