MFH - Experiments & Materials

[Mr.P]

Just pulled it. First time a patch fresh out of the still smells nice on the skin. Bit green obviously but zero offnotes and after a few minutes sweet and creamy already. Bottle and forget for a year (challenge) 😋😋😋😋😋😋

I'm proud as a dog with 7 tails 😇

I would be very happy with myself if I had distilled 20 mL of patchouli as well. I guess it's simple enough when you have figured out how everything needs to be set up and all that but that's a relatively challenging distillation with all of the time involved. And I do think you have to do that longer base note distillation or you'll miss what patchouli is really most famous for. That said, some kind of specialized top fraction of patchouli could be an interesting material on a couple of levels!

Has me wondering about how to identify a quality source for patchouli leaf that's been properly curated etc.… it would be interesting to get different sources and compare the outcomes. I really need to stay away from distillation with water though until I get something set up where I have the hydrosol flowing back into the pot.

Simple enough but I exist on a shoestring budget and can't purchase everything that catches my fancy so this will maybe be a project for next summer.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

I would be very happy with myself if I had distilled 20 mL of patchouli as well. I guess it's simple enough when you have figured out how everything needs to be set up and all that but that's a relatively challenging distillation with all of the time involved. And I do think you have to do that longer base note distillation or you'll miss what patchouli is really most famous for. That said, some kind of specialized top fraction of patchouli could be an interesting material on a couple of levels!

Has me wondering about how to identify a quality source for patchouli leaf that's been properly curated etc.… it would be interesting to get different sources and compare the outcomes. I really need to stay away from distillation with water though until I get something set up where I have the hydrosol flowing back into the pot.

Simple enough but I exist on a shoestring budget and can't purchase everything that catches my fancy so this will maybe be a project for next summer.

If you can setup your alembic in such way that the level of the hydrosol is somewhat above the level of the boiling water, then it is easy and cheap to modify for cohobation. You would need to solder a small hose post on the alembic or use one with a threaded end for wall mounting ($3). And you need some matching pvc hose that runs from the outlet of the separator flask up to the desired level then curve down below the level and curve up towards the kettle.
First 'u turn' = setting the level of the hydrosol; second 'u turn' = a water trap preventing the steam to go the wrong way. Happy to create a sketch if words don't paint a clear picture.

Sourcing is always a thing. I happen to have a local supplier that is critical about the quality they sell. @roflwaffle mentioned a US source a few posts back. Perhaps they sell small packages for potpourri purpose that allow you to sample the scent.

Alternatively, extraction of patch is interesting as well. Only downside is that the resulting extract is pitchblack. But you could distill the alcohol over, leaving the pigments behind, i think.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Honey in ethanol, thermo-dynamic extraction (fancy for heat and shake🤫)
View attachment 56453

Not sure that the scent will survive the temperature properly.
Just found an interesting method* to run the extraction at room temp with the normal daily shake regime:
- Put the honey in jar
- Add clean sand and stirr until it is crumbly
- Add high proof alcohol
You now (should) have honey coated sand grains and plenty surface area

* Once you add alcohol to honey, the alcohol pulls out the little bit of water that keeps honey sort-of liquid. Result is some toffee consistency clump that you cannot shake loose and the alcohol cannot penetrate to collect scent molecules.

 

[roflwaffle]

If you can setup your alembic in such way that the level of the hydrosol is somewhat above the level of the boiling water, then it is easy and cheap to modify for cohobation. You would need to solder a small hose post on the alembic or use one with a threaded end for wall mounting ($3). And you need some matching pvc hose that runs from the outlet of the separator flask up to the desired level then curve down below the level and curve up towards the kettle.
First 'u turn' = setting the level of the hydrosol; second 'u turn' = a water trap preventing the steam to go the wrong way. Happy to create a sketch if words don't paint a clear picture.

Sourcing is always a thing. I happen to have a local supplier that is critical about the quality they sell. @roflwaffle mentioned a US source a few posts back. Perhaps they sell small packages for potpourri purpose that allow you to sample the scent.

Alternatively, extraction of patch is interesting as well. Only downside is that the resulting extract is pitchblack. But you could distill the alcohol over, leaving the pigments behind, i think.

My 'source' was just BulkAroma (india) had it as $12/kg, not so secret, but not domestic. indonesian at least, but BA is generally short on details, as you prob know, generally pretty OK quality wise at least for a trial run.

As for continous or hydrosol recycling, it can be done with a little futzing with your receiving vessel height. just need to set your return point mid receiving point and run a tube back to boiling chamber. if you have even a receiving like sep funnel, open er up and run a tube down then back up to the right height and it should just automatically work, prob a few bucks for a port and a drill to add a hole for port, and some rubber hose, and another buck or so for a cap for that port when not in use. Generally will work for any floating oil, sinking oils, and.. well you gotta redo it all for a diff receiving vessel setup, but patch should float i assume?

 

[MaxFromHolland]

patch should float i assume?

Yup

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Sand works just perfect.
It shakes as if it is just sand & water.
Method verified 🙂

 

[Mr.P]

Thanks for the advice, as I said I know it's a simple matter, but I'm spending my spare change on other things, and in this case putting that into operation would go along with having a larger boiler and receiver for storing chopped plant matter. My stills are tiny! I do have the glassware that will separate hydrosol and drain it into a tube - it's just a matter of getting another still or possibly making one from this large aluminum pressure cooker that I have although I really don't like going that route these days I've already done my time there... what I want is a larger capacity copper alembic - I don't think I can improve on that with a janky homemade still... 🙂

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Thanks for the advice, as I said I know it's a simple matter, but I'm spending my spare change on other things, and in this case putting that into operation would go along with having a larger boiler and receiver for storing chopped plant matter. My stills are tiny! I do have the glassware that will separate hydrosol and drain it into a tube - it's just a matter of getting another still or possibly making one from this large aluminum pressure cooker that I have although I really don't like going that route these days I've already done my time there... what I want is a larger capacity copper alembic - I don't think I can improve on that with a janky homemade still... 🙂

Ha thats the big issue with copper alembic..
Once you got one you dont want anything else anymore..

Allthough, with that alu cooker you at least have the thermal properties right! Mine is alu too.

 

[Mr.P]

Ha thats the big issue with copper alembic..
Once you got one you dont want anything else anymore..

Allthough, with that alu cooker you at least have the thermal properties right! Mine is alu too.

Yeah and you know what I regret saying "janky" - I was really thinking of my past endeavors and some of the chaos that went along with trying to keep my homemade contraptions reasonably functional. There's something very appealing about getting a nice purpose made device that has been designed to mitigate some of the issues from the ground up.

There's no reason for me not to use the pressure cooker as a Hydro distillation unit it would not take any hardware at all to just pop a hose onto the vent and run it right into the copper condensers or any of the others. But I'm not sure I want to go the route of modifying that with a hydrosol return - I like using it as a pressure cooker too.

It's nice that it has a plate at the bottom to keep plant matter from contacting the bottom of the pot itself.

 

[roflwaffle]

Sand works just perfect.
It shakes as if it is just sand & water.
Method verified 🙂
View attachment 56454

why sand vs like glass beads or other forms? like, I get sand is cheap, small, but I imagine it'll still clog filters pretty good? Its a super cool idea, i havn't thought of using a fine grit material to help in shaking. following to see if it settles out.. going to just decant from the top while filtering?

 

[roflwaffle]

Thanks for the advice, as I said I know it's a simple matter, but I'm spending my spare change on other things, and in this case putting that into operation would go along with having a larger boiler and receiver for storing chopped plant matter. My stills are tiny! I do have the glassware that will separate hydrosol and drain it into a tube - it's just a matter of getting another still or possibly making one from this large aluminum pressure cooker that I have although I really don't like going that route these days I've already done my time there... what I want is a larger capacity copper alembic - I don't think I can improve on that with a janky homemade still... 🙂

you know your still more than i do, so maybe the geometry of it makes it so the port would be too low. I'm finding a similar issue with my tiny microscale glass still, only way to make it continuous is to add adapters to raise the height a bit, and im sure that at some point it starts to act like a reflux column and defeat the entire purpose.

if you do find a good source for a medium sized alembic, i'm all ears, they're around, just... hard to justify the cost, and would want to find the 'perfect size' before moving on it.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

why sand vs like glass beads or other forms? like, I get sand is cheap, small, but I imagine it'll still clog filters pretty good? Its a super cool idea, i havn't thought of using a fine grit material to help in shaking. following to see if it settles out.. going to just decant from the top while filtering?

It has been sitting for 12+ hours and just with moderate shaking all was loose. I was a bit suspect that it might clump while left alone.

Well i happened to have a bucket of fine clean sand (to put in paint) so it was an obvious choice over anything that would require shopping 🙂

I wont be able to recover all ethanol from the sand, am aware of that limitation. (Well i could distill it out ofcourse). I probably put it in the vacuum filter thingy.

Not sure how long this type of extraction will need, my chart does not (yet) list amorphous sugar matrix, but with blotter strips and a nose i should be able to figure that out😎

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Yeah and you know what I regret saying "janky" - I was really thinking of my past endeavors and some of the chaos that went along with trying to keep my homemade contraptions reasonably functional. There's something very appealing about getting a nice purpose made device that has been designed to mitigate some of the issues from the ground up.

There's no reason for me not to use the pressure cooker as a Hydro distillation unit it would not take any hardware at all to just pop a hose onto the vent and run it right into the copper condensers or any of the others. But I'm not sure I want to go the route of modifying that with a hydrosol return - I like using it as a pressure cooker too.

It's nice that it has a plate at the bottom to keep plant matter from contacting the bottom of the pot itself.

Oh yes, such bottom grid is nice to have. I started with the pressure cooker because it seemed a cheap way to get started, you remember that video of the slooow talking British old man for sure.
Cheap to get started yes, cheap to get right no. Think, looking back, i spend pretty much the same € i could have bought a real still for.
But on the other hand, i now have it exactly the way i want it to be and i understand every part of it.
I can do both steam and hydro and it seems i even managed to get a bit of the deg-bhapka magic build it.
Nice to finally be done tinkering (even though i like tinkering) and concentrate on the distillation side of things, dreaming up co-distillations, all that.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Think just tonight i've read some 4 things one could go deep rabbit-hole on.
One really should become interested in perfumery at age 15 to stand a chance 🙂

 

[Mr.P]

Think just tonight i've read some 4 things one could go deep rabbit-hole on.
One really should become interested in perfumery at age 15 to stand a chance 🙂

Absolutely- it is bottomless. I have been stuck in the hole since the age of 12 (or 18 depending on how i figure it). I tried extracting lilac when i was about 12, and was majorly distracted by someone wearing rose oil when i was riding the public bus through the Atlantic Ave. neighborhood in Brooklyn (a middle eastern neighborhood at the time) at about the same age. First rose water distillation was my senior year of high school, that was my first legitimate dive down the hole (my earlier experiences were merely noticing the existence of the hole...)

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Don't know how to write a cohesive story about the recent experiments, but can share notes fwiw..

Found that the oud + cedar had a very narrow sweetspot. Don't know how that would change during maturing but i felt risk of losing that bit of magic quickly in the blend.

Trying some guaiac felt like things coming together. The oud is neat not that great, with guaiac is becomes nice and soft, a mild smoky note appears.

Guaiac also has a honey note which matches with the floral notes of the bergamot.

The oud seems to enhance the honey note in the guaiac.

The bay has very fresh topnotes, but also a light fruit and green herbs, i dont have much green so felt like keeping it at a fairly large %.

I feel the bay also connects with the fruitnote in the oud.

Because of the bay i didnt feel i should use much cypress.

Just a small bit seems to lighten the frankincense a bit.

Used just enough styrax to add some vanilla sweet to the drydown and make everything a bit softer. I noticed in small % it works nice and softening, higher % smells nice but then it becomes a focal point ans somehow it reminds of cheap incense sticks, tried to avoid that happening.

The oakmoss adds to the green note but is is quite mild so i used a bit more. I can't smell the oakmoss in the blend but without the other notes are more seperate.

I keep scratching my head about how little citrus and how much floral i get from the bergamot in this blend. So i was happy to dose a bit larger.

Fresh notes of pepper are similar to those in the frankincense, causing the fresh to broaden and extend into the heart instead of disappearing quickly after the open.

The overall sequence is airy - green herbal - floral - resinous - honey - wood with some mystic note lingering around most of the time.

Painting fragrances on skin with glass dipstick is a nice way to experiment and learn, but it is nog easy to translate in the bottle, dont think this will be the first and last version 🙂

Oh and where #1 is quite loud and chaotic with notes come and go, #2 seems more calm, more foreground background than come and go. Like there still was something floral far in the drydown of yesterdays testpatch. Hope i managed to put that effect in the bottle.

Live and learn.
Fixative properties of guaiac are pretty hefty and replacing cedar with guaiac 1 for 1 is not a smart move: zero projection left.
I will try along the line of 12,5% cedar and 2,5% guaiac instead, to add a touch of that honey warmth without glueing all the poor molecules to the skin permamently 🙂
Which also means that the pepper is back to 2,5% as increasing that was not the solution for the problem.
Here's a screenshot from the notebook in case you try to keep track:

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Live and learn.
Fixative properties of guaiac are pretty hefty and replacing cedar with guaiac 1 for 1 is not a smart move: zero projection left.
I will try along the line of 12,5% cedar and 2,5% guaiac instead, to add a touch of that honey warmth without glueing all the poor molecules to the skin permamently 🙂
Which also means that the pepper is back to 2,5% as increasing that was not the solution for the problem.

Edit replaced the table in previous post with correct units and full named ingredients.

Made iteration #3 with ,04 guaiac for starters, can always add a little if i feel the need.

Btw Version 1 is beginning to settle. Seems less chaotic, but definitely the wrong type of oud. No place in this blend for its leather and tobacco notes.
Quite in your face open, transition to heart is nice, then the wrong oud begins to annoy. That's that.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

A while back i pressed and concentrated a large 1,8L jar of oakmoss tincture down to roughly 250ml and stored it away.
That 250ml seemed of the desired strength, sniffing a teststrip (after letting the alc evap from the strip).

Today i took 30ml from that jar and added 20ml IPM, then evaporated the alcohol. Result 20ml of roughly the same strenght.

This is a fairly quick and easy method that has the benefit of your stock being stored as alcohol based. One can simply make another bottle with the same or different strenght. Considering that i also have some vintage (45yo) oakmoss tincture, which is amazing, it seems, it keeps well that way.
Concentrating the bulk down is not that tedious. Finishing the remaining thereafter is. But this way, by just taking a small amount when needed it isn't tedious at all.
Think that is a win-win step forward.

Cant really compare both my old and new bottle as the process wasn't the same and the old one is jojoba based. Old one has fewer topnotes and thus less bright, but does have an almost incense like base. New one is brighter, more like the vintage one. Hard to judge the base, seems woody sans incense vibe.

 

[roflwaffle]

Nice! I picked some amount of tree mosses this weekend to do similar. At least for comparison purposes. Unsure I'll ever use it without a bit more research I to atriniol variations, but we'll see.

Guessing just enough eth to cover and give it. Well a few months? Strain and press, then filter.. or there's any other learned tricks?

 

[Mr.P]

Live and learn.
Fixative properties of guaiac are pretty hefty and replacing cedar with guaiac 1 for 1 is not a smart move: zero projection left.
I will try along the line of 12,5% cedar and 2,5% guaiac instead, to add a touch of that honey warmth without glueing all the poor molecules to the skin permamently 🙂
Which also means that the pepper is back to 2,5% as increasing that was not the solution for the problem.
Here's a screenshot from the notebook in case you try to keep track:
View attachment 56496

Looks good wish I had some advice to contribute or something but it's nice to see you sharing your experiments here. I have a couple of samples of guaiac - one is an older one that definitely has a fair amount of personality (for better and worse…) if I'm recalling correctly quite phenolic, almost smoky, thick honey resinous, a bit bitter… the other arrived more recently - a "heart" note which was much somewhat simplified and definitely more approachable. I look forward to experimenting with these some day.