Oud Distillation

[Shabby]

Oh great! I have a degree in Physics, but did electives in Introductory Logic and also in the Philosophy of Science, hence my question.

There is a bit of difference between operational day to day experimental science and studying the underlying theory of it however.

Indeed, hence my attempt to excuse myself. However the question of pure impossibility does pertain to it I think.

Always good to have a physicist around!

 

[Ouddict]

Indeed, hence my attempt to excuse myself. However the question of pure impossibility does pertain to it I think.

Always good to have a physicist around!

Actually, I wanted (and tried to get onto) a degree in Philosophy and have a keen interest in the Philosophy and History of Science, but ended up staying to do Physics and made do with electives in that area, plus reading Russell, Popper, Kuhn and others...

 

[Oudamberlove]

@Al Shareef Oudh
" There are many new compounds formed in the essential oil that didnt exist in the wood resin, in fact there are new bonds created that do not exist in the extracted oleoresin."

Hi Jawed,

I just want to understand correctly, during distillation, the resin in the wood actually forms new compounds that end-up in the collector?

What then is the likely outcome/profile of an oil when a high percentage of sinking grade wood is used?

Thank you

 

[F4R1d0uX]

@Ouddict impossible to transform resin into oil using water and oud wood only.

Soaking tricks can be applied to open more wood fibers (lignins) to catch trapped oil deeper.

Temps variation (with high temps) can help catch the oil trapped into resin.

If someone claims to transform resin in oil just with water and oud resin call him Midas.

As the use of higher temperatures makes you catch heavier compounds, you will have new compounds in your cgms data sheet.

I'm just a seller, not a distiller but know veterans distillers far before I joined this forum.

This very distillers ( I think of one in particulary) teached to who claims to be super inventor or oud scientists.

I see in this forum people with high ability to detect notes but unable to detect someone signature ...

This is what I have to say on this subject after people are free to decide what they want to do with it ...

 

[Shabby]

@F4R1d0uX I don't think that is what they're saying at all brother, please read the literature that is already available.

@Ouddict There is actually a lot of important philosophy to discuss related to oud, especially if the concern is to preserve and strengthen tradition as much as possible. The first and most important thing is to decondition the mind from Cartesian dualism - to stop seeing matter as being inert and purely quantitative, and all notion of quality coming from our own individual minds. This is way of looking at the world was completely alien to the entire world until Descartes and modern Western philosophy.

It is only when this is foregone that there is a clear explanation as to why, as our teacher @Rai Munir said, the purity of the wearer and distiller play an objective role in the outcome of the oil. The purity of the soul determines our ability to see the true qualities of materials, whether it be as obvious as the majesty of a lion, the grace of a swan, or all the detailed nuances of a chip of agarwood. I recently wrote my Masters dissertation on a closely related subject, and part of my research included certain 14th and 15th century Persian album prefaces. Without exception they wrote that the beauty of the writing was connected to the virtue of the soul, and that the purpose of the art was to move beyond the external appearances to the imaginal realm - closer to the Divine empyrean. The observable universe was understood as consisting of reflections of Divine Attributes which had to be perceived by the eye of the heart as it was purified.

So much of traditional art and craftsmanship saw the rules of their craft as descending from above, whether that was by direct inspiration or through the teaching of the master. The intuitive or intellective faculty played the highest role, and was given primacy with respect to the particular form that the art would eventually take. In the modern world we tend to give primacy to the empirical or quantitative domain, forgetting that it is merely the most accurate description of what is going on at any given moment.

The Cartesian bifurcation is such a deeply embedded part of the modern psyche however that I do not see many people questioning it. Amazingly enough, I think Chris from White Lotus Aromatics is one person who has done that, as his descriptions of Jasmine flowers being tied to Purity seem to indicate.

 

[F4R1d0uX]

Brother @Shabby I've done this already sincerely ...

This was initiated by Taha and when Ensar met him and made video he started saying on gaharu that he get technics from Taha but is not very motivated to do so.
Someone answered each artisan should have his own signature. But then oleoresin topic used to be raised by the second ...

You can read this there too...

 

[Shabby]

Brother @Shabby I've done this already sincerely ...

This was initiated by Taha and when Ensar met him and made video he started saying on gaharu that he get technics from Taha but is not very motivated to do so.
Someone answered each artisan should have his own signature. But then oleoresin topic used to be raised by the second ...

You can read this there too...

Yes sir but they are two different topics: one is yield-boosting and the other is the oleoresin. For instance some of the recent Agar Aura 'Special K' oils lack in the yield-boosting techniques but clearly are trying to emphasise the oleoresin. I'm sure that Ensar would say that most of the oils he releases try to emphasise the oleoresin as much as possible even though he has barnyard ouds as well.

 

[Ouddict]

@F4R1d0uX I don't think that is what they're saying at all brother, please read the literature that is already available.

@Ouddict There is actually a lot of important philosophy to discuss related to oud, especially if the concern is to preserve and strengthen tradition as much as possible. The first and most important thing is to decondition the mind from Cartesian dualism - to stop seeing matter as being inert and purely quantitative, and all notion of quality coming from our own individual minds. This is way of looking at the world was completely alien to the entire world until Descartes and modern Western philosophy.

It is only when this is foregone that there is a clear explanation as to why, as our teacher @Rai Munir said, the purity of the wearer and distiller play an objective role in the outcome of the oil. The purity of the soul determines our ability to see the true qualities of materials, whether it be as obvious as the majesty of a lion, the grace of a swan, or all the detailed nuances of a chip of agarwood. I recently wrote my Masters dissertation on a closely related subject, and part of my research included certain 14th and 15th century Persian album prefaces. Without exception they wrote that the beauty of the writing was connected to the virtue of the soul, and that the purpose of the art was to move beyond the external appearances to the imaginal realm - closer to the Divine empyrean. The observable universe was understood as consisting of reflections of Divine Attributes which had to be perceived by the eye of the heart as it was purified.

So much of traditional art and craftsmanship saw the rules of their craft as descending from above, whether that was by direct inspiration or through the teaching of the master. The intuitive or intellective faculty played the highest role, and was given primacy with respect to the particular form that the art would eventually take. In the modern world we tend to give primacy to the empirical or quantitative domain, forgetting that it is merely the most accurate description of what is going on at any given moment.

The Cartesian bifurcation is such a deeply embedded part of the modern psyche however that I do not see many people questioning it. Amazingly enough, I think Chris from White Lotus Aromatics is one person who has done that, as his descriptions of Jasmine flowers being tied to Purity seem to indicate.

Have you just left university?

 

[Shabby]

Handed my dissertation in exactly one month ago!

 

[F4R1d0uX]

Theses 2 topics are linked... let me bet special K is top note centred and airy ?

 

[Shabby]

Theses 2 topics are linked... let me bet special K is top note centred and airy ?

I haven't tried any Special K oils yet unfortunately although I think one may be coming by post tomorrow...

Taha himself emphasises that most people underemphasise the basenotes, which are also very important to his oils.

But I must respectfully say I think you have misunderstood that conversation brother. We can agree to disagree, but from what I understand, they are two different topics, and also Ensar was saying the same thing earlier, just without using the specific term 'oleoresin'.

 

[F4R1d0uX]

I haven't tried any Special K oils yet unfortunately although I think one may be coming by post tomorrow...

Taha himself emphasises that most people underemphasise the basenotes, which are also very important to his oils.

But I must respectfully say I think you have misunderstood that conversation brother. We can agree to disagree, but from what I understand, they are two different topics, and also Ensar was saying the same thing earlier, just without using the specific term 'oleoresin'.

This is not a problem brother Im happy to get wrong as long as I grow from being wrong, debating is learning for me not forcing someone to accept my point.

I insist just because I have been teached by a skilled distiller who knows that topic ... and you may not have all infos.

Crasna does not requires a gen 4 it yields naturaly lot and wood fibers easier to open so easier to get the oil trapped inside the resin. Filaria is the hardest wood, without a gen 4 you can only get very poor yield (see Adam Ma marokesh or something like this) or classical merauke smell (smoke black dark resin).

So as we are talking about the oleoresin topic I repeat you can get only the smell of the oil trapped into this resin but impossible to transform resin into oil using only water ... and the discover of oil trapped in resin has been raised with yield boosting purpose.

Getting wood oil smell on low heat basicaly is minimum to 0 soak and very low temperature for long period.

Getting wood smell at room temperature CO2 extraction.

Hope it answered your question sorry english is not my mother language.

 

[Ouddict]

Handed my dissertation in exactly one month ago!

Thought so...

I’ll have to humour you with an answer... but a bit busy right now with the baby!

 

[Shabby]

This is not a problem brother Im happy to get wrong as long as I grow from being wrong, debating is learning for me not forcing someone to accept my point.

I insist just because I have been teached by a skilled distiller who knows that topic ... and you may not have all infos.

Crasna does not requires a gen 4 it yields naturaly lot and wood fibers easier to open so easier to get the oil trapped inside the resin. Filaria is the hardest wood, without a gen 4 you can only get very poor yield (see Adam Ma marokesh or something like this) or classical merauke smell (smoke black dark resin).

So as we are talking about the oleoresin topic I repeat you can get only the smell of the oil trapped into this resin but impossible to transform resin into oil using only water ... and the discover of oil trapped in resin has been raised with yield boosting purpose.

Getting wood oil smell on low heat basicaly is minimum to 0 soak and very low temperature for long period.

Getting wood smell at room temperature CO2 extraction.

Hope it answered your question sorry english is not my mother language.

Thanks for elaborating sir. From what I understand, the filaria oils are Gen4. The oil 'Sultan's Solace' used 'simultaneous hybrid and hybrid + steam extraction' (quote from the product page).

One exception may be Syed's Ascent (from the aroma alone), but can't be sure.

 

[F4R1d0uX]

Thanks for elaborating sir. From what I understand, the filaria oils are Gen4. The oil 'Sultan's Solace' used 'simultaneous hybrid and hybrid + steam extraction' (quote from the product page).

One exception may be Syed's Ascent (from the aroma alone), but can't be sure.

You are most welcome brother !
Hydro+ steam is indicated in that case yes.
Maybe the 2nd oil was released after and a new discover should have been made between the 2 releases in the soaking process for example ...😉

 

[Rai Munir]

most important thing is to decondition the mind from Cartesian dualism

respected Shabby. You hit the bull-eye. Most of time, I myself remain imprisoned in the narrow and shallow world of dualism when trying to listen to Oud. Your mentioning 'Catesian dualism' made me see my fault.

to stop seeing matter as being inert and purely quantitative, and all notion of quality coming from our own individual minds

Agreed. At the moment, I am just evaluating my own approaches. You mean to say individual mind generated quantitative approach. If it is what you have said, YES I do agree with you. Discursive reasoning leads to 'divide and rule', and this 'divide and rule' is Cartesian dualism for me. Appreciable it is that you indirectly said we have to be qualitative.

the purity of the wearer and distiller play an objective role

In my opinion, rather belief, yes it is what is of vital importance. To be honest, the moment I am jealous of somebody, IO's Mysore Sandal seems to be Tanzanian Sandal to me😉😉😉, which is actually no Sandal. Vibes and auras are not granny's fairy tales. They are concrete realities, but largely neglected.

my research included certain 14th and 15th century Persian album prefaces.

Great. But this very point, the inner purity, is not limited to 14 or 15th century, whatever the traditional civilization had been and is, 'purity of soul' is the nucleus in there. By the way, the time you mentioned is the most rich era in Persian literature and philosophy. Shaikh Hafiz, Sadr al Deen Qunwi, etc. Great Masters.

The observable universe was understood as consisting of reflections of Divine Attributes which had to be perceived by the eye of the heart as it was purified.

It 'IS', and even now the same is imparted , because it is so. Perceiving attributes of Oud requires that purity too. Whenever attributes are to be perceived, 'heart' and 'purity' are a must in traditional epistemology. Otherwise, Descartes and Kant, modern Philosophy, would remain active, knowingly or unknowingly.

So much of traditional art and craftsmanship saw the rules of their craft as descending from above

Excellent; therefore I have been writing about the internal state of the distiller and the wearer counts a lot. In traditional perfumery, the 'Master' is not used for all distillers, but a unique one in many- 'many' includes those trying to be humble or pose to be humble. Not artistry or artisan-ship, but purity. Divine Comedy by Goethe, Paradise Lost by Milton- in the beginning both prayed to "Muse' for spiritual guidance and reveal the best on their hearts. Of course purity is sought in the beginning. Same is true to Oud as well. Final touch is on the part of a wearer.

The Cartesian bifurcation is such a deeply embedded part of the modern psyche

Respected Shabby, yes it is so, but here on this Forum, majority of members are personified 'Negative Capability' and epitome of classical epistemological sensibility. Knowing terms is not important. Whenever I read the posts by respected members @F4R1d0uX, Ammar, AlKhadra, Habz, Jawed, Mandeel, Ouddict, and many more, I really feel they first emptied themselves from past experiences, and then assessed the oil. Some how other 'association' does get activated, but at the end. Not just nose, but the whole self is what I perceive in their reviews. Some margin is to be given to 'me' please. I sometimes tilt towards 'quantity'.

as our teacher @Rai Munir said

! THIS IS ABSOLUTELY WRONG. I PROTEST. If I write more on this part of the sentence, it will lead to 'self projection', though indirect and in the guise of humility.

But I request you please, let me be a wearer or a learner THAT ACTUALLY I AM. I am a back-bencher.
Otherwise, I will hibernate or become dormant.

I love the discussion on this thread. More than precious information I have got. Thanks to all. The most important thing 'tone and register' remained decent. Purity of heart it is. May this Forum stay so. Amen!

Stay happy, respected Shabby.

Addition after Edit:
PS: Tanzanian Sandal is referred as a particular sandalwood species, that is of second rank wood. I actually said when I am jealous of somebody or something, something great (Mysore Sandal) appears to be low ranked (Tanzanian wood).

 

[Al Shareef Oudh]

@Al Shareef Oudh
" There are many new compounds formed in the essential oil that didnt exist in the wood resin, in fact there are new bonds created that do not exist in the extracted oleoresin."

Hi Jawed,

I just want to understand correctly, during distillation, the resin in the wood actually forms new compounds that end-up in the collector?

What then is the likely outcome/profile of an oil when a high percentage of sinking grade wood is used?

Thank you

Hey Curt

No not the resin. What you see as the dark brown/black resin in the physical form of a wood chip does not break down under standard hydro distillation. The proof for this is simple in the spent matter. What I was referring to are the oils and within the oils a sesquiterpene class called Guaiene. The structure becomes more of an Azulene type which changes odour profile and also gives a darker colour to the resulting oil.

To your second question plants generally have some amount of oil. There was some misinformation, not deliberate, being circulated around the oudh community online couple years back that white agarwood does not have oil. This is incorrect. Even none infected healthy agarwood trees will produce oil. The scent profile of that oil will not be oudhy, it will be more light, airy lacking the depth of resinous oudh, it will also not last long on skin. When resinous wood chips are used in the distillation process the oils contained within them have a higher percentage of fragrant compounds, the actual volume of oil in those pieces are lower than an equivalent oil chip piece of agarwood (the orange/brown sections before the black). The reason for that is the resin has saturated the wood and most of the oils have either changed form or escaped. There are small pockets of oil stuck within the resin, but resin and oil are two separate entities.

I don't want the vendors to use what I am saying here to start hiking their prices lol but, higher quality wood does not produce the same quantity of oil as does oil grade wood. There is a significant reduction in the quantity of oil, and therefore the cost increase is two fold, one for the wood, and the other due to the reduced oil volume on which to distribute the costs.

In order for the resin to be broken down and make all of it or parts of it across into the resultant distilled oil, other processes have to be employed. The simplest is solvent extraction and the resultant is like a sludge which crystallises on the skin.

This brings me to @Shabby post.

dear akhi, for the sake of remaining concise and specific to the topic with an effort to elevate the discussion beyond vendor experiences because it becomes very difficult to quantify the quality in experiences. Who's experience is more factual and of a higher quality, greater quantity .... endless debate. As such i'll try to keep to the objective aspects of the topic so that we can explain some of the issues that arise with such propositions like the one at hand.

Have you smelt oleoresin in pure form? or are you depending on what you read from vendors. My next question would be how do you know that you arrived at your destination? when you do not know the destination.

Secondly, not every oudh species has the same oleoresin, and nor do all the oleoresins smell the same. This would require that oleoresins are produced for each distillation, then the oils are aligned to it. Which we all know cant happen when some of the oils you mention were actually distilled by third parties and not the vendors themselves.

thirdly, oils from the wood transfer during the distillation process as new bonds and existing bonds into the distillate, resin remains in the wood. When I asked the questions, derived and provide, is because when a scent is extracted from a specific source that is derived, where as provide does not have to be from a specific source.

When you speak about expression that takes the discussion down a totally different path.

As per my original post on the topic, oleoresin is a mixture, of oil and resin, two separate entities in that mixture. They are not necessarily and usually aren't oleoresin in the wood. In the wood there is oil and there is resin surrounded by an array of other compounds. The issue arises when people claim that in the resultant oil they can pin point the profiles pertaining to the oleoresin. Can you see when you trace this back, what is in the resultant as a supposed scent, can not be traced back to something that never existed in the claimed form in the first place. Impossibilities.

So when you say

let the scent of the oleoresin inherent in the wood be the primary determinant of the final scent of the oil

my questions still apply, "what is the oleoresin?"

The oleoresin has inherent scent properties

Oleoresin is a varied product dependant on the method of extraction, as I mentioned in the original post, it is a product of extraction. It does occur naturally, but very rarely. Therefore this reference you make is not accurate.

The oleoresin is distilled (new bonds are formed)

No, something that doesn't exist cant be distilled. The oils and related compounds are distilled, physical resin in standard hydro distillation is not distilled.

The distillation (new bonds) occurs with respect to the initial oleoresin

No, new bonds are formed in relation to the oil and related compounds.

The final oil is an expression of the initial oleoresin via the intermediary of the distillation.

It would be more accurate to say that the final oil is an expression of the wood and the resin within the wood rather than oleoresin. For your statement to be true, the wood has to be extract, oleoresin produced, then distilled, an oil produced, that oil can then be an expression of the oleoresin.

Therefore one can speak of the expression of the initial oleoresin in the final oil, even with the introduction of new bonds.

With the consideration of the above points I made, the new bonds or more simply the final distilled oil is an expression of the wood.

 

[Shabby]

Brother Jawed, it seems to me that there is a very simple misunderstanding at the source of all this.

You have understood 'oleoresin' by its scientific definition, and answered questions about the oleoresin and made objections to what I have written with that in mind.

This is not how it has been used by the vendors at all. They are simply referring to what it is that constitutes the fragrance of resinated oud wood, which has been termed 'oleoresin'. The term 'oleoresin' is simply used to talk about what it is that makes the difference between the first and second images in the following picture (quoting an email from Taha):

I don't know how else to state it but it is extremely clear if you read the first page of the 'Let the Oleoresin Talk' thread. Perhaps you have not read it out of some objection but if people are asking you questions about the oleoresin, then I assume they are doing so with respect to how it has been spoken of in that thread. This is different to the scientific definition you have in mind.

I hope that clears things up.

 

[Rai Munir]

@Al Shareef Oudh, Jawed, respected brother, very informative post. I came to know about the areas completely unknown to me. I liked this thread a lot. Difference of opinions made a lot of dimensions known to all.
Thanks to everybody who contributed to this thread.

 

[Rasoul Salehi]

@Al Shareef Oudh @Faizal_p

How did I not see action on this thread till now. Pardon me for being late.

To a none chemist but scientific minded person it appears that the use of oleoresins and auxiliary as it has been used maybe inaccurate and scientifically incorrect. That's why peer review and open dialogue in any field is important.

BUT I can tell you there is something to these genre of oils. There is a very clear common thread amongst all of them. I am not here to say good or bad. I am here to state a fact based on what I think is a considerable and fair sample size.

Oils like EO jing shen lu, suriranka senkoh, sultan Abdu selam... and AA lavanya, kekasihku, kiyosumi, au Luong, Ayu... all as far as I understand are poster Childs of no aux and only oleoresin oils (now let's pls suggest a more accurate and correct name. Let's be constructive).

Now guess what? To me, some of these oils are absolutely brilliant and others make you scratch your head. Some show litheness while some show lightness. Big difference. Also some give you impression of under extraction while others make you shake your head in disbelief of just how balanced and ethereal they are.

What I am personally interested is to hear from you gents is if you have had any of above oils or most of them and what do you think about them?

More importantly for me is to hear the science and technique behind this method of extraction that is definitely very unique and in my opinion deserving of a name as a genre. Like the topic of soak or not to soak, or if so, how long and how, Lets discuss how to make better oils in this genre.

just b/c an oil is oleoresin/no aux- as It has been said- it doesn't make it superior to let's call it: "other" type oils. So let's make it better collectively as a community. What benefits our fellow distillers will benefit us as connoisseurs.

making advances and pushing the envelope while also respecting tradition is what oud imho should be about. Let's no get hung up on the literal meanings of some words (although very important to correct and challenge our peers respectfully patiently and reasonably) and wrong usage of these words. Let's explore what these oils are all about? What do we like about them?

Pls. Note I said what we like about them? Not dislike but like. After all oud is for pleasure. why waste mother natures work, artisans hardship, hard earned money you earned and then immediately start with negative criticizing. Let's find pleasure first then the not so greats and n rare cases official and clear oil faults.

*Edits are purely typo correction.