Oud Distillation

[Shabby]

@Rasoul Salehi I agree with everything you said! And also with @Rai Munir, it goes without saying.

The credibility of the notion rests on the quality of the oils, and in my opinion some of the oils are mind-bogglingly splendid. Many of my personal favourite oils fit into this 'genre'. However, not all of them - for instance an oil like Assam Organic 07, which has a deep and powerful barn, clearly has auxiliary notes by this definition, but the barn is so well integrated that it complements the 'oleoresin' aroma perfectly. I would hate to imagine it without its barn.

There is no doctrine about what oud oil should smell like, but the argument that it is the resin and oil ('oleoresin') that should be the major or even exclusive focus is a powerful one. After all, that is what provides the therapeutic effect of the oil. In addition, the focus on the 'oleoresin' in these oils is an amazing resource to have even when appreciating oils with 'auxiliary' notes - it can give one a deeper understanding of what it is that is going on in the oil and a greater admiration for what the distiller is doing.

Perhaps the greatest benefit I have encountered from it is simply immersing myself in the experience of the different 'oleoresin' aromas and properties. To simply explore the Vietnamese, Sri Lankan and Indian scent profiles, seeing what therapeutic qualities emerge, slowly identifying common denominators in the regional profiles as well as exceptional qualities which are unique to certain oils in particular. This is a luxury that I think is greatly aided by oils which focus on the 'oleoresin' and try to forego auxiliary notes as much as possible. Again, this does not necessarily mean that these are the 'best' oils - who knows what that means - but it is certainly an extremely valuable approach in my humble opinion. I would be so sad not only for myself but for the whole community if this approach was glanced over without spending time with the oils.

What connects both vendors and members on these forums is the love for oud. Sometimes, love for oud presents itself in a humble and noble upholding of tradition, sometimes, it is evident in a deep search for knowledge and delving into hitherto unexplored territory. Sometimes its appearance is to be found in hand-grinding wood and using copper stills, at other times it is evident in using pyrex. Tradition and inquiry need each other: tradition without inquiry can become stale; inquiry without tradition can be rootless and arbitrary. And the oils are always there as the final testament to the skill, love and knowledge of the distiller, and as a means for the wearer to humble himself.

I am also very happy and humbled to be a part of this thread and to try and present the joy I have experienced from some of the oils mentioned. The main reason I was motivated to speak is the incredible benefits I have been blessed to enjoy from these oud oils. If more people can experience it would be a source of even greater happiness for me.

 

[Ouddict]

Shabby has increased the word count on this forum with those two posts!

The only thing I don’t understand is why confuse the debate by defining Oleoresin as something other than it is understood to be! Call it something else...

I’m a stickler for correct usage of terms and definitions and to me, it is frustrating when words are given similar, but different meanings and raises suspicions that this whole theory is being made up as we go along.

 

[F4R1d0uX]

Salam brother @Shabby.

My quotes were basicaly :

- resin cant be distilled using agarwood and water only.

Gen 3 is long period process at low temperature.

Gen 4 is temp oscillation with high temperature curves phasis.

Co2 extraction gives wood smell at room temperature.

 

[Al Shareef Oudh]

@Shabby

Brother Jawed, it seems to me that there is a very simple misunderstanding at the source of all this.

You have understood 'oleoresin' by its scientific definition, and answered questions about the oleoresin and made objections to what I have written with that in mind.

This is not how it has been used by the vendors at all. They are simply referring to what it is that constitutes the fragrance of resinated oud wood, which has been termed 'oleoresin'. The term 'oleoresin' is simply used to talk about what it is that makes the difference between the first and second images in the following picture (quoting an email from Taha):

I don't know how else to state it but it is extremely clear if you read the first page of the 'Let the Oleoresin Talk' thread. Perhaps you have not read it out of some objection but if people are asking you questions about the oleoresin, then I assume they are doing so with respect to how it has been spoken of in that thread. This is different to the scientific definition you have in mind.

I hope that clears things up.

Words have meanings for a reason, if everyone comes along and adds their own meaning to them than no one would understand the other person. This discussion on oleoresin is no different, the word has a known meaning. The product has known characteristics and behavioural parameters which determine what it can and can’t do, or what can and can’t be extracted from it. Words, as is used in a story book can not alter those realities.

As I have requested in my posts many times over, it is best to leave vendors and their products out of the discussion and deal with the principles in the discussion at hand. Quoting vendors will not lead us to a conclusion as we cannot quantify the quality of any vendors experience vs any other vendor, as I said earlier it will lead to endless debate. Secondly if one comments on vendors or their products, as has been proven before, even when the vendor themselves asks for comment, then that also can be misconstrued and taken down dark alleys. As such to keep the discourse fruitful please avoid the constant referencing to vendors own words, it has no value in this discussion.

The two photos that you have posted, the difference between the two is resin. You cannot physically see the oil as the oil is trapped within the wood fibres, this is a good example to illustrate the consequence of misuse of terms.

In my humble opinion to keep the literature within the community consistent we should not create confusion by misuse of terms. Consumers and vendor can coin new terms, such as versions number, or generation or levels and so forth to define a new genre that they are working on. Then explain what they mean by that. In this regard I commend Taha with his Gen series, it is his thing, everyone knows it’s his, he isn’t bastardising words or their meanings, he has defined it for the genre’s he is pursuing.


@Rai Munir my respected brother as my father would say “Information is without soul, the soul is in knowledge, and knowledge is that when a person acts on what he knows from truth” then quote the verse “Can you compare those who know with those who do not”. May your wisdom for ever shine.


@Rasoul

That's why peer review and open dialogue in any field is important.

This statement is what this community is most in need of. This is something that has been lacking in this community from day one. Back in the day there were people who tried to keep the development of the online community around knowledge, research and objective analysis of products. They would collate research papers and share them, share oil sources, send samples around, discuss and critique. That community was shut down due to the antics of some. Many attempts have been made to restart such an initiative but they have been derailed by the same antics. For some it is as though they fear the oudh community to be informed and aware of the factual details of the oudh business and maybe for them it is a true fear; knowledge will dispel many of the stories that have been created to sell products.

I am here to state a fact based on what I think is a considerable and fair sample size.

Smell comparison by the nose unless the nose is trained systematically, can not be fact over a sizeable sample set (i think you had mentioned 60-70). Whilst the nose as a human faculty is extremely powerful in picking the minutest variances in scents, the latest research suggests a trillion different smells, our olfactory inventory of terms for majority of us, fail to be able to distinguish the variances, so what we do is associate. If you are saying that you associate these oils that you mention with a certain theme, that is absolutely possible. However can we say that the association is due to no auxiliaries and yet the oil has been distilled, that is then inaccurate and problematic.

What I am personally interested is to hear from you gents is if you have had above oils or most of them and what do you think about them?

As I mentioned to Shabby, it is important to leave vendors and their products out of the discussion. The community is very small, at the same time peer review isn’t a stablished culture in the community yet, as such any comments on those oils or the vendors will be taken the wrong way even if not intended that way.


As with the genres of oils, and the techniques employed, I think is a very interesting topic. I remember in one of the threads Respect @Rai Munir made some comments regarding the origin of the word oudh, and the physical origin of the wood oudh. I believe understanding those terms within their context, origins, the intent behind the word, the application of the word and substance will in fact help us now identify the correct genre for some of these oils.


I know some of the oils that we smell today in the market would not fit the genre of oudh as a smell in the classical context. Yes they maybe distilled from oudh, yet they do not fit the genre of oudh in the context of where the word came from and the expected smell, within that tradition. So maybe we do need to define a perfumery genre for such oils and not an oudh genre. Here I am not referring to the oils you or Shabby mention, rather I am saying in more broader terms.

More importantly for me is to hear the science and technique behind this method of extraction that is definitely very unique and in my deserving of a name as a genre. Like topic of soak or not or if so how long and how, Lets discuss how to make better oils in this genre.

With distillation the possibilities are limitless, a true artisan can create amazing perfumery from oudh just by understanding distillation. I will share here a small technique, that only we have, but now others can benefit, from the same pot placing a 3 head exit pipe with a condenser on each head, each condenser having a different cooling temperature, 3 very different oils will be produced. That is distillation perfumery where the notes that raise at different temperatures are cooled according to what is best for those notes. However based on the auxiliary definition that is all auxiliary


@Shabby

The credibility of the notion rests on the quality of the oils,

The credibility of any notion rests on the building blocks that make that notion. If the whole premise of a notion is inaccurate then the notion itself as a concept comes under question.

There is no doctrine about what oud oil should smell like, but the argument that it is the resin and oil ('oleoresin') that should be the major or even exclusive focus is a powerful one. After all, that is what provides the therapeutic effect of the oil. In addition, the focus on the 'oleoresin' in these oils is an amazing resource to have even when appreciating oils with 'auxiliary' notes - it can give one a deeper understanding of what it is that is going on in the oil and a greater admiration for what the distiller is doing.

It would be great if you could answer my earlier questions, even at a personal level, what is oleoresin to you? And what is auxiliary? When you smell an oil, any oil, how do you know you are smelling oleoresin(as you understand the term) and auxiliary( as you understand the term).

I noted that you brush off something that is so deeply rooted in the Arab culture “there is no doctrine about what oud oil should smell like” , whilst you accept a story created couple months back as being certain truth. The fact that you may not know about it does not mean it doesn’t exist. You could take your oudh collection to any old uncle in the villages of the Khaleej and they will tell you which is oudh, similarly in Assam.

I think I can conclude with that and say, some of the issues in this community continue because we do not source our knowledge from a wider number of sources but we limit it to the information we get from vendors. As Rasoul said if we have peer review and more researched information, some of these basic notions would become no issues because individuals would resolve those themselves.

 

[peter4ptv]

Shabby has increased the word count on this forum with those two posts!

The only thing I don’t understand is why confuse the debate by defining Oleoresin as something other than it is understood to be! Call it something else...

I’m a stickler for correct usage of terms and definitions and to me, it is frustrating when words are given similar, but different meanings and raises suspicions that this whole theory is being made up as we go along.

Totally agreed with you, I have read all the oleoresins and auxiliary discussions on the other forum and on the blog. And to me is nothing more but another sales pitch wave to justified high prices of some vendors, since the kyara kinam is getting kind of old.

I also have try some of this oleoresins oils and they are not that special compare to other vendors oils.

Some vendors try to self-proclaimed themselves as simply the best and most other vendors in comparing to them just distilling oils from white wood.

And they openly show in their blogs some very resinous woods saying this what is their material compare to the white wood also on the picture that most competitors distill from.

I am not even sure if you can get any oil at all from a wood full of resins.

 

[Ouddict]

@Shabby

This statement is what this community is most in need of. This is something that has been lacking in this community from day one. Back in the day there were people who tried to keep the development of the online community around knowledge, research and objective analysis of products. They would collate research papers and share them, share oil sources, send samples around, discuss and critique. That community was shut down due to the antics of some. Many attempts have been made to restart such an initiative but they have been derailed by the same antics. For some it is as though they fear the oudh community to be informed and aware of the factual details of the oudh business and maybe for them it is a true fear; knowledge will dispel many of the stories that have been created to sell products.

I think I can conclude with that and say, some of the issues in this community continue because we do not source our knowledge from a wider number of sources but we limit it to the information we get from vendors. As Rasoul said if we have peer review and more researched information, some of these basic notions would become no issues because individuals would resolve those themselves.

Let's do this here...

 

[Rai Munir]

@Al Shareef Oudh, respected Jawed, what else is to be written on the proposition under discussion. “Can you compare those who know with those who do not?” Of course, none but an ignorant will/can. May God bless us all with 'ilm' and 'fira'asat'.

I had been reading all posts about oleo-resin, auxiliary notes, vendor's claims, etc since the very first day. First thing that had been perplexing was ONE'S USUAGE OF TERMS WITH DIFFERENT MEANINGS FROM THE REST OF PARTICIPANTS. Even there is clash in perception of those terms. Second, whenever some particular name (vendor's or oil's) gets into the discussion, it creates a lot of problems. It narrows down the canvas and spectrum, which is the worst pitfall on the way to have a genuine discourse to learn. The moment we limit something, it becomes a kind of "walking for walking sake', while 'walking is for reaching sake'. In spite of all that, the discussion had been so fruitful as different perspectives and dimensions became known to all.

I have always been saying that we are destined to live in this marketing tactics based artisanal world. Of course, slogan are coined, terms are released, false impression is distilled. All for what!? For fake supremacy; therefore, I have been coming across a lot of comical slogans and expressions before the release of a new oil, which some Mr Oud Columbus discovered from some Oud Underworld. I am sure, after a month, it will be floated from some corner, that not oleo-resin but that very termite or those ants are to be cooked, that caused Oud-gum, to have the best Oud smell, and LOOK, I HAVE DONE SO.

How to cope with this situation? No 3 or 4 generation Oud can help, but 4 or 5 generation antibiotic. I am fed up with all terminology play. It is a kind of gambit. Today ole-resin and generations, and tomorrow it will be announced that THE WOOD I HAVE USED IS CHOPPED WITH A COPPER AXE FROM CORDOVA, A STAINLESS STEEL SAW FROM MALAGA, AND CHIPS WERE KEPT IN A BAG OF JUTE FROM BANGLADESH, AND I ASSURE YOU IT IS I, JUST I WHO HAS DONE SO. (LET'S PLAY PRE-ORDERING, AND BUY WOULD BE LEGEND 7TH GENERATION for your 14th generation. And connoisseurs swallow the bait. After all "marketing' is a subject (I don't call it a discipline) to make one expert in how to cheat/ hook to wangle. This marketing had never been the part of any traditional civilization. Now I feel there is no difference in selling Coca Cola and selling Oud.

Comparative study is not a child's play. Mostly it ends up in smoke after belittling one. Second, if a discourse is to be made, names mar the discourse. I acquired some oils a couple of weeks ago; when wore, my body reacted that much that I am not able to wear Oud on my skin any more. I refrain myself from participating in this discussion. Otherwise, when comparison and oleo-resin were under-discussion, I would have indicated the oleo-resin and generation are irritants; so, it is to be considered as well. It would have given a twist to the thread. Again "A chef's praise is no recommendation'. Open ended discussion leads to a definite point. Your last post is moving. You drove the nail aright. "The credibility of any notion rests on the building blocks that make that notion." Thumb up, respected Jawed. Thanks for your post. It has rooted out a lot of weeds like unnecessary oleo-resin from my mind, and no auxiliary notes are left. Now the sky is clear. No smog of funny terms.

Respected Shabby's stance is a valid one as well. I think when something is observed from some specific angles, such differences do emerge. I personally get a lot of things from his posts.

@peter4ptv as usual rocks. His brief post brushed away the somber environment created by this heavy discourse. @Nikhil S is absent for many days. May he be healthy and safe. Peace is the pivot of this Forum. May it remain forever.

 

[Ouddict]

Some vendors try to self-proclaimed themselves as simply the best and most other vendors in comparing to them just distilling oils from white wood.

And they openly show in their blogs some very resinous woods saying this what is their material compare to the white wood also on the picture that most competitors distill from.

I have seen this on a couple of vendor blogs and it is simply outrageous, disingenuous and false. As you say, the underlying message is that OTHERS use that kind of wood and the context is the Artisanal Oud community so its obvious who is being referred to as it is such a small community. Anyway, let's stick to the technical discussion on Oleoresins - far more beneficial to have a positive discussion on here and let people make their own conclusions based on facts.

 

[peter4ptv]

@Al Shareef Oudh, respected Jawed, what else is to be written on the proposition under discussion. “Can you compare those who know with those who do not?” Of course, none but an ignorant will/can. May God bless us all with 'ilm' and 'fira'asat'.

I had been reading all posts about oleo-resin, auxiliary notes, vendor's claims, etc since the very first day. First thing that had been perplexing was ONE'S USUAGE OF TERMS WITH DIFFERENT MEANINGS FROM THE REST OF PARTICIPANTS. Even there is clash in perception of those terms. Second, whenever some particular name (vendor's or oil's) gets into the discussion, it creates a lot of problems. It narrows down the canvas and spectrum, which is the worst pitfall on the way to have a genuine discourse to learn. The moment we limit something, it becomes a kind of "walking for walking sake', while 'walking is for reaching sake'. In spite of all that, the discussion had been so fruitful as different perspectives and dimensions became known to all.

I have always been saying that we are destined to live in this marketing tactics based artisanal world. Of course, slogan are coined, terms are released, false impression is distilled. All for what!? For fake supremacy; therefore, I have been coming across a lot of comical slogans and expressions before the release of a new oil, which some Mr Oud Columbus discovered from some Oud Underworld. I am sure, after a month, it will be floated from some corner, that not oleo-resin but that very termite or those ants are to be cooked, that caused Oud-gum, to have the best Oud smell, and LOOK, I HAVE DONE SO.

How to cope with this situation? No 3 or 4 generation Oud can help, but 4 or 5 generation antibiotic. I am fed up with all terminology play. It is a kind of gambit. Today ole-resin and generations, and tomorrow it will be announced that THE WOOD I HAVE USED IS CHOPPED WITH A COPPER AXE FROM CORDOVA, A STAINLESS STEEL SAW FROM MALAGA, AND CHIPS WERE KEPT IN A BAG OF JUTE FROM BANGLADESH, AND I ASSURE YOU IT IS I, JUST I WHO HAS DONE SO. (LET'S PLAY PRE-ORDERING, AND BUY WOULD BE LEGEND 7TH GENERATION for your 14th generation. And connoisseurs swallow the bait. After all "marketing' is a subject (I don't call it a discipline) to make one expert in how to cheat/ hook to wangle. This marketing had never been the part of any traditional civilization. Now I feel there is no difference in selling Coca Cola and selling Oud.

Comparative study is not a child's play. Mostly it ends up in smoke after belittling one. Second, if a discourse is to be made, names mar the discourse. I acquired some oils a couple of weeks ago; when wore, my body reacted that much that I am not able to wear Oud on my skin any more. I refrain myself from participating in this discussion. Otherwise, when comparison and oleo-resin were under-discussion, I would have indicated the oleo-resin and generation are irritants; so, it is to be considered as well. It would have given a twist to the thread. Again "A chef's praise is no recommendation'. Open ended discussion leads to a definite point. Your last post is moving. You drove the nail aright. "The credibility of any notion rests on the building blocks that make that notion." Thumb up, respected Jawed. Thanks for your post. It has rooted out a lot of weeds like unnecessary oleo-resin from my mind, and no auxiliary notes are left. Now the sky is clear. No smog of funny terms.

Respected Shabby's stance is a valid one as well. I think when something is observed from some specific angles, such differences do emerge. I personally get a lot of things from his posts.

@peter4ptv as usual rocks. His brief post brushed away the somber environment created by this heavy discourse. @Nikhil S is absent for many days. May he be healthy and safe. Peace is the pivot of this Forum. May it remain forever.

Great info, simply for me this is the post of the year.........................😉

 

[peter4ptv]

I have seen this on a couple of vendor blogs and it is simply outrageous, disingenuous and false. As you say, the underlying message is that OTHERS use that kind of wood and the context is the Artisanal Oud community so its obvious who is being referred to as it is such a small community. Anyway, let's stick to the technical discussion on Oleoresins - far more beneficial to have a positive discussion on here and let people make their own conclusions based on facts.

I will always remember what one vendor\distiller said to me in private:
<<<<<I will juts work behind the scene and let my oils speak for my work, no need of makeup stories>>>>>>>

 

[Oudamberlove]

When heating oud chips, we are experiencing the notes from the oil and the resin. If we smell those same notes in an 0ud oil, would it be safe to say we are smelling oleoresin??

ASO has always stood for the proper use of terms, I am so much in agreement with this. Words are only containers that have a meaning inside. If the meanings are not properly assigned, then when one speaks words to communicate, the end result is just fantasy

 

[Rasoul Salehi]

@Shabby



Words have meanings for a reason, if everyone comes along and adds their own meaning to them than no one would understand the other person. This discussion on oleoresin is no different, the word has a known meaning. The product has known characteristics and behavioural parameters which determine what it can and can’t do, or what can and can’t be extracted from it. Words, as is used in a story book can not alter those realities.

As I have requested in my posts many times over, it is best to leave vendors and their products out of the discussion and deal with the principles in the discussion at hand. Quoting vendors will not lead us to a conclusion as we cannot quantify the quality of any vendors experience vs any other vendor, as I said earlier it will lead to endless debate. Secondly if one comments on vendors or their products, as has been proven before, even when the vendor themselves asks for comment, then that also can be misconstrued and taken down dark alleys. As such to keep the discourse fruitful please avoid the constant referencing to vendors own words, it has no value in this discussion.

The two photos that you have posted, the difference between the two is resin. You cannot physically see the oil as the oil is trapped within the wood fibres, this is a good example to illustrate the consequence of misuse of terms.

In my humble opinion to keep the literature within the community consistent we should not create confusion by misuse of terms. Consumers and vendor can coin new terms, such as versions number, or generation or levels and so forth to define a new genre that they are working on. Then explain what they mean by that. In this regard I commend Taha with his Gen series, it is his thing, everyone knows it’s his, he isn’t bastardising words or their meanings, he has defined it for the genre’s he is pursuing.


@Rai Munir my respected brother as my father would say “Information is without soul, the soul is in knowledge, and knowledge is that when a person acts on what he knows from truth” then quote the verse “Can you compare those who know with those who do not”. May your wisdom for ever shine.


@Rasoul



This statement is what this community is most in need of. This is something that has been lacking in this community from day one. Back in the day there were people who tried to keep the development of the online community around knowledge, research and objective analysis of products. They would collate research papers and share them, share oil sources, send samples around, discuss and critique. That community was shut down due to the antics of some. Many attempts have been made to restart such an initiative but they have been derailed by the same antics. For some it is as though they fear the oudh community to be informed and aware of the factual details of the oudh business and maybe for them it is a true fear; knowledge will dispel many of the stories that have been created to sell products.




Smell comparison by the nose unless the nose is trained systematically, can not be fact over a sizeable sample set (i think you had mentioned 60-70). Whilst the nose as a human faculty is extremely powerful in picking the minutest variances in scents, the latest research suggests a trillion different smells, our olfactory inventory of terms for majority of us, fail to be able to distinguish the variances, so what we do is associate. If you are saying that you associate these oils that you mention with a certain theme, that is absolutely possible. However can we say that the association is due to no auxiliaries and yet the oil has been distilled, that is then inaccurate and problematic.




As I mentioned to Shabby, it is important to leave vendors and their products out of the discussion. The community is very small, at the same time peer review isn’t a stablished culture in the community yet, as such any comments on those oils or the vendors will be taken the wrong way even if not intended that way.


As with the genres of oils, and the techniques employed, I think is a very interesting topic. I remember in one of the threads Respect @Rai Munir made some comments regarding the origin of the word oudh, and the physical origin of the wood oudh. I believe understanding those terms within their context, origins, the intent behind the word, the application of the word and substance will in fact help us now identify the correct genre for some of these oils.


I know some of the oils that we smell today in the market would not fit the genre of oudh as a smell in the classical context. Yes they maybe distilled from oudh, yet they do not fit the genre of oudh in the context of where the word came from and the expected smell, within that tradition. So maybe we do need to define a perfumery genre for such oils and not an oudh genre. Here I am not referring to the oils you or Shabby mention, rather I am saying in more broader terms.





With distillation the possibilities are limitless, a true artisan can create amazing perfumery from oudh just by understanding distillation. I will share here a small technique, that only we have, but now others can benefit, from the same pot placing a 3 head exit pipe with a condenser on each head, each condenser having a different cooling temperature, 3 very different oils will be produced. That is distillation perfumery where the notes that raise at different temperatures are cooled according to what is best for those notes. However based on the auxiliary definition that is all auxiliary


@Shabby



The credibility of any notion rests on the building blocks that make that notion. If the whole premise of a notion is inaccurate then the notion itself as a concept comes under question.





It would be great if you could answer my earlier questions, even at a personal level, what is oleoresin to you? And what is auxiliary? When you smell an oil, any oil, how do you know you are smelling oleoresin(as you understand the term) and auxiliary( as you understand the term).

I noted that you brush off something that is so deeply rooted in the Arab culture “there is no doctrine about what oud oil should smell like” , whilst you accept a story created couple months back as being certain truth. The fact that you may not know about it does not mean it doesn’t exist. You could take your oudh collection to any old uncle in the villages of the Khaleej and they will tell you which is oudh, similarly in Assam.

I think I can conclude with that and say, some of the issues in this community continue because we do not source our knowledge from a wider number of sources but we limit it to the information we get from vendors. As Rasoul said if we have peer review and more researched information, some of these basic notions would become no issues because individuals would resolve those themselves.

Dear Jawed
Thank you for taking the time. I hear you loud and clear on semantics and importance of correct usage of words. I am not a chemist or scientist and as such I am not decided and don't feel I can confidently say if oleoresin used as it has: is correct, somewhat correct, or flat out wrong but anyways let's not get caught up in this (I don't mean to downplay its importance or brush you off) and Let's refer to these genre of oils as "Gen 3 and the likes of them " regardless of the distillers behind them. Maybe in fact we should come up with an even more generic yet inclusive name that doesn't single out anyone.

In regards to your words on the state of the coominuty and its past:
Time heals everything. In due time and hopefully with small kind and well intentioned gestures the community will heal and rejoice in becoming one. One day we hope. Sooner than later we hope. But is on each and every one of us to contribute however small toward this. Rehashing the past and beating a dead horse will get us no where. I for one as an active participant of multiple other forums (not talking about oudh) just don't get this community. Oudh is tiny niche. Artisan oudh an even tinier one. Those who can converse in English even smaller. We should celebrate each and every member of this community to share our passion for this most profound substance that is a microcosm in and by itself projecting the very many scents of the world for all of us to enjoy. Yet we are forgetting. Here is to reminding ourselves...

Sorry for diverging. Back to it:
I stand corrected. Let me erase the word "fact " and use associate and just say in now 90ish oil samples and dozens of wood from multi sources, I see a common thread between these genre of oils we are talking about. I associate with them differently.
they are in general terms and for me personally more outward and high def in their opening note than other oils. Maybe I am wrong and the only one but I see them as oils that appear to favour top note over heart. Not to say they are devoid of it but rather favour one. I humbly see them as oils that are more about finesse than power. I experience them as lithe and ethereal. Comparing to ultra low heat monkoh vs suradaki vs Arab style bbq there is pleaure to be had in all methods. Mood calls for different ways of heating wood. These oils seem to be more about ultra low temp monkoh. Sometimes the soul wants this type of oil and other times one that is rustic. Yet other times one that is about power. Beauty is in variety. Beauty is everywhere.

In regards to auxiliary notes a better name that it has in fact been used already is " accessory "notes. These oils maybe not devoid of it but it is minimal amounts. What do you think about the term accessory?

With all due respect my dear brother as much as I value the semantics and truly care and think is important I humbly sense that maybe some other members of the community may not feel as strongly about it and instead of taking the words quite literally they are after just what the heck is this genre of oils. How they came to be? How to approach them, etc.


I agree with all your points except one. I am going to have to go pick up my baby boy from daycare but I'll be back to oicenthis one disagreement out.

Much respect love and peace. I'll be back (Arnold voice)

 

[Shabby]

Brother Jawed, I notice some distinct methodological issues with your approach. Unless these are resolved no deepening of the discussion is possible. Their enumeration is more for the sake of examining how we can converse about the same topic than speaking of the oleoresin itself:


1. Objective language only exists in the domain of pure logic and pure mathematics, otherwise in language charity is required on the part of the listener, as well as to find common ground. To find common ground one has to be aware of where the other is coming from. In this case that requires being aware of what has already been said regarding the present subject - meaning here what the vendors have said. To attempt to speak in pure principle about an actual thing is impossible - it is confusing two different levels of reality.

2. In your claim of a misuse of terminology is a misuse of terminology. You have equated 'difference' with 'visible difference' for no particular reason. That is like saying the only difference between a picture of an apple and a banana is that one is yellow. As I have shown this kind of accusation is very easy and moves discussion in only a tangential direction. It can go on indefinitely unless one approaches the other with goodwill and an intention of understanding.

3. A premise implies an argument, but there is no argument in this case. There is nothing being said except that focusing on the oleoresin (meaning oil and resin in the wood) and diminishing the auxiliary notes leads to better oils. I think you agree that oil and resin exists in the wood; and I think you will agree that the barnyard note for example is more extrinsic to the scent than other notes. Perhaps you think that extrinsic and intrinsic notes are difficult to distinguish, but I suggest that in certain cases it is very easy to identify, for example with the barnyard note, and also with smokey notes, just as an example. It is not an argument, it is an emphasis, a question of degrees. It is not possible to falsify an emphasis or aim.

3. Quantitative or empirical facts does not equate to objectivity. This is a very particular and pernicious modern perspective which is the very destruction of the traditional universe. Quantitative observation sits at a lower level to qualitative perception in all traditional world views. You are equating qualitative perception with personal opinion. This is the death of the discussion of art - it is like describing a piece by Beethoven with reference to the sheet music alone. If you think that discussion about the quality of the oil is impossible to be free of bias, I suggest that this is born of an unfounded skepticism. If we are capable of reproaching ourselves, then we are capable of moving past bias. If we are not capable of moving past our own prejudices, then there would be no hope for even something as basic as trying to improve ourselves. With sincere goodwill, it is certainly possible. With the greatest of respect, the philosophy that considers 'information is dead' is a very modern one. There are innumerable philosophical texts from the Islamic tradition which argue that form is an expression of a qualitative essence; that is the means of moving from the phenomenal to the noumenal.

4. You have assumed in my statement 'there is no doctrine regarding what oud oil should smell like' that I was referring to the Arab tradition. I was actually referring to the oleoresin curriculum. The fact that you interpreted it that way, and that you have forgotten the various emails I have sent you regarding the Arab tradition tells me that you do not take my respect for tradition seriously or as being sincere, and also that you consider my observations to be biased and influenced by a 'story'. In that case nothing I say regarding the subject can be of value for you. This is another problem if the discussion is to go deeper.

5. Finally, if the traditional 'Arab' doctrine of oudh is absolute or ultimate, then the same or an even stronger claim is being made as the accusations levelled at the other vendors. Our way or the highway. If there is no mutual learning, then both are doomed. Tradition has never been a closed entity. In my own home I witnessed what became of a tradition that rested on its laurels - it becomes easily eroded unless it is kept vibrant.

This will be my final contribution to this section of the thread. From now on I shall focus on the oils alone, God willing.

Wishing everybody a blessed day and peace to all.

 

[Habz786]

IMO all of the talk of x y and z axis and oloresin is a more smarter way of marketing products. Its something new and in a few months there will be something else, its business at the end of the day. Now theres a story thats more realistic rather than the fantasy world storys. There maybe some truth in the theorys but i dont think i can commit to all the in-depth analaysis and science talk. However if terms have meanings they should be used according to those meanings and not played with. I rather smell and oil and see if i like it and let that do all the talking so much easier 😀

 

[Rasoul Salehi]

IMO all of the talk of x y and z axis and oloresin is a more smarter way of marketing products. Its something new and in a few months there will be something else, its business at the end of the day. Now theres a story thats more realistic rather than the fantasy world storys. There maybe some truth in the theorys but i dont think i can commit to all the in-depth analaysis and science talk. However if terms have meanings they should be used according to those meanings and not played with. I rather smell and oil and see if i like it and let that do all the talking so much easier 😀

For what is worth: I for one as someone who is on the cautious side of everything in life and naturally pessimistic by nature can confirm to you that these genre of oils are different beasts. Like any other genre: medicinal or barn/animal, steam vs hydro etc. some are great some not so. But this latter part is subjective. Value is in the eye of beholder.

Dear @Rai Munir and @Habz786 :
Marketing is and by itself neutral or if anything positive. It is not evil. While many in this world use it in top to bottom approach to move products, others use it genuinely to promote and tell real the story behind their product.

I am not here to convince anyone. I encourage oudh lovers to give these oils a chance only and only because they have brought me so much joy and pleasure and I like to see my fellow brothers experience the same joys I have. That’s it. No agenda. No alterior motives. None.

As for topic of price i chose to see it this way but open to be convinced otherwise:
It is my understanding that the raw material for these oils are of very high price b/c they are incense and carve grade not oil grade. Hence less supply more demand (from Japanese and Chinese mainly) and as such higher prices.

2) such wood yields less oil. So again higher price. *(see note below)

3) slow and looooong distillation means labor cost goes up. So contributing to higher price

There are likely other smaller higher costs: notably equipment


*: Having said that the one thing doesn’t make sense to me is: I read that the type of wood used for such oils is high resin so less oil made from it yet these genre of oils get more oil per kilo cause they have figured out a way (orthodox or unorthodox) to get the oil Trapped in the resin that otherwise would have ended up as spent material and byproduct of the distillation (I captured as essential oil).

In sum, my understanding is that under classical and long existing methods high resin wood yields less oil. But I am not certain if a kilo of high resinated wood while having learned how to convert the resin to oil yields same amount or much more or still less than a typical oil rich wood meant for distillation. I shall investigate further and reply back.

Final two cents on price:
distiller can choose to price their oil however way the want. Even if assuming they have learned to get 10 times more oil from a kilo of wood they can feeely charge also 10 x the price. Not logical but hey since when pricing always followed logic 100%?

Is up to the market to buy or pass. In other words, we shouldn’t demand from them just because yields were low price be high and if yields are high price should be low. It makes sense to gdo so and many likely operate based on this way of thinking anyways but we shouldn’t expect this as our right. Let free market decide.

@Al Shareef Oudh I’ll be back to voice out the one disagreement I have with your last post. I want to give it more thought for a proper deserving reply.

 

[Al Shareef Oudh]

Brother Jawed, I notice some distinct methodological issues with your approach. Unless these are resolved no deepening of the discussion is possible. Their enumeration is more for the sake of examining how we can converse about the same topic than speaking of the oleoresin itself:


1. Objective language only exists in the domain of pure logic and pure mathematics, otherwise in language charity is required on the part of the listener, as well as to find common ground. To find common ground one has to be aware of where the other is coming from. In this case that requires being aware of what has already been said regarding the present subject - meaning here what the vendors have said. To attempt to speak in pure principle about an actual thing is impossible - it is confusing two different levels of reality.

2. In your claim of a misuse of terminology is a misuse of terminology. You have equated 'difference' with 'visible difference' for no particular reason. That is like saying the only difference between a picture of an apple and a banana is that one is yellow. As I have shown this kind of accusation is very easy and moves discussion in only a tangential direction. It can go on indefinitely unless one approaches the other with goodwill and an intention of understanding.

3. A premise implies an argument, but there is no argument in this case. There is nothing being said except that focusing on the oleoresin (meaning oil and resin in the wood) and diminishing the auxiliary notes leads to better oils. I think you agree that oil and resin exists in the wood; and I think you will agree that the barnyard note for example is more extrinsic to the scent than other notes. Perhaps you think that extrinsic and intrinsic notes are difficult to distinguish, but I suggest that in certain cases it is very easy to identify, for example with the barnyard note, and also with smokey notes, just as an example. It is not an argument, it is an emphasis, a question of degrees. It is not possible to falsify an emphasis or aim.

3. Quantitative or empirical facts does not equate to objectivity. This is a very particular and pernicious modern perspective which is the very destruction of the traditional universe. Quantitative observation sits at a lower level to qualitative perception in all traditional world views. You are equating qualitative perception with personal opinion. This is the death of the discussion of art - it is like describing a piece by Beethoven with reference to the sheet music alone. If you think that discussion about the quality of the oil is impossible to be free of bias, I suggest that this is born of an unfounded skepticism. If we are capable of reproaching ourselves, then we are capable of moving past bias. If we are not capable of moving past our own prejudices, then there would be no hope for even something as basic as trying to improve ourselves. With sincere goodwill, it is certainly possible. With the greatest of respect, the philosophy that considers 'information is dead' is a very modern one. There are innumerable philosophical texts from the Islamic tradition which argue that form is an expression of a qualitative essence; that is the means of moving from the phenomenal to the noumenal.

4. You have assumed in my statement 'there is no doctrine regarding what oud oil should smell like' that I was referring to the Arab tradition. I was actually referring to the oleoresin curriculum. The fact that you interpreted it that way, and that you have forgotten the various emails I have sent you regarding the Arab tradition tells me that you do not take my respect for tradition seriously or as being sincere, and also that you consider my observations to be biased and influenced by a 'story'. In that case nothing I say regarding the subject can be of value for you. This is another problem if the discussion is to go deeper.

5. Finally, if the traditional 'Arab' doctrine of oudh is absolute or ultimate, then the same or an even stronger claim is being made as the accusations levelled at the other vendors. Our way or the highway. If there is no mutual learning, then both are doomed. Tradition has never been a closed entity. In my own home I witnessed what became of a tradition that rested on its laurels - it becomes easily eroded unless it is kept vibrant.

This will be my final contribution to this section of the thread. From now on I shall focus on the oils alone, God willing.

Wishing everybody a blessed day and peace to all.

dear brother Shabby it was really unfortunate that you took this turn in your response, when you take the focus off the topic and instead make assumptions about the person and their intentions rather than addressing the points asked from you then that itself is the end of the discussion, regardless of whatever dogmatic errors in the method.

Philosophical indifference or difference which is not the topic of this discussion, you spent a lot of energy on, yet you did not answer the questions put to you. I am not sure what you were trying to achieve.

I can not say if you are sincere or not, but I assume the best about you.

I checked my emails and I could not locate an email from you regarding Arab culture. Some emails where you ask about oudh and Islamic Spirituality but none on Arab culture, might have missed it.

@Rasoul, whilst you contemplate your complete answer, ill just make this point.

Regarding the volume of oil from heavily resinated wood vs oil grade wood. Imagine E.g 1 , a box 4x4 inches, filled with your favourite liquid. E.g 2, imagine an identical box 4x4inches with another box 2x2inches inside it, all filled with your favourite liquid. Which example will contain more liquid? clearly E.g 1 because in E.g 2 the structure of the second box would have occupied space that otherwise would contain liquid.

Heavily resinated wood is like E.g 2, it physically contains less oil as the resin has saturated the wood fibres. Oils trapped in the resin can be extracted by applying other methods, but the resin itself remains. Therefore the final physical space for oil producing content is less in highly resinated wood than it's equivalent in oil grade wood.

 

[Rasoul Salehi]

dear brother Shabby it was really unfortunate that you took this turn in your response, when you take the focus off the topic and instead make assumptions about the person and their intentions rather than addressing the points asked from you then that itself is the end of the discussion, regardless of whatever dogmatic errors in the method.

Philosophical indifference or difference which is not the topic of this discussion, you spent a lot of energy on, yet you did not answer the questions put to you. I am not sure what you were trying to achieve.

I can not say if you are sincere or not, but I assume the best about you.

I checked my emails and I could not locate an email from you regarding Arab culture. Some emails where you ask about oudh and Islamic Spirituality but none on Arab culture, might have missed it.

@Rasoul, whilst you contemplate your complete answer, ill just make this point.

Regarding the volume of oil from heavily resinated wood vs oil grade wood. Imagine E.g 1 , a box 4x4 inches, filled with your favourite liquid. E.g 2, imagine an identical box 4x4inches with another box 2x2inches inside it, all filled with your favourite liquid. Which example will contain more liquid? clearly E.g 1 because in E.g 2 the structure of the second box would have occupied space that otherwise would contain liquid.

Heavily resinated wood is like E.g 2, it physically contains less oil as the resin has saturated the wood fibres. Oils trapped in the resin can be extracted by applying other methods, but the resin itself remains. Therefore the final physical space for oil producing content is less in highly resinated wood than it's equivalent in oil grade wood.

Bingo. Now in your own experience and let's put cost aside for a moment. Let's assume we can pass that fully on to the consumer. Does such high resin wood (not most appropriate for oil be of economical reasons) yield amazing oil? I am not necessarily talking categorically as I am sure some do some don't but do some of these oils in your experience make it worth while purely from scent complexity point of view (not cost)?

My other answer is coming momentarily.

 

[Rasoul Salehi]

Dear jawed @Al Shareef Oudh I find myself in disagreement with the part of your post that basically suggests if an oil is made from agarwood but doesn't follow the path of tradition or what oudh(with h) is known for then is not oudh and basically a different name or perfume should be replacing it. Pardon me for paraphrasing and maybe not 100% capturing your point but I think for the purposes of this discussion and to keep things simple and light and engaging for the entire community( things have gotten a bit too serious and dry, no?) here is my thought:

I would have loved to talk spirit and wine technique changes over decades and centuries (yet results are still called wine and whiskey or single malt despite changes) and compare this to oudh vs oud and basically classics (oils adhering to tradition) vs this whole genre of call it Gen 3 or oleo or whatever and I'll be happy to do this in private with you over email but For now I am going to use a different layman analogy: steak evolution or maybe you call it revolution.

On that note Pls watch the movie steak (r) evolution. Is on Netflix.

The way I see it, your argument is basically suggesting b/c for generations steak constituted of let's say casterated male cattle around the age of 2, and then the meat then had to be dry aged for 30-45 days and then cooked on charcoal and that was steak anywhere and everywhere you would have and if outside of it it shouldn't be called steak. if some dude cooks it sous vide and then pan fry it, it shouldn't be called steak and is a different thing. Or how about grill vs BBQ. Gas vs charcoal. Wet aged vs dry aged. Angus vs wagyu breed. Casterated vs non casterated. Veal vs beef. Age of cattle... where do we draw the line?

Here is how I see it: these genre of oils still carry the signature And spirit of agarwood. If they had zero resemblance I could see your point but personally I still stay undecided if the community should accept them as Oudh or not. I haven't made up my mind on that yet. But so long as there is a resemblance and I can tell you out of all my samples all but one (and that is likely to my relative new exposure to oud) do, what is the issue? I am genuinely interested in your way of thinking As I have tremendous respect for you and your vast experience in this field.

Not only these oils have resemblance to classics( not ideal word but traditional isn't either. I am without appropriate word. Maybe status quo oils?) but In fact I think the proponents argue that they are delving deeper into capturing the truth and real essence of agarwood minus the other notes that can come about by various techniques (this has been called auxiliary. I now personally think the term is not the best and rather accessory notes is better).

This whole movement in oud/oudh Is almost mirroring a movement started in the wine world called: natural wine. These are wines that the makers don't even believe putting in new or even 2-3 year old used oak barrels. The vessel the wine going to age in has to be neutral. Very many years used barrels. Stain steel. Concrete tanks. Clay amphora... they are about a minimalist pure less is more movement. I see many similarities in not only philosophy but actual end product of this genre of oils and these genre of wines.

Pls note they are still called wine. Just referred to as natural wine. Like apple vs organic apple(bio) or biodynamic apple. All still apple.

I am not great with words today and in a rush to get this thought out as I have a long evening and few busy days ahead. I didn't want to delay in responding longer but not being as eloquent and to the point as I wanted to. Pardon me for that.

I hope the message came across even 90%.

 

[F4R1d0uX]

My personal conclusion on that topic is : if a seller who claims having distilled the oil for sale, he should have conduced the wood selection, the grinded wood size, the soaking type and period, the distillation set up, the temperature curves, the process period, the oil collection periods, the curing technics, the fractions compilation rates (or assembling), and the aging period.

If the ending result achieved an oil who has caught the oleoresin smell, just send a wood chip with the bottle.

I found online comunity in both forums to be generaly good willing people with their sellers and between themselves too...

They are willing to promote their sellers because they want to help them and willing to please other consumers with advertising an oil they liked and I'm amongst the first here to do so.

All that to say that if it has oleoresin smell, client will tell others : Wow it really smells like the chip on my heater good job .

And I call everyone of us to be honnest : we already saw that in comments "it smells just like a chip on low heat" and I remember brother @jalil to be a specialist of that 😛 !

I want also to recall everyone on the Imperial oud chinese co2 (select extraction) episode in the so called "elswhere".

"Someone" said that it's just cheap oil just good for natural perfumery like you can find in Eden Botanicals website (obviously fatty total extraction).

@Faizal_p asked why such accusation (sapplings dont produce resin ect...) with no informations without acusing and asked for apologies (wich I think never came).

So there are not victims on one side, and murderers on another side (I got many private conversations from innocent sellers badmouthing others that will make lot of people throw out and I will keep this private things unrevealed).

I'm known here and "elsewhere" to be a polemicist I even chose that title, and I'm proud of it ! Even if it can hurt some people (and I'm sorry for this) because after polemics comes the debate and after the debate both people and sellers grow up.

Have a look on sellers, lot of them stopped talking too much on forums, went out from their comfort zone (or couch) to go to the field and craft something wich will make people shut, they are more busy now and I think it's a good thing for both sellers and consumers.

That was mainly the aim of all this mess.

You could say : yes F4R1d0uX but you are clearly unbalanced between sellers.

I was more offensive with sellers who were more agressive and I hope I wasnt unfair doing so.

As for my part the only ennemies I have are Shaytan and a part of myself I have to struggle against. And you can ask to the forum team that I was the first to defend other polemicists who stay now "elswhere" especialy when they attacked me because a forum, as a society in my humble opinion needs polemicists lol !

I consider who shows me contradiction as a helper who show me my own limits and help me pushing them farer.

Peace and don't forget to send a wood chip when you claim your oil has oleoresin smell 😉 !

 

[firdaous]

The Oleoresin theory: Marketing subjet or not? Each members can do his/her own idea but please always return to the basics :

1/ https://ac.els-cdn.com/S16746384176...t=1508491492_b38b348dad2d25610e3e790e44ed8996

2/ https://www.kyarazen.com/perspectives-on-the-rikkoku-gomi/#

I think the kodo master or the Arabic sultan will spend his time listening to the oil or the wood and does not care about the recent oleoresin term...