MFH - Experiments & Materials

[MaxFromHolland]

Looks good wish I had some advice to contribute or something but it's nice to see you sharing your experiments here. I have a couple of samples of guaiac - one is an older one that definitely has a fair amount of personality (for better and worse…) if I'm recalling correctly quite phenolic, almost smoky, thick honey resinous, a bit bitter… the other arrived more recently - a "heart" note which was much somewhat simplified and definitely more approachable. I look forward to experimenting with these some day.

Think mine probably most resemble that first one you described. Not a scent that goes unnoticed for sure. I like it though. I specially like it combined with oakmoss, the two complement eachother very well, giving the oakmoss more warm brown depth. Combined with south Indian vetiver (mild, mitti note) is also nice, brings out some smoky warmth. I like those two sometimes simply layered on my skin as an evening scent. Should secure more of that vetiver, its such nice batch.
I think in the Tibetan project it converts the sweet note to warmer honeysweet and it kind of enhances the oud, giving it a bit more nuance and a hint of smoke.
Trade-off situation though as it also makes the scent very close to skin, not sure what else i could have wrong.
I don't intent to fill a room, but a gentle fragrant swirl when i move around is nice.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Since Tibetan project #2 is an intermediate version, i figured i could put 1ml of that with 5ml ethanol in a small spraybottle. Nice to figure out how it behaves as conventional perfume, projectionwise. That's for tomorrow though..

Meanwhile i found inspiration for another fragrance. Where i have the pretentious idea to bring Vetyver by Nicolaï down to the essence and build it up again with my own translation of the notes*. I never smelled the original but i read it's quite the spice bomb. That will be gone 🙂

* It's fun exercise to take a set of notes from something proven and try to make them work in your own way. Kind of forces leaving safe territory..

Secret preliminary idea:
The ??? Project
Petitgrain Amara, Paraguay 25% - for a floral-citrus bright open
Bergamot Risso, Italy 15% - support and bridge

Vetiver, south India 20% - the heart, earthy, green, mild
Frankincense maydi 10% - bridge
Black pepper, Madagascar, Biolandes 9% - my alternative for the 'spice bomb' ingredients

Still contemplating to slip-in some Ylang to extend the floral into the heart, also thought about Lisylang from Robertet which is brighter and could add some air to the heart, but maybe bit to gourmand? I dont want anything creamy. Will experiment and try to figure it out 🤓

Oakmoss MFH, new batch 20% - support, fresh woody
Tabac absolue 10% in TEC, Robertet 1% - hint of animal/leather

First need to go buy that last ingredient and dream up a name though..

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Swiped some of this unnamed..

Currently contemplating* a tea (very honey assam tgfop + pinghe yesheng you zi hua) and pinebark distillation. Probably will do the teas first to collect hydrosol** and then use that to steam-distill the bark.

..that has been maturing since mid may.
Nice to revisit after trying to learn the first babysteps of traditional perfumery, as this is kind of the other end of the spectrum. Its still clearly pinebark, yet softer, more aromatic. Eyes closed it puts me in a summer sunlit forest, distant flowers, expecting to hear some kids laughter or a dog barking, that kind of vibe 🙂 Yet it's just some bark and tea..

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Swiped some of this unnamed..

..that has been maturing since mid may.
Nice to revisit after trying to learn the first babysteps of traditional perfumery, as this is kind of the other end of the spectrum. Its still clearly pinebark, yet softer, more aromatic. Eyes closed it puts me in a summer sunlit forest, distant flowers, expecting to hear some kids laughter or a dog barking, that kind of vibe 🙂 Yet it's just some bark and tea..

While sewing a lot of odd shaped pieces of fabric, apparantly i had some brain cells left to muse about yesterdays posting 🙂
I was reading some interviews with perfumers yesterday - just for fun - and praise myself lucky that im just a hobbyist blending for personal use. Meaning i can splash around as much oakmoss complete as i want without giving IFRA a nervous breakdown (although i sense many wouldn't mind them having one 🙂).

I didn't quite see myself as someone who would do many iterations to create something. Thought i didn't like that very much. But i think i do. So i figured if im about to make that a recurring pastime i should invest some time and bottles to make 10% dillutions.

On the other hand, dreaming up a recipe, fill-up the still and press play is something i also like. Hit or miss and you wont know until after a few months of maturing your brew. Think thats cool. Really cool.

And on a borrowed third hand, creating my own Ingredients, either extracting or distilling botanicals feels so rewarding when using them in a blend.
Now, sofar i've created quite a few bottles of rubbish. To weak, top notes ruined, base notes not extracted. They get their own shelf for now, and will be replaced in due time if their scent is something i would like to have access to in good quality. Like, i dont think i will spend time extracting mushrooms again. Even though the heavy concentrate smells like gravy from beef 100% accurate. Fun but useless.
More recent extractions however seem to become of decent quality. Guess old dog is learning, Which is kinda how i got to that oakmoss sidetrack earlier. Being happy owner of a vintage oakmoss that i consider a benchmark. First extraction was nice but not as bright and fresh as the reference. Latest extraction though, i dare say is just as fresh, overall a nice bouquet, good longevity (and 100% complete🫣).

Bottomline (so this post makes at least some sort of sense) i guess is you want to try all sorts of different things, because you never know what makes you tick 🤓

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Joy😋

Also got some Ferula Sumbul or Musk Root to extract. Keen to give that a try.

 

[Mr.P]

Joy😋
View attachment 56538

Also got some Ferula Sumbul or Musk Root to extract. Keen to give that a try.

I made a strong tincture of some root that I purchased that was sold as sumbul. Smell was quite a bit like Angelica and galbanum and it didn't match the descriptions I had been reading about this material and older books.

In Arctander's book on natural materials he states that two quite different materials have been traded as sumbul, with one coming to largely replace the other over time. One (rarer and the OG) has a milder aroma when dry, and a literal musk scent that develops in the presence of water; The other (more easily cultivated, recent substitute) has a stronger galbanum-like aroma even when dry. As far as I know this is the only kind I've ever smelled, very curious to hear what your specimen smells like to you

I wager it's still reasonable to call the galbanum like root a musk root because I'm guessing it has some chemicals in the same family as exaltolide (which is a musk found naturally in Angelica roots).

 

[MaxFromHolland]

I made a strong tincture of some root that I purchased that was sold as sumbul. Smell was quite a bit like Angelica and galbanum and it didn't match the descriptions I had been reading about this material and older books.

In Arctander's book on natural materials he states that two quite different materials have been traded as sumbul, with one coming to largely replace the other over time. One (rarer and the OG) has a milder aroma when dry, and a literal musk scent that develops in the presence of water; The other (more easily cultivated, recent substitute) has a stronger galbanum-like aroma even when dry. As far as I know this is the only kind I've ever smelled, very curious to hear what your specimen smells like to you

I wager it's still reasonable to call the galbanum like root a musk root because I'm guessing it has some chemicals in the same family as exaltolide (which is a musk found naturally in Angelica roots).

The root smells soft, warm, dry, powdery. The main note reminds me of wet cardboard for lack of a better association.
When i break a piece off, there is a mild and distant citrus note. There is nothing resembling resins.
As origin it states Asia.

 

[Mr.P]

The root smells soft, warm, dry, powdery. The main note reminds me of wet cardboard for lack of a better association.
When i break a piece off, there is a mild and distant citrus note. There is nothing resembling resins.
As origin it states Asia.

Sounds more likely to be authentic than what i got. I'm not sure how water figures into it - whether it's enough to merely wet it down or if you have to let it soak for a bit.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Sounds more likely to be authentic than what i got. I'm not sure how water figures into it - whether it's enough to merely wet it down or if you have to let it soak for a bit.

The musk scent is result from an interplay between resin and essential oil in the root. The resin is locked up in gom, which doesn't dissolve in ethanol. So you need to add a small percentage of water to the alcohol to weaken the gom structure. That way the ethanol can reach the resin. With 4% water, the gom gets weak but doesn't dissolve. You don't want it to dissolve because that would create some thick gel that totally inhibits extraction of the resin.
If you have access to old books you will probably see 96% alcohol used for that reason. That would be a nice verification btw.

 

[roflwaffle]

Interesting I assumed that 96% was generally default. Anhydrous is fickle to keep as such

 

[MaxFromHolland]

As a rough guess 10-15% of botanicals have a gom issue to some degree, within the roots and seeds group it could be up to 30%.
So it isn't unlikely that the 96% standard in perfumery and herbal medicine has it's roots😆 in dealing with the gom issue. Else why exactly 96% not 95, 90 whatever..

 

[roflwaffle]

As a rough guess 10-15% of botanicals have a gom issue to some degree, within the roots and seeds group it could be up to 30%.
So it isn't unlikely that the 96% standard in perfumery and herbal medicine has it's roots😆 in dealing with the gom issue. Else why exactly 96% not 95, 90 whatever..

Oh. azeotropic point of ethanol is 96%... Natural equilibrium. Iirc anyway

Edit: yea, 95.63% equilibrium, so not some coincidence, just where it all ends up without significant effort

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Oh. azeotropic point of ethanol is 96%... Natural equilibrium. Iirc anyway

Edit: yea, 95.63% equilibrium, so not some coincidence, just where it all ends up without significant effort

Ahh 🙂 that kills my assumption and discloses how much i slept @ school.. Nevertheless 96% is mentioned as sweetspot, and i cannot find anything else on the subject to either confirm or bust it.
Good to know the 4,37% of water is enough to make the resin accessible and no water is needed in pre-processing.

 

[roflwaffle]

Nature is lit. Would be kinda amusing if the ideal percent were not the same. So nature makes 96% but gotta re add and keep 92% for ideal extraction. So I guess a happy coincidence!

For some of my extractions I have added molecular sieves because I guessed that extra eth for those specifically would be more effective. Now it's yet to be seen if that's true and also if it's able to keep the wins upon actually using it. Mostly for things that form esters with even more water as output of equation, suck that water back up for presumably more rapid conversion over long enough time window. Gets beyond my knowledge and likely folly but no harm

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Nature is lit. Would be kinda amusing if the ideal percent were not the same. So nature makes 96% but gotta re add and keep 92% for ideal extraction. So I guess a happy coincidence!

For some of my extractions I have added molecular sieves because I guessed that extra eth for those specifically would be more effective. Now it's yet to be seen if that's true and also if it's able to keep the wins upon actually using it. Mostly for things that form esters with even more water as output of equation, suck that water back up for presumably more rapid conversion over long enough time window. Gets beyond my knowledge and likely folly but no harm

Even at 96% i notice this hazy layer over the crushed roots in the jar. So i can imagine this particular botanical to be a bit more unforgiving about the percentage than others perhaps.
I've put the jar on a stirrer to make things a bit easier for the eth.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Even at 96% i notice this hazy layer over the crushed roots in the jar. So i can imagine this particular botanical to be a bit more unforgiving about the percentage than others perhaps.
I've put the jar on a stirrer to make things a bit easier for the eth.

View attachment 56544

Just removed the stir bar, filtered and shelved the jar for the next 3-6 weeks to mature. The smell of wet cardboard is now more between dry red ceder and ambrette seed, with a hint of lime. Curious what magic will happen over the next couple of weeks.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Removing alcohol from 0,7 gram of vintage Benjui Tincture @ room temperature takes hours 🙂
Shape of bottle doesn't help but i don't want to lose a quarter of the 0,07 gram that probably remains, scraping it out of something shallow..

 

[roflwaffle]

Removing alcohol from 0,7 gram of vintage Benjui Tincture @ room temperature takes hours 🙂
Shape of bottle doesn't help but i don't want to lose a quarter of the 0,07 gram that probably remains, scraping it out of something shallow..

Yep, always a pain. Even with 50C heat, it still takes forever in jars like that, but I agree, the losses for letting it spread out and go fast due to scraping are also annoying. Or scrape, eth rinse, tilt so it all rolls into corner, re-evap, scrape is obnoxious. Someday I'll get/make some kinda rotovap, the eth reclamation is just icing on top.

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Since Tibetan project #2 is an intermediate version, i figured i could put 1ml of that with 5ml ethanol in a small spraybottle. Nice to figure out how it behaves as conventional perfume, projectionwise. That's for tomorrow though..

Well that next day i didn't like it at all.
Just gave it another try and found it to smell a lot more pleasant. Goes to show, things need time. It seems that the guaiac 'overdose' works well with alcohol.

Its quite annoying that i run into my own lack of skills. While i can smell the difference between #2 and #3, i cant yet seem to convert that in a logical next step.
I find the open and transition to the heart of #2 much more beautiful than #3 which is a bit harsh at times. But that one is overal more radiant.
So, guess i need a better balance between the guaiac and the ceder.
And guess some more that i could test that by mixing small amounts of #2 and #3 in various proportions, for that would mainly create variation between %guaiac and %ceder 🤔
Oh well, i'll just try..

Btw i swiped some #3 on my arm where this mornings patchouli blend still lingers, that combi is quite narcotic. But focus 😬

 

[MaxFromHolland]

Well that next day i didn't like it at all.
Just gave it another try and found it to smell a lot more pleasant. Goes to show, things need time. It seems that the guaiac 'overdose' works well with alcohol.

Its quite annoying that i run into my own lack of skills. While i can smell the difference between #2 and #3, i cant yet seem to convert that in a logical next step.
I find the open and transition to the heart of #2 much more beautiful than #3 which is a bit harsh at times. But that one is overal more radiant.
So, guess i need a better balance between the guaiac and the ceder.
And guess some more that i could test that by mixing small amounts of #2 and #3 in various proportions, for that would mainly create variation between %guaiac and %ceder 🤔
Oh well, i'll just try..

Btw i swiped some #3 on my arm where this mornings patchouli blend still lingers, that combi is quite narcotic. But focus 😬

This morning swiped #1 to study.
That one is maturing odd! Is is now some sort of upside-down frag.
Opening with tobacco, leather, a hint of pepper.
Then the oud notes fade to reveal the floral and incense, further in the drydown the honey joins. In the end there just a sweet incense note left.
In a way it isn't even that bad anymore. The oud notes with the peper are nice, and by the time you get to the 'been there-done that' stage, those notes are about to leave for something new.
Must try and figure out whats going on.

Just blended small amounts of #2 and #3 in a 50/50 ratio to compare with the individual. Hoping to discover which way the next iteration shld move.