F4R1d0uX
Resident Artisan
It's funy to try to understand and I can just tell you that you are thinking the right way...
Oud Distillation
- Thread starter Al Shareef Oudh
- Start date
It's funy to try to understand and I can just tell you that you are thinking the right way...
J
Jimmie Taylor
Guest
I think a very interesting question is:
How have you distillers started your oud business?
What have you worked before?
How have you distillers started your oud business?
What have you worked before?
Al Shareef Oudh
Master Perfumer
As I had promised to post regarding the properties of the Chinese A. Sinensis, I visited our archives and pulled out some of the data pertaining to this species. It is amazing how time passes when you are enjoying yourself.
Before I delve into the topic, I would like to quickly address something that is incorrectly becoming a form of measure. Recently regarding identification of oils and woods there is bad trend starting and that is utilising our human element as the ultimate litmus. For example how a persons skin reacts with something, or the sensation a particular scent gives a person, or the reaction they have from synthetics are being used to write off oils, woods, scent and so on. This is a very inaccurate and fluctuating method to assess scents.
The human body does not react always in every instance the same way even with known allergens. For example a person who is allergic to fish, they wont necessarily react to each and every fish they have, and when they do react, the symptoms and the actual reaction will not be identical to the previous time or the next time. Therefore to utilise such indicators as the litmus test on scent of oils, characteristic of woods, purity, region, etc is flawed from the outset.
Chinese eaglewood (Chinese name: Chenxiang) is a resinous wood from the tree of Aquilaria sinensis and has been widely used in traditional Chinese medicine for the treatment of stomachache, asthma, vomiting, etc. The essential oil of Chinese eaglewood is rich in sesquiterpenes with special skeletons. Some sesquiterpenes, such as agarospirol, baimuxinic acid, α-agarofuran, have been reported to possess sedative or hypnotic effect (Institute of Materia Medica of Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences. Modern Research on Chinese Herbal Medicine; Vol. 3).
The constituents of the Chinese A. Sinensis are similar to those of agarwood from A. agallocha and A. Malaccensis, which is mainly distributed in India or Malaysia.
In recent research on the oils of five different kinds of Chinese eaglewood, several sesquiterpenes, such as hinesol, nootkatone, valerenic acid, velleral, viridiflorol, etc., were found to be present in the oils by GC/MS analysis and were not present in some of the other species. ( Yang, Lawrence, Mei et al)
![[Ouddict.com] Oud Distillation](https://www.ouddict.com/attachments/gcms-of-chinese-a-sinensis-webp.310/ "[Ouddict.com] Oud Distillation")
Above is the GC/MS combined foot print after many tests on the Chinese A. Sinensis. From this research we can gather the main structural types of the sesquiterpenes in Chinese A. Sinensis. Below is the table that collates these structural types. After identifying these and the associated aromas we can then see how the Chinese A. Sinensis smells.
![[Ouddict.com] Oud Distillation](https://www.ouddict.com/attachments/structure-types-chinese-a-sinensis-webp.311/ "[Ouddict.com] Oud Distillation")
Agarofuran skeleton woody, nutty
Agrospirane skeleton spicy, peppery, woody
Elemophilane skeleton woody, burnt
Guaiane skeleton sweet, woody, balsam, peppery
Eudesmane skeleton waxy, sweet
Nor-sesquiterpene woody, burnt
From this scientific data we can clearly see that the Chinese A. Sinensis does not have any fecal, animalic, barn notes, Nor does it share primary similarities with Thai Crassna.
Before I delve into the topic, I would like to quickly address something that is incorrectly becoming a form of measure. Recently regarding identification of oils and woods there is bad trend starting and that is utilising our human element as the ultimate litmus. For example how a persons skin reacts with something, or the sensation a particular scent gives a person, or the reaction they have from synthetics are being used to write off oils, woods, scent and so on. This is a very inaccurate and fluctuating method to assess scents.
The human body does not react always in every instance the same way even with known allergens. For example a person who is allergic to fish, they wont necessarily react to each and every fish they have, and when they do react, the symptoms and the actual reaction will not be identical to the previous time or the next time. Therefore to utilise such indicators as the litmus test on scent of oils, characteristic of woods, purity, region, etc is flawed from the outset.
Chinese eaglewood (Chinese name: Chenxiang) is a resinous wood from the tree of Aquilaria sinensis and has been widely used in traditional Chinese medicine for the treatment of stomachache, asthma, vomiting, etc. The essential oil of Chinese eaglewood is rich in sesquiterpenes with special skeletons. Some sesquiterpenes, such as agarospirol, baimuxinic acid, α-agarofuran, have been reported to possess sedative or hypnotic effect (Institute of Materia Medica of Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences. Modern Research on Chinese Herbal Medicine; Vol. 3).
The constituents of the Chinese A. Sinensis are similar to those of agarwood from A. agallocha and A. Malaccensis, which is mainly distributed in India or Malaysia.
In recent research on the oils of five different kinds of Chinese eaglewood, several sesquiterpenes, such as hinesol, nootkatone, valerenic acid, velleral, viridiflorol, etc., were found to be present in the oils by GC/MS analysis and were not present in some of the other species. ( Yang, Lawrence, Mei et al)
Above is the GC/MS combined foot print after many tests on the Chinese A. Sinensis. From this research we can gather the main structural types of the sesquiterpenes in Chinese A. Sinensis. Below is the table that collates these structural types. After identifying these and the associated aromas we can then see how the Chinese A. Sinensis smells.
Agarofuran skeleton woody, nutty
Agrospirane skeleton spicy, peppery, woody
Elemophilane skeleton woody, burnt
Guaiane skeleton sweet, woody, balsam, peppery
Eudesmane skeleton waxy, sweet
Nor-sesquiterpene woody, burnt
From this scientific data we can clearly see that the Chinese A. Sinensis does not have any fecal, animalic, barn notes, Nor does it share primary similarities with Thai Crassna.
F4R1d0uX
Resident Artisan
Ammar
True Ouddict
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Oudamberlove
Member
My upper hand is very sensitive, some ouds can be applied with no reaction, whereas others will cause contact dermatitis. So now I just swipe on my palm, but I always wash my hands first, I don't want the oud aroma to mix with any smell left on my hands from eating lunch, or handling metal coins, etc.
What bums me out is that sometimes I place a swipe of some special oud to cozy up to, then my mother-in-law starts cooking a meal with a strong smell like garlic and ginger. I just wasted some precious oud🙁
What bums me out is that sometimes I place a swipe of some special oud to cozy up to, then my mother-in-law starts cooking a meal with a strong smell like garlic and ginger. I just wasted some precious oud🙁
Ammar
True Ouddict
I love bro-science! I’ve always fascinated by this phenomenon and how a fictitious statement can be passed to whole community and generation as a fact faster and easier than a solid research-based scholar approach. There are two types of bro-science, one whom the original poster clearly shows that his conclusion is based on personal experience but the fans, the admirers, and the worshippers take it as an easily digestible fact even to levels that lead to change someone’s beliefs simply overnight, you would not able to establish this state of belief with the strongest evidences. Other type is when the original poster intentionally tries to deliver a hidden agenda in the form of strong fact-like statement that falsely misleads the followers who believe in that person for the sake of his benefits.
Fascinating…
Fascinating…
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Al Shareef Oudh
Master Perfumer
@PEARL
I agree that the body can become allergic to A allergen, and that was not the point I was making. You give the example of synthetics, this is a very interesting topic, simply because allergens are not all the same and neither are all synthetics. Is there a likelihood that the body shows allergic reaction to X synthetic material? very much possible. Can the body become allergic to all synthetic material? there are hundreds if not thousands of synthetic materials all around the home...
The reason this type of assessment is flawed is because at a chemical level compounds are compounds whether made in a lab or in nature. The reality is unless the person's allergic reactions to a specific chemicals has been identified, then again it is flawed to assume that because a person is allergic to one compound made in the lab, then they are allergic to all compounds made in the lab. Since not all compounds are made the same...i think you can see where I am going with this.
Let me share a couple of items here Limonene is a chemical found in many essential oils there is approx 65- 70.0% of it in Orange Oil. It is a known allergen, a skin sensitiser to be exact. The EU classify it as the worst type of environmental pollutant; and yet it is entirely natural. Another example is Ylang Oil totally natural but it contains Para Cresyl Methyl Ether a chemical recently classed as a possible carcinogen.
It might be that the person is allergic to a certain natural compound in an oil which is developed through the distillation process, but they might think it is synthetic based on their allergic assumption, that is why it is a flawed method.
@Ammar
Habibi I am not following you there. Are you referring to the claim that A.Sinensis has animalic and barn properties or something else?
I agree that the body can become allergic to A allergen, and that was not the point I was making. You give the example of synthetics, this is a very interesting topic, simply because allergens are not all the same and neither are all synthetics. Is there a likelihood that the body shows allergic reaction to X synthetic material? very much possible. Can the body become allergic to all synthetic material? there are hundreds if not thousands of synthetic materials all around the home...
The reason this type of assessment is flawed is because at a chemical level compounds are compounds whether made in a lab or in nature. The reality is unless the person's allergic reactions to a specific chemicals has been identified, then again it is flawed to assume that because a person is allergic to one compound made in the lab, then they are allergic to all compounds made in the lab. Since not all compounds are made the same...i think you can see where I am going with this.
Let me share a couple of items here Limonene is a chemical found in many essential oils there is approx 65- 70.0% of it in Orange Oil. It is a known allergen, a skin sensitiser to be exact. The EU classify it as the worst type of environmental pollutant; and yet it is entirely natural. Another example is Ylang Oil totally natural but it contains Para Cresyl Methyl Ether a chemical recently classed as a possible carcinogen.
It might be that the person is allergic to a certain natural compound in an oil which is developed through the distillation process, but they might think it is synthetic based on their allergic assumption, that is why it is a flawed method.
@Ammar
Habibi I am not following you there. Are you referring to the claim that A.Sinensis has animalic and barn properties or something else?
Ammar
True Ouddict
@Al Shareef Oudh,
Nope, just in general...I usually get excited when I see some research papers and scientific approach LOL! and how it is underrated. But since you’ve brought this, what is your opinion from experience?
Nope, just in general...I usually get excited when I see some research papers and scientific approach LOL! and how it is underrated. But since you’ve brought this, what is your opinion from experience?
JohnH
True Ouddict
Mr.P
oud<3er
Why would impure oud be more likely to elicit allergic sensitization than pure oud oil? There are plenty of naturally ocurring sensitizing agents. Maybe this isn't what you mean exactly?
Allergies aside, the human nose is an amazing thing! Check this out:
https://www.nature.com/news/human-nose-can-detect-1-trillion-odours-1.14904
Allergies aside, the human nose is an amazing thing! Check this out:
https://www.nature.com/news/human-nose-can-detect-1-trillion-odours-1.14904
Mr.P
oud<3er
Ok - your post was hard to interpret. I believe what you are actually saying is "it is possible that a certain person might in fact be a kind of DOP (or whatever) detector if they happen to coincidentally be allergic to that one substance (and not to any naturally occurring substances in oud oil) so you can't just assume such a claim is nonsense without additional information"
Mr.P
oud<3er
Yes - I have seen several reports of allergic sensitization to oud at the old BN thread. Of course it is not possible to know what exactly they were sensitized too. There are many potential sensitizers in naturals - oak moss, jasmine, rose, citrus oils, etc.. I don't know a lot about this but I know it is a documented phenomenon.
Ammar
True Ouddict
@Mr.P,
Yes that is what @PEARL have meant I guess. You need a person who knows exactly that he is allergic to certain synthetics that can be used in oud adulteration. Possible exceptions are cross reaction which is rare, or a newly developed allergic reaction induced by one of the natural components in oud which is also rare and can be excluded by the different use of other pure oud oils without getting allergic reaction, unless it persists with the use of pure oud oils then a new allergy can be assumed maybe as in the case of Faizal’s friend.
If I’m allergic to peanut I simply assume the product I consumed contains peanut if I got allergic reaction, but again it needs that the person KNOWS what he is allergic to. Also not getting allergic reaction does NOT mean the oil is not adulterated due to the possibility of the use of different synthetic substances.
If you have multisubstances-induced allergy then it becomes more blurry, although the sensitivity getting higher the specificity becomes lower.
I hope it is not complicated as PEARL post LOL!...
Yes that is what @PEARL have meant I guess. You need a person who knows exactly that he is allergic to certain synthetics that can be used in oud adulteration. Possible exceptions are cross reaction which is rare, or a newly developed allergic reaction induced by one of the natural components in oud which is also rare and can be excluded by the different use of other pure oud oils without getting allergic reaction, unless it persists with the use of pure oud oils then a new allergy can be assumed maybe as in the case of Faizal’s friend.
If I’m allergic to peanut I simply assume the product I consumed contains peanut if I got allergic reaction, but again it needs that the person KNOWS what he is allergic to. Also not getting allergic reaction does NOT mean the oil is not adulterated due to the possibility of the use of different synthetic substances.
If you have multisubstances-induced allergy then it becomes more blurry, although the sensitivity getting higher the specificity becomes lower.
I hope it is not complicated as PEARL post LOL!...
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galaxy
Oud Beginner
I've had a similar experience too over the last year or so. Never used to have a reaction but now some oils make my skin (I usually swipe the back of my hand) go red and itchy. On the plus side it's helped my finances a little.
Ammar
True Ouddict
I wish I got oud allergy LOL!
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Al Shareef Oudh
Master Perfumer
You hit the nail on the head, synthetics are many and these open brush 'methods' that have become acceptable forms for identifying quality must be removed from the libraries of oudh discourse. Surely as a community we can come up with better ways of identifying adulterated oudh than relying on allergic reactions to occur, which itself could be from compounds in oudh or compounds added to oudh.
to your previous question, our experience for Chinese A.Sinensis is inline with the research. For Chinese A.Sinensis to develop heavey barn, fecal or rotten profile something has to be tweaked in the distillation process soaked for a long period will develop heavy barn and rotten notes as will delaying curing.
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J
Jimmie Taylor
Guest
Maybe it can also appear when somone uses a new soap or shampoo.
And then the skin is more sensitive.
Or really dry skin after being in a pool or sauna.
And then the skin is more sensitive.
Or really dry skin after being in a pool or sauna.
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