Oud Distillation

[Mr.P]

This is an interesting point! The scent of burning agar wood and for that matter agarwood oil is so distinct from the scent of the raw wood itself with the exception (in my limited experience) of kyara. I recall back when I was first learning about oud, reading that the unique fragrance of burning oud is more a result of chemical reactions during combustion rather than trapped pre-existing molecules being released intact. I mean obviously it's a little bit of both, what I read was that the aroma present in burning oud are not actually present in the raw wood itself. As you state the captivating aroma is due in large part to the formation and breaking of chemical bonds during combustion.


I have heard that something similar happens with sandalwood oil. When sandalwood oil is distilled at low temperature for very long periods of time for example two weeks or more the result is an oil that is much more chemically complex and interesting from an olfactory point of view. Again the importance of the formation and breaking of chemical bonds during distillation.


I actually like the idea of an extract presenting the subtle scent of unheated wood, but I can see how this might not be a successful product.


I find it interesting that kyara is an exception to this. This seems like a material from which you could make a solvent extract that would really have the notes that were also present during combustion. But I suppose this experiment will not likely be done on any scale anytime soon and if it were it would be unbelievably out of reach for someone like myself.

 

[Mr.P]

I read on a blog post somewhere (Taha I think) that all barnyard notes in oud were a result of fermentation / soaking prior to distillation. When I burn oud chips from certain regions, however, I get quite pronounced barnyard scent. So much so that my wife gets a bit annoyed if I "barn up" the whole house by burning some Lao or certain Malaysian ouds. Those notes can't be due to fermentation. Any thoughts?

 

[Faizal_p]

I would say some species contain this natural barn, also the length of time the resination has been present in the tree, this could cause natural decay within the tree itself, especially if it's an injury site. We've had some amazing Hindi oils distilled, no fermentation or fungus but still have an animalic opening to them. Also noticed it in Sumatran micro... The barn from fermentation I would say is quite pungent, generally present within the lower grade Hindi oils, done normally to maximise the yield

 

[Jdhawk50]

The KZ85 has me thinking (and sniffing). What are the chances of someone experimenting with solvent extraction of agarwood? This seems like an untapped source of good smells to me and I would love to experience solvent extracts of ouds from different regions. I imagine there are all kinds of challenges, including the fact that many extracts might end up as solids. Al shareef, any thoughts?

Mr P, my friend has done just that. He used our burnt borneo sinking wood to extract the left over resin/oil. I believe he added other high quality ingredient to make an attar. It was pretty weak so we need to tweak it a bit. We were thinking of useing raw wood next. Let me find it and I will get back with you on it. Not sure his whole process though.

 

[Russian Adam]

I also have experienced oud wood with a slightly animalic scent when heated…


However, in my opinion it is not at all common…


We have distilled plenty of oud wood unsoaked and all of those oils completely and totally lacking animalic/funky/fermented aspect… this tells me a lot…


Any one tried any oils cooked from unsoaked agarwood that are super funky and have a clear fermented notes?

 

[Al Shareef Oudh]

Mr.P , Faisal I am with you guys on this, there are oudh woods from India, Bangladesh, Laos, Malaysia that will give a barn/animal/decay note even when put in the pot with minimal soaking. Therefore the claim that banr scents are exclusively associated with soaking/fermenting is a unfounded narrative. Something that is however interesting regarding none soaked cooking, and that is the lack of deep oudh oils trapped in wood fibres, between wood fibres and resin walls, and inside resin chambers. That is why most un soaked oils are airy and flowery, as they are extracting more of the volatilizes and less of the stables.


Secondly, if the tree is freshly dropped and not allowed to dry and is cooked as is, this type of cooking can also give a more pronounced decay scent as the decaying parts of the wood are captured in their true rawness and not dried out and made pretty.


The simplest type of distillation is not soaking, it produces simple nice airy flowery 'oud' oil. However in reality there is little true oud oil in those and more of the carrier wood oils.

 

[Faizal_p]

Yes I agree regarding the soaking, after having gcms done on a few oils and comparing effects of different soak times, we found longer soaking (to a point) allowed more aldehydes to be released. Yes sesquiterpines like agarofuran, eudesmol etc are more sought after and can be released from zero soak/ low temp but aldehydes add a roundness to Oud, most people may know about chanel no 5 and the abundance of synthetic aldehydes which create the depth and gourmandness. Agarwood contains these and I believe ketones which can really add that 3rd dimension. It's an area we're still researching and definitely very interesting.

 

[Russian Adam]

I would love to experience some oud oils cooked from totally unsoaked agarwood with a clear and intense barny aspect.


So far I have tried none.


This makes me think that those notes are a result of traditional soaking.


I also done experiments with cold and hot soaking, it helped to soften the wood and bring out all the compounds however the aroma was totally lacking any barnyard aspects.


This again make me think that funky notes are additional notes, not the original notes from agarwood. Just a result of fermentation. Again this is generally speaking.


I would love to see someone collecting the batch of woods with a very animalic aroma when heated and distilling it totally unsoaked. To experience such oil would be very interesting.

 

[Russian Adam]

I see soaking just as ageing to be an optional choice … not the absolute golden rule …


There are countless number ( discovered and undiscovered ) of technics to soften the wood fibbers and soaking is just one of them …


You can open up the spores of agarwood by other means and the wood will be totally unsoaked but may reach the same or higher level of depth and richness just as the wood soaked for many month yet it will lack the barnyard aspect…


Don’t get me wrong though, I personally love the funk in oud oils… however I see it as a beautiful addition… not something originally present in the wood (again in MOST cases, NOT all)

 

[Russian Adam]

We have cooked exactly the same raw materials in the past… unsoaked, soaked and soaked for quite long…


This was Bio Chan Co series…


I personally loved the oil soaked for longest period of time…


However, we found that the most customers preferred the oil that was totally unsoaked…


I think Mr. P was one of them so perhaps he can compare the oils and share with us was it due to the quality of the scent profile (more bright, airy, lively) or just his personal preference…


It makes me think of Bananas… No one will argue that dark yellow bananas are sweeter then green ones…


However, some (including me) prefer green bananas over the ripe ones… Just a meter of taste…


As for the oud oil I personally would go for soaked ones hihihi…

 

[Mr.P]

To me, the unsoaked ko-chan oil had a certain deep woody richness that reminded me of oils from Borneo. The soaked oils lacked this note, and instead had some kind of sharp note that was a little like frankincense but also a little fermented / sour smelling (but not in a bad way - sour like tart fruit, not sour like vinegar). Honestly, to me, the unsoaked smelled more complex and multi-faceted, more woody; the soaked oils were more simple and fruity. I can see someone preferring either one (kind of, as you say, like bananas). I think it will be nice to see how these oils develop as they mature - maybe some other differences will become apparent.


Strangely, the chan-yan (also not soaked) has more in common with the soaked bio-ko-chan oils (1 and 2) than it does with the unsoaked oil, at least to my nose.


I I enjoy all of these oils - really glad I managed to get my hands on full bottles of these as I rarely am able to invest in full bottles!

 

[Russian Adam]

"Strangely, the chan-yan (also not soaked) has more in common with the soaked bio-ko-chan oils (1 and 2) than it does with the unsoaked oil, at least to my nose.â€


yeh… I agree… this perhaps due to the condenser…


Chan 1 and another oil from the same farm called Sam Yan were both cooked using old style stainless steel condenser.


This type of condenser usually brings out “sharp" notes, as you described it. I would rather call them intense notes.


So Chan Yan was unsoaked, but cooked using the same old style stainless condenser. So this is perhaps one of the reasons why it smells more like the soaked oils.


Your favourite unsoaked Chan Ko on the other hands was cooked on a pyrex glass, upwards condenser. This type of condenser brings out more airy and bright character as well as a certain deep woody richness as you described it…

 

[Al Shareef Oudh]

@Adam, maybe try cooking Indian wood from lower assam, totally no soaking then maybe you will find what you are looking for. Secondly, try Malaccensis species from Kelantan area, cook it straight after falling, and cook it after drying, again you will experience the barn without any soaking.


Your observation are valid, but for a limited data set. Hence why you associate barn with soaking. As I previously mentioned barn is not exclusive to soaking and hopefully if you try the above you will see for yourself.


Mr.P I haven't tried the oil you are mentioning however you are absolutely right with regards some oils having a woody richness even if they are not soaked. There are two reasons for this, the type of wood used and the type of oil contained within that wood. However this scent is different to the resinous oudhy scent that comes from the depth of the wood.


Preference is always going to be the pivotal aspect in all subjective things such as scents. However the methodology is objective ; oils hide in wood pores and pockets, they need to come out, and to use the most natural way to get them out is soaking. Soaking can be done in many hygiene creative ways that does not allow fermentation. One I will share here, that is cooling warming. When soaking the woods, you can cool down the water and then let it get back to room temp then cook it down again. This helps in breaking the wood fibres and releasing the oils. Many people confuse wood softness with the degradation of the pockets, this isnt the case. There are other ways to get those deep oils out however they are a very long and tedious process.

 

[Russian Adam]

Definitely would love to try if I have a chance…


I hope no one misunderstood me…


Barnyard can be present in some woods, no doubt about that…


Just as you mentioned it is only specific wood from a specific regions… Not something very common…


However, funky/barny/smelly =) oils are very common… from any regions you can imagine… Thailand, Burma, Indonesia even, leave alone Lao and India…


So most of that funkiness (99%) is a result of fermentation ONLY… and 1% for the oils cooked from the wood that naturally has that aspect present…

 

[Mr.P]

The one thing I will add is that my wife, who is very (overly) sensitive to barnyard scents, finds almost all oud wood to smell barn-like when heated on coals. An exception is kyara and some Vietnamese woods and one or two of the rikkoku woods. That's what got me started on this... Every time I burn some oud, she says "smells like a barn in here, wish you wouldn't burn that stuff!"


I am burning Cambodian, Indonesian, Malaysian woods in general and a couple "mystery" woods. Kind of drives me nuts because I have to burn the oud when she is not around or else she complains!! I don't know if I have bad luck and just happened to get a dozen barny ouds, or if maybe (more likely?) we are not talking about the same scent. I wonder if our impression of "barnyard" is quite different? I have smelled some oud oils that were described as barny but were to me more rotten-wood / swampy. I don't know... All this would be much easier if we could all get together and swap dabs of oud and burn a bunch of chips and discuss things right in front of us!

 

[Russian Adam]

Hope that will happen some time soon…


Could be at Taha’s place hihi… hope he not read this… =)


Yes if I remember correctly some one ( quite new to oud I guess ) once described oud Yusuf ( one of the most floral ouds ) as very barnyadry…


So yes, to some people most of the ouds if not all are associated with that aroma…

 

[Al Shareef Oudh]

Mr.P that would be ideal, as smells are very subjective, not only are they subjective, but also impacted by the persons surrounding, what they have ate, the weather etc.


Burning woods is very interesting. Whilst wearing the oil the scent hangs around the individual, burning the woods the scent moves around the house and interacts with the smells in the house. The woods from those regions do have a slight after taste of woody barn, or like nuts. The Sri Lankan wood is one of the woods that do not have that nutty after scent.

 

[Mr.P]

Could also be personal olfactory stuff. She also perceives all labdanum as intolerably barn-like, and she also can't stand musk. Loves ambergris, though! I do see what she is saying about the barn aspect of oud. I don't know what the word is for it - it is a certain cloying, sweet, almost indolic quality (but not literally smelling like indole). There is something animalic and vaguely fecal about the scent of many oud woods, at least at some point in their combustion.

 

[Russian Adam]

Too exited… wanted to share the pics of my new still…


Designed and hand made in Italy… With an additional condenser designed by me…

 

[riviera274]

Too exited… wanted to share the pics of my new still…
Designed and hand made in Italy… With an additional condenser designed by me…

Very nice...