Oud Distillation

[Al Shareef Oudh]

some oleo-resin, anyone?


I have been getting a fair few questions regarding 'what is the oleoresin?', or the scent of the oleoresin and it's relationship to 'auxiliary' notes.

I know this is probably going to get a few people all ruffled up, however I think it is important that this issue is discussed in clarity and this is not aimed at any individual, but rather the credibility of the concepts based on experience and science.

Oleoresins by scientific definition are an extract of resin by way of solvent extraction where the solvent is evaporated and what remains is resin in an essential or fatty oil solution. Oleoresin can occur in plants naturally as well, it would be a thick substance, nearly solid, however this is rare in oudh wood. In oudh we find nearly always solid resin and oil, two separate elements. With the exception of a few species such as some types of Kynam and white walla patta.

When picking up a oudh chip and smelling it, one is smelling a combination of aromas; wood fibre + trapped oil + resin and that is the closest one will get to smelling the 'oleoresin' of oudh. The scent that one experiences at that moment that is the scent of the oudh 'oleoresin', usually very subtle and quiet different to the oudh oil.

When oudh or any biomatter is distilled during the distillation process there is a transfer of some bonds and formation of some new bonds in the distillate on the other end. The new bonds that form are usually of much longer chemical chains and more complex in nature than those that existed in the wood. This combination of new bonds and transferred bonds is what gives the oils it's complexity.

Here is where the recently coined use of the term auxiliary for the essential oil is inaccurate. There are many new compounds formed in the essential oil that didnt exist in the wood resin, in fact there are new bonds created that do not exist in the extracted oleoresin. These new compounds are not formed due to bad practice but rather due to how the oil compounds behave during distillation. It is part and parcel of the distillation process even at lab conditions. As such when looking at the use of the term 'auxiliary' from the art of distillation perspective than none of the notes that naturally form in that process can be called auxiliary.

If bad practice of fungal soaking, acid washing, dirty stream water etc is used that is a separate discussion and has nothing to do with the art of distillation, just like we cant blame medicine for fake doctors. The reality is during distillation where there is h2o and a biomatter involved, even in pristine glass and lab conditions, new compounds that were none existent in the wood will form at the other end.

The second issue is, oleoresin itself is a extraction based product and that in itself already has gone through chemical changes as it is separated with a solvent from the wood fibres, therefore utilising oleoresin as a reference point to compare a distilled oudh oil is like comparing coca cola with fanta with the aim of trying to determine purity of the water, both are changed and moving parameters.

 

[F4R1d0uX]

some oleo-resin, anyone?
View attachment 1804

I have been getting a fair few questions regarding 'what is the oleoresin?', or the scent of the oleoresin and it's relationship to 'auxiliary' notes.

I know this is probably going to get a few people all ruffled up, however I think it is important that this issue is discussed in clarity and this is not aimed at any individual, but rather the credibility of the concepts based on experience and science.

Oleoresins by scientific definition are an extract of resin by way of solvent extraction where the solvent is evaporated and what remains is resin in an essential or fatty oil solution. Oleoresin can occur in plants naturally as well, it would be a thick substance, nearly solid, however this is rare in oudh wood. In oudh we find nearly always solid resin and oil, two separate elements. With the exception of a few species such as some types of Kynam and white walla patta.

When picking up a oudh chip and smelling it, one is smelling a combination of aromas; wood fibre + trapped oil + resin and that is the closest one will get to smelling the 'oleoresin' of oudh. The scent that one experiences at that moment that is the scent of the oudh 'oleoresin', usually very subtle and quiet different to the oudh oil.

When oudh or any biomatter is distilled during the distillation process there is a transfer of some bonds and formation of some new bonds in the distillate on the other end. The new bonds that form are usually of much longer chemical chains and more complex in nature than those that existed in the wood. This combination of new bonds and transferred bonds is what gives the oils it's complexity.

Here is where the recently coined use of the term auxiliary for the essential oil is inaccurate. There are many new compounds formed in the essential oil that didnt exist in the wood resin, in fact there are new bonds created that do not exist in the extracted oleoresin. These new compounds are not formed due to bad practice but rather due to how the oil compounds behave during distillation. It is part and parcel of the distillation process even at lab conditions. As such when looking at the use of the term 'auxiliary' from the art of distillation perspective than none of the notes that naturally form in that process can be called auxiliary.

If bad practice of fungal soaking, acid washing, dirty stream water etc is used that is a separate discussion and has nothing to do with the art of distillation, just like we cant blame medicine for fake doctors. The reality is during distillation where there is h2o and a biomatter involved, even in pristine glass and lab conditions, new compounds that were none existent in the wood will form at the other end.

The second issue is, oleoresin itself is a extraction based product and that in itself already has gone through chemical changes as it is separated with a solvent from the wood fibres, therefore utilising oleoresin as a reference point to compare a distilled oudh oil is like comparing coca cola with fanta with the aim of trying to determine purity of the water, both are changed and moving parameters.

I agree 100% ...

 

[Faizal_p]

The oleoresin I've used and bought mainly from Thailand and Indonesia comes as a powder and small balls. This is generally used to make incense or bakhoor.
An oil from this or with an aroma of oleoresin would have to come from a co2 or butane extract. As you rightly say distillation is bound to break bonds and rebuild others.
It's like fractional distillation of crude oil, you remove the lightest compounds at the lowest temp such as bottled gas, then gasoline, then naptha, kerosene, d2 etc etc down to the last element which is bitumen.

 

[Ouddict]

So all this talk of Oleoresin curriculum is bogus or what? Let’s call a spade a spade. It certainly undermines the claims I’ve read about previously.

I don’t understand why the people behind all this talk can’t come here and educate the rest of us with their perspective.

Yes, this is an open invite to the Olesresin brigade. So come on over and explain this Oleoresin point of yours. I’m sure many of us want to know more about it.

 

[Shabby]

According to my OED, one definition of the word is 'a natural or artificial mixture of essential oils and a resin', which seems a suitable definition given its usage by the artisans who have been emphasising this point.

@Ouddict have you smelled some of the recent oils which focus on the issue? Have you smelled Kalyani, or Ceylon No.1, or Kiyosumi, or Kenmei, or Kekasihku, or perhaps Suriranka Senkoh?

The oils are a compelling argument in themselves. In my experience actually investigating the oils is necessary for the theory to be confirmed, otherwise it is all hearsay.

Also it took me some time to understand it. I spent about one month going between Chamkeila and Kalyani every night for a few minutes before I felt I had a slight grasp on the matter. For the last two and a half months I have been doing so with Kiyosumi and Kenmei. Of course it is an endless process.

 

[Ammar]

IMO, these venders in part simply were referring to the closest aroma of distilled oil to heated agarwood chips on low temperature which is basically the closest scent of the agarwood resin without the added scent components from the burning wood fibers and so, by decreasing the effect of the pot on the distilled oil. They were not referring to the scientific vocabulary of what aleoresin is. I think many here experienced that the aroma of some oils is very close to the heated wood from which they have juiced.

Having said that oil is oil and wood is wood both have their own beauty and both deliver enjoyment differently.

Oil classified by these venders as having "auxillary" notes doesn't mean necessarily it's of low quality than the "oleoresin" type of oils. It's up to the wearer/buyer to decide if oils with closest resemblance to the smell of the heated agarwood considered as better and higher quality, not the vender because simply it's subjective assessment.

Also the comparison of oil to oil not oil to wood to find the difference in "oleoresin" over the ones with "auxillary" notes suggested by vendors and done by some wearers as a standard of higher quality of the oil is not that valid IMO because there is no standard oil model in reality to compare. You may find the difference and it's fun and olfactory exercise to the wearer but it doesn't mean it's an objective reflection to the quality, otherwise "Kinamic" oils would be considered as low quality because they bear too many auxillary notes.

 

[F4R1d0uX]

IMO, these venders in part simply were referring to the closest aroma of distilled oil to heated agarwood chips on low temperature which is basically the closest scent of the agarwood resin without the added scent components from the burning wood fibers and so, by decreasing the effect of the pot on the distilled oil. They were not referring to the scientific vocabulary of what aloeresin is. I think many here experienced that some oils aroma are very close to the heated wood from which they have juiced.

Having said that oil is oil and wood is wood both have their own beauty and both deliver enjoyment differently.

Oil classified by these venders as having too many "auxillary" notes doesn't mean necessarily it's of low quality than the "oleresin" type of oils. It's up to the wearer/buyer to decide if oils with closest resemblance to the smell of the heated agarwood considered as better and higher quality, not the vender because simply it's subjective assessment.

Also the comparison of oil to oil not oil to wood to find the difference in "oleresin" over the ones with "auxillary" notes suggested by vendors and done by some wearers as a standard of higher quality of the oil is not that valid IMO because there is no standard oil model in reality to compare. You may find the difference and it's fun and olfactory exercise to the wearer but it doesn't mean it's an objective reflection to the quality, otherwise "Kinamic" oils would be considered as low quality because they bear too many auxillary notes.

I agree 1000% ! I think they want to explain that the smell is the closest from the wood on low heat.

I think it would be great to send a chip when artisan runs the distillation by himself...

(Super post bro btw ...)

 

[Rai Munir]

Also the comparison of oil to oil not oil to wood to find the difference in "oleoresin" over the ones with "auxiliary" notes suggested by vendors and done by some wearers as a standard of higher quality of the oil is not that valid IMO because there is no standard oil model in reality to compare. You may find the difference and it's fun and olfactory exercise to the wearer but it doesn't mean it's an objective reflection to the quality, otherwise "Kinamic" oils would be considered as low quality because they bear too many auxiliary notes.

respected Ammar. The whole scenario is clear now. No doubt, comparative study of two or three oils from different vendors is either a wild goose chase or a decent way to broadside some one/ oil. By the way, I strongly feel some time, we miss this vital point that our own skin adds up auxiliary notes into the oil worn that are mistakenly considered the oil's.
So far as the vendor's descriptions go, I pay maximum heed to each one, but, a the end, I un-learn all. Those descriptions can be a diving board, not more than than.

I think it would be great to send a chip when artisan runs the distillation by himself...

Well, ... SPRINTS (not runs) the distillation by (him)self. This 'him' is mostly nonexistent.

 

[F4R1d0uX]

Well, ... SPRINTS (not runs) the distillation by (him)self. This 'him' is mostly nonexistent.

Ip talking with a wonderful brother living in Malaysia, guess what he told me ? Swear you he told me : stop activating me ! LOL.

 

[Ammar]

No doubt, comparative study of two or three oils from different vendors is either a wild goose chase or a decent way to broadside some one/ oil...

Moreso, I really don’t like the act of what some vendors’ followers do by sending samples of other venders’ products to their beloved vender to give his “honest” assessment and review…like really???

Intentionally or unintentionally I doubt it would be an objective review whether positively or negatively.

 

[F4R1d0uX]

Moreso, I really don’t like the act of some vendors’ followers do by sending samples of other venders’ products to their beloved vender to give his “honest” assessment and review…like really???

Intentionally or unintentionally I doubt it would be an objective review whether positively or negatively.

I agree brother @Ammar ...

 

[Ouddict]

According to my OED, one definition of the word is 'a natural or artificial mixture of essential oils and a resin', which seems a suitable definition given its usage by the artisans who have been emphasising this point.

@Ouddict have you smelled some of the recent oils which focus on the issue? Have you smelled Kalyani, or Ceylon No.1, or Kiyosumi, or Kenmei, or Kekasihku, or perhaps Suriranka Senkoh?

The oils are a compelling argument in themselves. In my experience actually investigating the oils is necessary for the theory to be confirmed, otherwise it is all hearsay.

Also it took me some time to understand it. I spent about one month going between Chamkeila and Kalyani every night for a few minutes before I felt I had a slight grasp on the matter. For the last two and a half months I have been doing so with Kiyosumi and Kenmei. Of course it is an endless process.

I "liked" your reply, not for its factual accuracy, but because it is good to see an alternative viewpoint - hence my prior post! It is only through discussion, whether or not you agree/disagree, that we as a community of Oud lovers, can increase our knowledge.

Also, it is irrelevant whether I have smelled some of the recent oils as this is a technical matter where personal subjective "feeling" should not inform the discussion. I think the best approach is to discuss the science behind the oleresin claims as Al Shareef and Faizal have done. It is their rational and technical explanations that sway me - not what someone feels as the subject belongs in the technical domain.

 

[Shabby]

Glad to have a discussion and to hear your opinion @Ouddict

Unfortunately the people who can speak to the technical side of things are not likely to come here, that much is clear. I don't blame them either. I think Ammar's summary is spot on, however.

But the point of the oleoresin curriculum is that it is supposed to produce the highest quality of oil. The technique is thus a means to an end, and if the end is good, then the technique is sufficient, even if understood incorrectly. I'm sure the vendors in question have their own technical explanation in any case.

I very much admired brother Zakir's post the other day. Full of humility and good will, and especially the fact that ultimately it is the oud oil that speaks the best. Evaluating oud oil is not entirely subjective or feeling based, otherwise there would be no such thing as a master.

I think everybody can appreciate the extraordinary top notes in some of the oils I mentioned, for instance. Examining the 'oleoresin curriculum' with the end product in mind is thus very different, and a necessary complement to a technical examination.

 

[Ouddict]

Glad to have a discussion and to hear your opinion @Ouddict

Unfortunately the people who can speak to the technical side of things are not likely to come here, that much is clear. I don't blame them either. I think Ammar's summary is spot on, however.

I'm sure the vendors in question have their own technical explanation in any case.

Do they even have an explanation that makes sense? If they do, I for one am genuinely interested in them enriching this discussion with their understanding.

 

[Shabby]

I don't think the point about new bonds being created has been directly addressed because it has never been brought up before, but if you want a deeper explanation of the concept itself I'd recommend Taha's blog post on his classification of the 'Gen3' and 'Gen4' oils, and also the 'LOT' thread on Gaharu (especially the beginning).

 

[Al Shareef Oudh]

brother Shabby nice to have you back here again and take part in the discussion. Please don't mind if I ignore the drama I am really not interested in it, regardless who it is from, whether here or on gaharu.

I think everybody can appreciate the extraordinary top notes in some of the oils I mentioned, for instance. Examining the 'oleoresin curriculum' with the end product in mind is thus very different, and a necessary complement to a technical examination.

to the topic at hand, are you suggesting that top notes were derived from oleoresin? or that oleoresin provides the top note?

Secondly with regards to the definition of oleoresin you used

a natural or artificial mixture of essential oils and a resin

i am certain you took note that it mentions a mixture of essential oil and a resin. You do realise that resin due to its polarity is best extracted by a solvent, and in the case of agarwood that is a semi-polar solvent.

Based on the rule of "like dissolves like", unless the oils you are talking about were solvent extracted, then the existence of resin in them is highly unlikely. Of course resin could have been grounded as powder and mixed in later on, at which point it would be like sand at the bottom of the oil.

I encourage you and others to deal with the topic at hand with sound reasoning, and simply work towards removing the impossibilities and affirming the possibilities. At current the proposition regarding the premise you present has many impossibilities as I have pointed out.

 

[Shabby]

Thank you dear brother it is always a pleasure to speak with you and learn from you. I hope to contribute more soon insha Allah.

With regard to the first point, I do not understand exactly the distinction you are getting at between 'derived from' or 'provided by', but as I understand it the oleoresin is the basis for the eventual top note - doubtless it is not a direct relationship as the intermediary of the distillation itself exists, with all the points you made about new bonds being formed being a part of it. Nevertheless there is obviously still a relationship between the oleoresin and the final product, so one can understand that as being 'derived from' or 'provided by' the oleoresin in that sense.

This pertains to your second point: the emphasis on oleoresin is with respect to the wood prior to distillation (as Ammar noted above). That is the stage at which the scent properties inherent in the wood are evaluated, which informs the particular distillation set-up. The oils express this evaluation both with respect to the artisan's understanding of the inherent properties themselves (I'm sure they all differ on which properties are inherent), and with respect to the minimisation of 'auxiliary notes' (in the case of AgarAura oils this includes wood fibre notes for his 'Gen 3' oils, but not for 'Gen 4'). Therefore the definition is being applied to the wood, before anything has been done to the oleoresin; as such the definition still applies. The Gaharu thread in question is titled 'Let the Oleoresin Talk', meaning, let the scent of the oleoresin inherent in the wood be the primary determinant of the final scent of the oil; it is not saying that the characteristics in the oleoresin are also equally or exactly present in the final product. In other words the 'primary determinant' is not the same as 'exact equivalent'.

This is also related to your last point about impossibilities:

The oleoresin has inherent scent properties
The oleoresin is distilled (new bonds are formed)
The distillation (new bonds) occurs with respect to the initial oleoresin
The final oil is an expression of the initial oleoresin via the intermediary of the distillation.
Therefore one can speak of the expression of the initial oleoresin in the final oil, even with the introduction of new bonds.

It would only be impossible if the new bonds were completely unrelated to the initial oleoresin, but this itself is impossible, because that is to say the final oil is completely unrelated to the wood.

Please correct me if I have made an error but it seems a relatively straightforward matter. It is simply a way of emphasising the inherent scent profile in the wood and trying to minimise anything extraneous.

 

[Ouddict]

Thank you dear brother it is always a pleasure to speak with you and learn from you. I hope to contribute more soon insha Allah.

With regard to the first point, I do not understand exactly the distinction you are getting at between 'derived from' or 'provided by', but as I understand it the oleoresin is the basis for the eventual top note - doubtless it is not a direct relationship as the intermediary of the distillation itself exists, with all the points you made about new bonds being formed being a part of it. Nevertheless there is obviously still a relationship between the oleoresin and the final product, so one can understand that as being 'derived from' or 'provided by' the oleoresin in that sense.

This pertains to your second point: the emphasis on oleoresin is with respect to the wood prior to distillation (as Ammar noted above). That is the stage at which the scent properties inherent in the wood are evaluated, which informs the particular distillation set-up. The oils express this evaluation both with respect to the artisan's understanding of the inherent properties themselves (I'm sure they all differ on which properties are inherent), and with respect to the minimisation of 'auxiliary notes' (in the case of AgarAura oils this includes wood fibre notes for his 'Gen 3' oils, but not for 'Gen 4'). Therefore the definition is being applied to the wood, before anything has been done to the oleoresin; as such the definition still applies. The Gaharu thread in question is titled 'Let the Oleoresin Talk', meaning, let the scent of the oleoresin inherent in the wood be the primary determinant of the final scent of the oil; it is not saying that the characteristics in the oleoresin are also equally or exactly present in the final product. In other words the 'primary determinant' is not the same as 'exact equivalent'.

This is also related to your last point about impossibilities (I can only answer with respect to my own background, which is logic and the scientific method):

The oleoresin has inherent scent properties
The oleoresin is distilled (new bonds are formed)
The distillation (new bonds) occurs with respect to the initial oleoresin
The final oil is an expression of the initial oleoresin via the intermediary of the distillation.
Therefore one can speak of the expression of the initial oleoresin in the final oil, even with the introduction of new bonds.

It would only be impossible if the new bonds were completely unrelated to the initial oleoresin, but this itself is impossible, because that is to say the final oil is completely unrelated to the wood.

Please correct me if I have made an error but it seems a relatively straightforward matter. It is simply a way of emphasising the inherent scent profile in the wood and trying to minimise anything extraneous.

Interesting reply... looking forward to Al Shareef’s reply and maybe from other vendors or experts?

@Shabby... are you a scientist or lecturer in Philosophy by profession as you mentioned your training in the scientific method and logic?

 

[Shabby]

Interesting reply... looking forward to Al Shareef’s reply and maybe from other vendors or experts?

@Shabby... are you a scientist or lecturer in Philosophy by profession as you mentioned your training in the scientific method and logic?

No my brother, I am only a graduate. My degree had the strange title of 'Philosophy, Logic and the Scientific Method'. In fact I shall remove that sentence from the post as it is misleading - I meant only to excuse myself for not being conversant in scientific terms.

 

[Ouddict]

No my brother, I am only a graduate. My degree had the strange title of 'Philosophy, Logic and the Scientific Method'. In fact I shall remove that sentence from the post as it is misleading - I meant only to excuse myself for not being conversant in scientific terms.

Oh great! I have a degree in Physics, but did electives in Introductory Logic and also in the Philosophy of Science, hence my question.

There is a bit of difference between operational day to day experimental science and studying the underlying theory of it however.