"Divorce in Taiwan" - who is EO talking about?

[language scent]

LOL lets fast forward to 49 minutes. now i dont understand the language, but i understand what hes talking about and i dont think its cool at all tho...anyone have any idea how we can make sure what this guy is saying doesnt happen to us?

 

[EJayB]

I was thinking he would put the little bottle of chemicals into the big bottle of pure Hindi oud but no he put the pure oud into the chemicals at around 50/50 mix
This is why testing from the people who resell exclusively should be mandatory when purchasing from distillers . This trick would show up as a huge % in the oil and be obvious in any gcms test . Any distiller who isn’t wanting to test should expect lower price from less concerned customers who only want cheap oud . There is a huge market for low grade cut oud and the customer just wants a nice smelling fragrance they can enjoy . No shame in that at all ,the customer isn’t demanding purity just great smelling oil .
Only when the customer is duped or misled or lied to for the sake of bigger profits do I have issues.
It’s hard to honestly compete against the dishonest .
So many dishonest people in this oud world from my experiences , I’ve bought so much wood of questionable quality I can’t believe those same vendors are not selling cut oils.
I assume most oud in the open market is cut with some form of dilution method .
Only a test shows the truth. And I’ll say this again .
Vendors buying oud in the price ranges and quantity they do should test it to guarantee purity . Why wouldn’t someone test? It’s $250 and about 10 days time to get that quality assurance. If you sell $300 grams and have 50 ml and you didn’t test it , are you really looking after the customer?
Buyer be ware is more relevant in oud then almost any other industry due to its value and it’s rarity . Everything that’s rare and scarce is counterfeited , or
If not outright counterfeited is cut to gain profit by the dishonest.
We all want to believe otherwise but the ugly truth is that when money gets involved people act funny.
Blind trust and faith in any business is never a good business model and everyone in business agrees on that.

 

[language scent]

I was thinking he would put the little bottle of chemicals into the big bottle of pure Hindi oud but no he put the pure oud into the chemicals at around 50/50 mix
This is why testing from the people who resell exclusively should be mandatory when purchasing from distillers . This trick would show up as a huge % in the oil and be obvious in any gcms test . Any distiller who isn’t wanting to test should expect lower price from less concerned customers who only want cheap oud . There is a huge market for low grade cut oud and the customer just wants a nice smelling fragrance they can enjoy . No shame in that at all ,the customer isn’t demanding purity just great smelling oil .
Only when the customer is duped or misled or lied to for the sake of bigger profits do I have issues.
It’s hard to honestly compete against the dishonest .
So many dishonest people in this oud world from my experiences , I’ve bought so much wood of questionable quality I can’t believe those same vendors are not selling cut oils.
I assume most oud in the open market is cut with some form of dilution method .
Only a test shows the truth. And I’ll say this again .
Vendors buying oud in the price ranges and quantity they do should test it to guarantee purity . Why wouldn’t someone test? It’s $250 and about 10 days time to get that quality assurance. If you sell $300 grams and have 50 ml and you didn’t test it , are you really looking after the customer?
Buyer be ware is more relevant in oud then almost any other industry due to its value and it’s rarity . Everything that’s rare and scarce is counterfeited , or
If not outright counterfeited is cut to gain profit by the dishonest.
We all want to believe otherwise but the ugly truth is that when money gets involved people act funny.
Blind trust and faith in any business is never a good business model and everyone in business agrees on that.

10000000% spot on brother!! EVERYONE should be agreeing to this, no excuses because it makes perfect sense!! But its ok if some dont want to what can you do? personally i am one of those people who feel it is a must if i am ever to buy again from anyone. my last 3day headache was the last time i risk it. those who have no issue should feel free to buy whatever they wish from whoever they wish, its their life, their health and i have no say in it no one else should. you cant force anyone to stop smoking cigarettes and there is no true health agency in the world that exists but only corporate bought puppets, tobacco is a crystal clear proof of this and so are countless drugs that were removed from the shelves years after having destroyed the health of countless unsuspecting people.

 

[iori]

to translate what he said those two chemicals clear/green used to double the quantity "however in year time the oil would be dead/trash", the clear ones used mostly for dark oils and green one for lighter oils because the light ones would get even lighter with clear so using the green would be better.

there is another chemical used on the wood white/brown, paint it and leave it in sun day or two to make it black =)

 

[language scent]

to translate what he said those two chemicals clear/green used to double the quantity "however in year time the oil would be dead/trash", the clear ones used mostly for dark oils and green one for lighter oils because the light ones would get even lighter with clear so using the green would be better.

there is another chemical used on the wood white/brown, paint it and leave it in sun day or two to make it black =)

man the stuff the greedy fooking rats do for money!!! you know they are smart with it tho and they have experience lying to people so when they say "in a years time the oil would be dead trash" it is just a way to throw dust in people eyes because i highly doubt the cut oils are trash after a year. I have bought some super cheap oils in my time and still have them because they were so cheap and they still smell 3years after lol for sure they were cut 40$/g oils what to expect. now think about it, he wasted all that pure oil just for the demonstration? of course not, the oil will sell and it will be fine for years and people who buy from him will think there is no chemical in it because he said that after a year it will not smell. so their oil still smells a year later and wella!! they think they got pure oil LOL the greedy rats are very slick bro, they have experience and they have a lot of imagination on how to cheat and lie, more then the innocent can imagine. good people can not comprehend the ideas or agendas of truly evil people and the same applies to greedy people

 

[EJayB]

man the stuff the greedy fooking rats do for money!!! you know they are smart with it tho and they have experience lying to people so when they say "in a years time the oil would be dead trash" it is just a way to throw dust in people eyes because i highly doubt the cut oils are trash after a year. I have bought some super cheap oils in my time and still have them because they were so cheap and they still smell 3years after lol for sure they were cut 40$/g oils what to expect. now think about it, he wasted all that pure oil just for the demonstration? of course not, the oil will sell and it will be fine for years and people who buy from him will think there is no chemical in it because he said that after a year it will not smell. so their oil still smells a year later and wella!! they think they got pure oil LOL the greedy rats are very slick bro, they have experience and they have a lot of imagination on how to cheat and lie, more then the innocent can imagine. good people can not comprehend the ideas or agendas of truly evil people and the same applies to greedy people

100% brother!! I’m sending out my first samples to test soon . I’m just finishing a 3 tola batch of oud and a few new sandalwood oils that I will test before I sell and I’ll provide the test to customers

 

[language scent]

100% brother!! I’m sending out my first samples to test soon . I’m just finishing a 3 tola batch of oud and a few new sandalwood oils that I will test before I sell and I’ll provide the test to customers

very interesting!! looking forward to it!

 

[OudForm]

Why is this thread being diverted again to the already closed thread??

 

[iori]

man the stuff the greedy fooking rats do for money!!! you know they are smart with it tho and they have experience lying to people so when they say "in a years time the oil would be dead trash" it is just a way to throw dust in people eyes because i highly doubt the cut oils are trash after a year. I have bought some super cheap oils in my time and still have them because they were so cheap and they still smell 3years after lol for sure they were cut 40$/g oils what to expect. now think about it, he wasted all that pure oil just for the demonstration? of course not, the oil will sell and it will be fine for years and people who buy from him will think there is no chemical in it because he said that after a year it will not smell. so their oil still smells a year later and wella!! they think they got pure oil LOL the greedy rats are very slick bro, they have experience and they have a lot of imagination on how to cheat and lie, more then the innocent can imagine. good people can not comprehend the ideas or agendas of truly evil people and the same applies to greedy people

let me introduce you to the great boss 😇

mixed with water some bulk sellers mix it with water and soak wood in it before and after cleaning.

 

[language scent]

AND HERE IS THE GREAT BOSS SHOWING HOW TO APPLY IT TO WOOD THAT POSSIBLY GET DISTILLED HAHAHAHAHAHA
THE TRUTH CAN NOT BE HIDDEN FOREVER!!!

 

[language scent]

Why is this thread being diverted again to the already closed thread??

are you having a panic attack?? take big breaths and drink a little bit of water brother!

 

[The Oud Lab]

let me introduce you to the great boss 😇

mixed with water some bulk sellers mix it with water and soak wood in it before and after cleaning.

It's used to make the wood be more "solid" and shiny. They sort of paint the pieces with it (as you said, mixed with a bit of water) for several times. Mostly Merauke wood.

If one doubts that his wood was painted with this material, you soaked the wood in water for about a day, and you'll have some of that white material floating on top.

As for the white material used in the video, it's known in perfumery. It has no smell and it's used as a thickening agent. There are lots and lots of ways to do that.

As for testing, trust is the main currency for the whole supply chain for a number of reasons that I'll mention below. That's not to say that it's a wrong practice, but it's only useful when the vendor/distiller is trustworthy. So we're back to trust. Trust and knowledge of course. The reasons for that are:

1- any trader/vendor can provide a GCMS and lie about.

2- Not everyone can read a GCMS properly. I can give you a GCMS that has 0 chemical molecules and that will pass the "all natural" test.
Only a few trained and knowledgeable bunch can interpret a GCMS especially as niched as an Oud GCMS and tell you whether it's most likely pure or cut. How you might ask? There are a lot of common natural molecules that are shared between Oud and other cheaper naturals. And this is the technical knowledge that one needs to have to be able to know what the GCMS graph means.

3- That very same previous point can stir a lot of controversy in the market of the usual enthusiastic Joes as they might see a molecule and link it to another cheaper essential oil and claim it's cut with it. No brand needs such a controversy if they do know their oils of course!

4- GCMS is a very complicated topic. I can assure you that there are almost no 2 labs that will give you the same exact result. For Oud specifically, you'll need to reach out to a lab that had done tests on various ouds and had established a trusted source for those various oils and has done the needed R&D to establish those inputs in a standard. Molecule x and Y can be new molecules which are strictly exclusive for Malaccencis for example. But those 2 molecules can be NOT EVEN DEFINED in 95% of the databases of GCMSs labs around the world. Are you catching my drift here? A proper Oud GCMS is not accessible in most countries, and those who have it are lucky. I personally had to send samples overseas for a proper testing.

5- Testing is needed and is mandatory between the supply chain in the commercial business. Yes. Because a perfumery supply chain works on standards.
In niche Oud however, a brand is more or less free to take this choice or not for the aforementioned reasons, but in the end, it will be reflected in the oils and offerings they provide to the market.

Those are some points that are worth shedding light on for both, the client's and vendors. Everyone's free to do whatever they want with that.

 

[Musk Rahil]

At time of SQ trending AAA grade, legendary high end bla bla.
ashworthoud got some oils in his hand too he decided to test it then i think i think it turn out to be low grade oils fakes,
Bro got my respect at that time when hype was real.

 

[language scent]

It's used to make the wood be more "solid" and shiny. They sort of paint the pieces with it (as you said, mixed with a bit of water) for several times. Mostly Merauke wood.

If one doubts that his wood was painted with this material, you soaked the wood in water for about a day, and you'll have some of that white material floating on top.

As for the white material used in the video, it's known in perfumery. It has no smell and it's used as a thickening agent. There are lots and lots of ways to do that.

As for testing, trust is the main currency for the whole supply chain for a number of reasons that I'll mention below. That's not to say that it's a wrong practice, but it's only useful when the vendor/distiller is trustworthy. So we're back to trust. Trust and knowledge of course. The reasons for that are:

1- any trader/vendor can provide a GCMS and lie about.

2- Not everyone can read a GCMS properly. I can give you a GCMS that has 0 chemical molecules and that will pass the "all natural" test.
Only a few trained and knowledgeable bunch can interpret a GCMS especially as niched as an Oud GCMS and tell you whether it's most likely pure or cut. How you might ask? There are a lot of common natural molecules that are shared between Oud and other cheaper naturals. And this is the technical knowledge that one needs to have to be able to know what the GCMS graph means.

3- That very same previous point can stir a lot of controversy in the market of the usual enthusiastic Joes as they might see a molecule and link it to another cheaper essential oil and claim it's cut with it. No brand needs such a controversy if they do know their oils of course!

4- GCMS is a very complicated topic. I can assure you that there are almost no 2 labs that will give you the same exact result. For Oud specifically, you'll need to reach out to a lab that had done tests on various ouds and had established a trusted source for those various oils and has done the needed R&D to establish those inputs in a standard. Molecule x and Y can be new molecules which are strictly exclusive for Malaccencis for example. But those 2 molecules can be NOT EVEN DEFINED in 95% of the databases of GCMSs labs around the world. Are you catching my drift here? A proper Oud GCMS is not accessible in most countries, and those who have it are lucky. I personally had to send samples overseas for a proper testing.

5- Testing is needed and is mandatory between the supply chain in the commercial business. Yes. Because a perfumery supply chain works on standards.
In niche Oud however, a brand is more or less free to take this choice or not for the aforementioned reasons, but in the end, it will be reflected in the oils and offerings they provide to the market.

Those are some points that are worth shedding light on for both, the client's and vendors. Everyone's free to do whatever they want with that.

i hate that this conversation has come up again as innocently as it has even tho this time we arent talking about possible DANGEROUS" stuff but of bulking for profit, when @The Scent Guru closed the other thread, but since it happened...i am just curious, if a vendor isnt trust worthy and they provide fake tests and a bunch of crazy people like me get it tested and prove his tests are fake, would someone risk this if they are trying to make an honest living from it? personally i believe it shouldnt even be a thing anymore because those who want to do it will do it and those who dont wont, those who care will shop specific and those who dont wont.

 

[The Oud Lab]

i hate that this conversation has come up again as innocently as it has even tho this time we arent talking about possible DANGEROUS" stuff but of bulking for profit, when @The Scent Guru closed the other thread, but since it happened...i am just curious, if a vendor isnt trust worthy and they provide fake tests and a bunch of crazy people like me get it tested and prove his tests are fake, would someone risk this if they are trying to make an honest living from it? personally i believe it shouldnt even be a thing anymore because those who want to do it will do it and those who dont wont, those who care will shop specific and those who dont wont.

It's a bit more complex than that.

Let's say a certain vendor gives you a GCMS test that is proper. 0 chemicals. And you do test it and have an identical result (taking into consideration that both labs have the same set of database in their system).

Will that make you at ease and happy about the integrity of that vendor?

How would you read a GCMS?

What are you as a client, looking for in a GCMS?

In the aforementioned example, with all of those elements mentioned, that oil can still NOT be a pure Oud oil 🙂

 

[language scent]

It's a bit more complex than that.

Let's say a certain vendor gives you a GCMS test that is proper. 0 chemicals. And you do test it and have an identical result (taking into consideration that both labs have the same set of database in their system).

Will that make you at ease and happy about the integrity of that vendor?

How would you read a GCMS?

What are you as a client, looking for in a GCMS?

In the aforementioned example, with all of those elements mentioned, that oil can still NOT be a pure Oud oil 🙂

So these chemicals in the video can’t be bought and also sent to the lab with the oil to see how much of them exist in the oils?

 

[The Oud Lab]

So these chemicals in the video can’t be bought and also sent to the lab with the oil to see how much of them exist in the oils?

Those chemicals will show yes.
Do you happen to know what they're called? Those molecules?
Let's presume you and all oud users do know those. And can pin point them on a GCMS.

What about the other molecules? Chemicals that you don't know about.

Not even chemicals. How about natural molecules. Will you be able to read the GCMS and know that this molecule belongs to Oud and this doesn't?

@The Scent Guru, feel free to move this thread under "GCMS controversy" under @The Oud Lab if you find it appropriate. Cheers.

 

[language scent]

Those chemicals will show yes.
Do you happen to know what they're called? Those molecules?
Let's presume you and all oud users do know those. And can pin point them on a GCMS.

What about the other molecules? Chemicals that you don't know about.

Not even chemicals. How about natural molecules. Will you be able to read the GCMS and know that this molecule belongs to Oud and this doesn't?

@The Scent Guru, feel free to move this thread under "GCMS controversy" under @The Oud Lab if you find it appropriate. Cheers.

That’s why the distillers and the vendors who know about all these tricks should expose them!! I mean I’d does seem like a lot of people that I have talked to so far know very well about these things lol

Basically I am stressing that there is always room for learning!!! We could as a community have some pure oils to use as a base to compare with other oils. There must be a way some experts will be able to pin point and eradicate this disgusting practice of greed!!

 

[Mr.P]

Buyer be ware is more relevant in oud then almost any other industry due to its value and it’s rarity . Everything that’s rare and scarce is counterfeited , or
If not outright counterfeited

What could be easier and more tempting to adulterate than oud? A hungry western market with zero experience and minimal institutional knowledge. A liquid which could be any color and any viscosity and potentially be authentic. I think. Who the hell knows? That’s the beauty of it! and in its “distorted by marketing and advertising incarnation” oud has become very trendy, a buzz word, mysterious and (theoretically) a symbol of extreme wealth and disposable income that announces itself and leaves a trail… conspicuous consumption that announces itself even if someone can’t see you.

The temptation to adulterate, to improve margins and lure people seeking a bargain - tests peoples morals for sure

And this is why I am pumped that Olefaktory for example, is giving me some kind of baseline in this madness. I think the connection to the cannabis industry is a perfect scenario because that is a market that did not get fucked up by competitive weirdos (or it got effed up in a different way, different kind of weirdo, depending on where you are, I guess), but which nonetheless provides an infrastructure that can be used to pull oud out of the “artisanal” dark ages top secret dubious ancestral special sauce mixture mumbojumbo that defines has until recently defined the biz.

 

[c-z]

I am so tired of the whole thing. Agarwood and Oud appreciation should have entrenched itself into western culture by now, and it’s not, because of all the infighting and mis-information from ALL directions.

I consider myself a VERY astute observer of the retail world. I have worked in and around high $ retail for nearly 20 years. I have quite a lot of education/study on Micro Economics and advanced marketing. This being said, I’ve never seen such a promising product fail so miserably like Oud has. The huge fragrance houses and compounding companies have molested the product for their own gains like no other product I have seen, and the childish ways the “smaller guys” have taken to bashing each other relentlessly for their own personal gain is nauseating to me as a consumer. The unfriendliness and “fake” elitism and half truths told by so many vendors has held them back in ways they can’t comprehend. They’ve ALL placed casual and large consumers into a “can’t win” scenario in which a person like me feels like they can’t express the truth about liking a product due to the potential backlash from someone in the other faction. It’s sad, and it’s been highly detrimental to themselves in ways they can’t comprehend. Even as I write this, I think—how many hackles will be raised because of the truth I speak.

If Ford and GM, and now Tesla would take to personal attacks against on each other like these “Oud salesman” it would only serve to harm their brand image in a way which could likely never be repaired. How can they be so blind to what they are doing? Are they just this small-minded or is it a true ignorance toward retail marketing strategies which have worked time and time again to push a fledgling product forward? I am not saying they should all cooperate and “koombaya” their way to greater success but this great divisiveness which forces customers away from these bad taste tactics can be the ONLY explanation of why a product so beautiful and so well-loved by so many has failed to get of the ground like it really should.

The whole lot should hang their heads in shame knowing they have successfully pushed numerous people away who could have been great advocates for the furthering of the whole market in general. I frankly could care less about the verbose opinion of who is doing what and how they are doing it so wrong and how the consumer is getting pushed to believing these non-relevant stories and how they should take up arms and not support these “snake oil salesmen” when they themselves are no better. The better thing for the future of the entire Oud world would be proper education without the (obvious) ultra self conscious drivel that’s been put in front of us.

Here’s to hoping some day, some way, an Oud vendor will emerge from their ivory tower and instead of looking to cast stones toward others, decide to help a consumer down the correct path toward being a market advocate and an overall help to the market as a hole. Which will help them in the long run. Unfortunately I don’t see this happening and with the continued recognition of the harm of these tactics many good companies will fail. It’s my sincere hope in spite of this people will still see the possibilities of the hobby and the strength of the final product will eventually shoo away these blood suckers who can’t see past their own growing Pinocchio noses which are keeping them from forwarding their own agenda…but somehow I think they just don’t see it. Or get it. Time will tell, I just hope it’s not too late for Oud.

**If you have taken offense to anything I have written it’s probably because you are part of the problem…

This is maybe the best post I've ever read on this forum, tbh.

I'm a relative newcomer to the world of oud. I've only been exploring oud for 18 months, maybe 2 years—I don't know exactly.

What I have come to discover is that the entirety of the oud market is built upon distrust. That is to say, every oud seller seems to imply, sometimes in explicit language, that THEIR oud is the real deal, the best—and by implication, that other sellers' ouds are not to be trusted, that they aren't real. Again, sometimes this language is explicit, sometimes it is not.

Ensar is, of course, as guilty of this as anyone. But I've seen so many wild, baseless accusations on this forum thrown at Ensar, too. In that sense, I understand why Ensar's marketing is so fear-based.

I am coming to understand that a crucial reason behind this negation-based marketing is that many oud sellers are actually selling product from the same distillers. I have no idea the scope of this practice, but I'm coming to understand that it is true. So, of course, how do you differentiate yourself in a market where your competitors are selling the same (or extremely similar) products? Marketing. And when one competitor engages in fear-based or "negative" marketing, it behooves you (the hypothetical you) to do the same.

Perhaps Ensar was the first to engage in this practice, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't. This seems to be an affliction that plagues the oud market writ large.

The issue is that as fear-based marketing gains more and more traction, it becomes more and more difficult to figure out who to trust.

For the time being, all I can trust is my nose.

Anyway, I want to reaffirm @zeedubbya 's sentiment. I genuinely hope the oud market can rise above this petty drama and fear-based marketing. There is so much for everyone to gain if that were the case. Obviously, I don't know that will happen. But I hope it does.