I think the subjectivity of scent perception is an important thing to focus on here. Let's not get into personal attacks, etc. that is something we cannot resolve in a public forum.

More interestingly, if Ensar cannot distinguish a short ceramic soak Malaysian oil from a long plastic soak Thai oil, what does that tell us about OUR ability to assess the purity, origin, quality, etc. of agarwood oil? I mean, if someone with as much experience as Ensar has trouble with this, how can we possibly rely on our own noses!?

Now, I have to say in my limited experience I can detect the effects of some of the changes in variables that the distillers are applying. For example the 3 bio chan ouds from Adam. They are all from the same wood but each has a very distinct odor profile. One of them smells like a Borneo oil. The others more Thai. I have some samples of wood chips labeled as from one region but there are at least three very distinct odor profiles among the chips. I wonder how the variation in the scent of chips from a single tree or region compares to the variation that exists between different regions? To what degree distillation and soaking methods might impact and even overwhelm geographic factors? Being a rank novice relative to taha, Ensar, Adam, A shareef, of course i really have no idea. I've smelled a few dozen chips and oils... trying to make sense out of all the complex scents... yet I am such a novice and have zero ancestral knowledge to draw on.
 
@PEARL
I prescribe you a double swipe of Oud to alleviate your inner conflicts😀

I'm a Realist not a Purist.
People will say all sorts of things about Oud, from raw materials, distillations, costs, marketing, reviews or no reviews, etc.
That's precisely why we have forums, to hear what other people have to say, and to offer our 2 cents.
Everything written will undergo scrutiny.
Some have chosen not to participate anymore, and some lurkers will never even join.
We're one big family, and you know what they say, "you can choose your friends"😛

We have Moderators 😎 to keep these forums in check, if anyone gets outta-line their post will be deleted, and they could even be banned!😱
 
By the way Mandeel... please post the GCMS report. I don't understand why it hasn't been made public for everyone to share. I haven't seen it myself and am curious as I have a bottle of Sultani.

However, while I have my differences with Ensar due to recent events, I don't doubt the integrity of his oils. Not making this report public only fuels rumours... so please go ahead and show us.
 
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I am not much of an oud expert, but I don't think one needs to be to comment on human nature. This area of perfumery attracts nerds and nerdy vendors, and since I have been following this for a decade I have noticed quite a bit of passion about the topics. I appreciate cultural and religious references, but at the end of the day we are all human beings and should govern ourselves according to basic human principles. I really do not like vendors subtley downing other vendors. In the States, we call it being a jerk. I have read the sites, blogs and competing advertisements, and I think it is unfortunate. There is a culture of poo pooing the other guy. And yes, all of us notice that sometimes some of those in this business are coming off as arrogant jerks and can post things that make him/her come off like a jerk, even though said person is a mix of jerk and very cool. But, as we all see on posts, no one is immune to emotional responses. I propose that people stop playing a charade and just be straight forward if one finds something off color, like @PEARL finally did . Oh, and also stop being jerks to each other. This is basic human respect. Sorry to come off high and mighty, but I really hate the idea of this turning into Basenotes, an amazing gem we lost.
 
Have to agree SantalClaus... and we have been trying hard to keep this forum clean and friendly, but unfortunately for that to happen there must be mutual respect which I don't see. I can't blame a vendor for defending themselves when doubt is cast on their products in a very subtle, but obvious way.

Personally I don't think vendors should review another vendors oil as there is an obvious conflict of interest and we have seen how this ALWAYS ends as in Basenotes. The only exception is if a vendor is blatantly misrepresenting an oud to unsuspecting customers and there is a general consensus amongst other experts that this is the case. Or if the vendor has proof.

Unfortunately there are some who want to keep it that way and not have a truly open discussion. But I can safely say that this forum won't close and won't bend to this kind of tactic. We will make sure that there are alternative voices where people who want to really learn about Oud can come and do so without being driven in a certain direction for commercial interests. By the way, there is nothing wrong with declared commercial interests. We have vendors on here who make an honest living and are open and transparent. It's when those interests are couched in a way that isn't obvious when problems occur.

However, I want to remind EVERYONE that we cannot allow discussions to get personal and name calling and isn't tolerated here as it is simply offensive and detracts from the possibly legitimate point that one is trying to make.
 
Guys let's do it in a simple way : a crap should be named a crap and a gem should be called a gem supporting evidence of course.
If people cannot give their true personal opinion about an oil in a respectful way I do not see the need of this kind of forum!
We are all agree that Ensar's oils cannot be considered All like legends and All Al Shareef ouds cannot be promoted like a Thai crap...
I remembered a very very old post on Basenotes written by Igor01 or Thomas I think telling that the true reviews are available by pm only so please guys let's keep the oud reviews section alive and as honest and useful as possible!
Wish you ALL a happy new year
 
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@PEARL,
OPINION is OK, BRO science is NOT OK. Establishing fact-like statements with confidence sometimes based on single distillation experiment or subjective interpretation of burned patch of similar wood could be faraway from reality, and the limitation of such approach needs to be addressed more clearly. Same goes to built-up experience...for example, you can find physicians with many years of knowledge mostly based on experience rather than scientific data are skewed away from objectivity although they are still functional.
 
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So al shareef - in your experience what are some variables that have a clear / predictable impact on oud odor profile? Soaking for example - we have heard some conflicting things about the notes that fermentation of different lengths has on the odor profile of ouds.

Can you share any experiences with different soaking methods / times and the impact on either yield or aroma or both? Do you think subtle things like the material if he soaking vessel or particular type of water can really have a big impact?
 
@Ammar OK. But is it the interpretation of investigational practical impracticality conversely, in which the derivative inverse often correlates exponentially?

I get you brotha...I get you 😛
 
@Ammar OK. But is it the interpretation of investigational practical impracticality conversely, in which the derivative inverse often correlates exponentially?

@PEARL
Can you please and in brief explain your difficult to understand reply to my post since I noticed that there is a copy/paste of your reply at gaharu by Ensar (SOTD post #547) which he either fully understood what you meant or your post was some sort of mockery toward my post being gibberish or not related to your original post so you replied with meaningless phrase reflecting my meaningless post and Ensar got the hidden message?

Thank you...
 
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Your post was clear Ammar, not sure what pearl's post and echo at gaharu.com is all about.
 
So al shareef - in your experience what are some variables that have a clear / predictable impact on oud odor profile? Soaking for example - we have heard some conflicting things about the notes that fermentation of different lengths has on the odor profile of ouds.

Can you share any experiences with different soaking methods / times and the impact on either yield or aroma or both? Do you think subtle things like the material if he soaking vessel or particular type of water can really have a big impact?

To keep it brief, soaking can be used to aid in two different aspects of the oil. Yield and Abundance of known oudh compounds.

The Yield,

soaking alters the wood morphology, causing the cell wall to break down easier for the oils to escape. If we were to imagine the oil pockets inside the wood as little sacks, the normal distillation process will force out the oils from this sack, with parts still remaining in the sack. When the actual sack breaks apart all the oil leaks out. This assist the yield.

When every bit of oil from the wood is distilled out, this also adds to the quality of the oil, increasing the abundance of the compounds that give oudh it's oudhyness. Such oils smell and measure in gcms to have more favourable compounds.

The graph below produced by Veronica Alexandar Jok et al, at the university of technology in Shah Alam Malaysia, demonstrates that the yield increases with the right amount of soaking. The vast majority of the data places that duration of 'perfect' soaking for yield at 14 days.

[Ouddict.com] Oud Distillation

Abundance of Known Compounds,

Abundance is a term utilised in measuring how many of a specific compound exists in the oil. When soaking goes beyond 21 days, the known compounds that contribute to the oudhyness decreases but other compounds increase. Oudh oils have been known to have between 30-100+ different compounds in them, depending on how long they have been soaked, the temperatures that they have been cooked in, and the length of the cook. for example according to Jutarut Pornpunyapat et al, changing the temperature from 80 C - 120 C nearly doubles the number of positive contributing compounds in A.Crassna samples and also the quantity of each compound is increased significantly. Please see the attached tables.
[Ouddict.com] Oud Distillation

As such it can clearly be seen that soaking can be used to increase the yield, manipulate the abundance % of compounds i.e longer soak reduces the abundance % ultimately changing the scent profile.
 
Continue to my prior post...
There is also difference between experience and gifted ability. I was just reading and only if it is true that Roja Dove has the ability to discern over 800 scent notes blindfolded. This is a gift that doesn't come mainly by practice, instead it is an inherited ability that needs highly developed and specialized areas of brain with exceptional neuronal connections only few people have the luck to have it, and only partly the environment and practice will lead to flourish it. Few are prodigy like Mozart, Beethoven, Mendelssohn...I recall reading that Paganini at certain time early in his life was never seen practicing on violin to the rest of his life. How we know these few pepole have this ability? Because they have showed us their impressive capability! I haven't seen a person with such olfactory gift here or anywhere. Maybe somewhere but not here or there, so mistakes are always possible and people need to know their limitations.
 
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@5MeO @Oudamberlove

A couple of days ago post #524 from the thread below on Gaharu was sent to me by a number of different people requesting me to comment on it https://gaharu.com/showthread.php?406-SOTD&p=5400&viewfull=1#post5400

One point that I have made many times before, and for reminders sake I make again is that we are all human and humans are limited beings who constantly make mistakes. For those of us who follow the Islamic tradition there is a famous saying of the Holy Prophet peace be upon him transmitted by Al- Tirmidhi that mentions “Every son of Adam sins, and the best of those who sin are those who repent.” Humans make mistakes due to our limited nature; having a bad day, slip of judgement, weakness in our senses or an array of other things can cause us to misjudge decisions in life let alone assessing someone else’s oil purely based on human conviction.

Our world-famous Al Shareef II Oudh Oil that was distilled by us in the year 2012 in Kelantan Malaysia was distilled from Wild Malaysian Oudh trees - not Thai and most definitely not relocated saplings. The wood was selected by myself as with all our distillations and cleaned, dried and pulverised. Our aim? To bring forth to the consumer the defying scent that haunts the Oudh hunters -"the scent of the tree". The scent of the very tree that has been fighting off fungal attacks for hundreds of years - the scent that represents the spirit of the tree.

Dr W.S (Kyarazen) describes the wood we used in this oil; “ In my collection of fragrant woods, there is a precious block of north malaysian heartwood that I cherish tremendously, it is one of the very few woods, when heated, reminds me of oud. This wood probably came from a huge wild tree over a century old, as the heart of the tree starts to rot and crumble, together with the compaction with the tree’s growth, there is a detectable hint of “barnyard”, notes that are given off when wood fibres of the agarwood tree ferment, in this case, not in pots or plastic tubs, but in the heart of the living tree. When I found out that Alshareef II was made of north malaysian woods, I knew it was definitely from this type and class of material. The raw wood is not easy to come by, not to even think of putting it into a distillation pot! This is not your typical “malaysian oud”, instead the scent of the very heart of this oud, reminds me of the core of the classical and famed early generation Kalakassi 80 from ASAQ.” Ref https://www.kyarazen.com/alshareef-ii-journey-to-the-heart-of-oud/#

The techniques that we at Al Shareef Oudh have in our manuals, is not a collation of the experience of 5-10 years of a self-taught individual it is the collation of the knowledge, experience and experiments of many generations of artists. I was born into a household where oudh was part of daily life, part of business, and an integral part of honouring of our guests, my sensory data stretches generations not 10 years. We employ those experiences and our innovations on a daily basis to bring unique art work in the form of oils to our discerning clients. As such I am not going to be offended if a person with 2, 5 or 10 years untrained experience gets struck between the eye with one of our oils and mistook its origin.

After the wood was pulverised, it was soaked at room temperature in burnay clay pots (not blue plastic drums, in fact we don’t have any blue drums at any of our facilities) for two weeks (not 4 months, not six months - not any months) and on the beginning of the third week the cooking began. When wood of such high quality oil and resin content goes into the pot, one of the important considerations a distiller has in mind is to ensure that they run an efficient distillation life cycle. It is for this purpose that we chose 2 weeks of soaking, when wood is soaked for this length of time the Agarwood Oil Yield increases as a result of changes in cell morphology, however if the soaking is extended to 21+ days the yield drops due to the acids that are introduced into the matter as part of the fermentation process. This is a bit of information that will be helpful to other vendors as well, especially when dealing with high quality woods like that which went into Al Shareef II. Our experiences were confirmed by research conducted by some friends at the University of Technology in Shah Alam, and published findings by Veronica Alexander Jok et al - these are some of the considerations that go into why we do things the way we do.

The old age of the tree, the decay, the decomposition and fibre compaction over time had a natural sweet barn imbedded in the fibres of this wood. That sweet barn-cheese note was present in the decaying tree even as we fell it. We have samples of the wood that went into this pot, as we do with others, when the wood is slightly moistened many of the notes that is present in Al Shareef II become apparent.

We cooked this oil at variable low temperatures ranging from 40 C – 80 C. This is why we mentioned in our product launch explanation that it is an active oil (https://www.alshareefoudh.com/product-detail.php?product_id=11) distilled at low heat to preserve its nutrients. Within the essential oil philosophy, the lower the temperature at which the oil is cooked the more of the natural plants nutrients make it to the final oil. The technique of varying low temperatures for cooking agarwood is proven by our research to be most effective with Malaysian woods, and because our aim was to retain the raw scent profile of the decaying tree this worked best for us. The Table below produced by Nurlaila Ismail et al also illustrates the data collated from a sample of Malaysian wood cooked at 40 60 80 C and the abundance in percentage of the 5 most important compounds that contribute towards the oudh properties ;


As you can see the varying temperature allows an increase in the different chemical compounds, therefore varying the temperature will extract the compounds from the wood, that otherwise would not be possible under a set temperature. For further reading please refer to ANALYSIS OF HIGH QUALITY AGARWOOD OIL CHEMICAL COMPOUNDS BY MEANS OF SPME/GC-MS AND Z-SCORE TECHNIQUE

Our experience and research together with third party research establishes that with the techniques at our disposal we can draw a wide range of scents from Malaysian woods. Malaysian woods being one of the most complete oudh wood can in the hands of the right person produce a myriad of scent profiles.

Once the oil was cooked, we utilised our innovative method of curing the oil which is very different to any other curing method utilise by others. The general process with other distillers for curing is aerating the oil for a few days, then possibly lamping it or sun lighting for a few days. Our method is different. For example one of our techniques is we cure our oils in water, the bottles of oil have a trap placed on the top and then the bottles are placed in our curing chambers, through this method we can retain the profiles we want and ‘evaporate’ those that we dislike. We can also control how much moisture remains in the oil and many other fine tunings can happen in this phase.

I did not respond to this post immediately, though many friends and clients would have liked me to do so. I wanted the dust storm to settle so it doesn’t become a slinging match of ‘he said’ and ‘I said’. I afford my brother the benefit of the doubt and I have shared the facts regarding the what, how and why of Al Shareef II, and whilst we are talking about Al Shareef II, the complexity of this oil has perplexed many and it is for this reason many clients who have this oil hold it dearly.
It is the oil worn by Shuyukh of the Al Otaiba clan in Dawadmi, it is the oil of choice for the Shaykh of Dowsary, in Wadi Al Dawaasir and many other statesmen in the gulf whom I won’t name here. These are people who have enjoyed Oudh in their tradition for hundreds of years and can easily discern if something isn’t right.

In Conclusion as humans the experiences we hold impact how we perceive our surroundings, similarly the experiences any individual or vendor has with regards to oudh oils and the possibilities with them impacts how they view oils and artistic expressions outside of their individual experience, it is like the experience of a tadpole in a small backyard pond, compared to that of a dolphin in the ocean. What is a daily occurrence in the life of the dolphin is not imaginable to the tadpole.

I would also like to make another correction that was posted on Gaharu (link) post #128 regarding another of our products, Al Shareef Oudh has only ever released one Al Ghaliyah not two.

I will post regarding the Chinese Sinensis, and Sinensis from other regions later, in that post I will also include details on how the Chinese distil the Sinensis compared to somewhere like Laos. As per our approach this will be research data, not someone’s words, Sinensis has most similarities to A.agallocha and A.Malaccensis, and not as many commonalities with A.Crassna. There are many research findings on Chinese Sinensis and one that discusses this topic in detail is by Wen-Li Mei et al.

I hope the moderators don't get upset but just to close off this response we would like to announce to all you good people a special promotion on Al Shareef II, with the promotion code ItsNotAThai, we will refund you $60 USD back. Offer until 6th of Jan 2017.


Watch this space.
enjoyed reading that and love the explanation and information. you seem to have loads more experience than the poster on gaharu
 
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