Oud of the Day

[LasLunas]

Zakir's Laos Pusong. In almost 100 degree weather this sort of disappeared but whenever I headed into a climate controlled room I got the berries that this one projects so strongly. It's an incredible oil for the price although I do find myself preferring ouds with more bite in their full spectrum.

HI,
I am not sure what "Bite" means, sorry but I am new to this. I see "Bite" used to describe various oils. Are there descriptors that might help me understand?
Thanks in advance for your time.

 

[LasLunas]

Spot on. Do that a couple of times and you'll start recognising the "signature" that each vendor presents.

Would it be fair to state that the distiller has more impact on the final composition than any other variable? One could start with fantastic wood but distill in a fashion to oxidize or combust the aromatics and produce a poor quality oil. Also, a talented distiller could have moderate quality starting wood and still produce an end product with horizontal and vertical dimension or complexity? Maybe???? Please Advise..

 

[Mr.P]

HI,
I am not sure what "Bite" means, sorry but I am new to this. I see "Bite" used to describe various oils. Are there descriptors that might help me understand?
Thanks in advance for your time.

Adjectives are a challenge unless we are passing the same oil around and all describing what we smell.

Here's my interpretation...
Some oils are very smooth, gentle, glossy in their notes. Others have a bit more toothiness or edge… more aggressive engagement with the olfactory system. Think rose otto vs. rose absolute, for an analogous example.

 

[LasLunas]

OK great - it occurred to me that might've seemed patronizing if you already knew all that. Wow those are tiny samples didn't realize folks were analyzing that little at a time.

Client supplied aliquots for analyses. This client uses at least 3 different Ph.D/Post Docs to supervise analyses, which is why I run with the OPLC-DA for data analyses in addition to supplying raw data per contract. Without being specific you have most likely deduced the why behind so much work - synthetic replication.... which is simply impossible in my professional opinion. However, it was an interesting project and definitely pulled me into the desire to learn about natural Oudh oils. There is so much complexity and variation, and it has not surprised me that the distiller has tremendous control over, or lack there of based on his/her experience or intent, upon the final composition.

So based on what I am hearing, for those samples that I have truly enjoyed I should grab a couple grams, or more, while available. Sounds like a plan....

Feel free to continue to advise me, I appreciate your time more than I can express.

 

[LasLunas]

Adjectives are a challenge unless we are passing the same oil around and all describing what we smell.

Here's my interpretation...
Some oils are very smooth, gentle, glossy in their notes. Others have a bit more toothiness or edge… more aggressive engagement with the olfactory system. Think rose otto vs. rose absolute, for an analogous example.

Got it, your example says it all. Thanks!

 

[LasLunas]

Today I am enjoying Agar Aura Cintaku.
It is 101 F today and Cintaku allows me to forget external heat and just float through the day. Glorious.
I better purchase before this disappears!

 

[AbuTominaga]

Would it be fair to state that the distiller has more impact on the final composition than any other variable? One could start with fantastic wood but distill in a fashion to oxidize or combust the aromatics and produce a poor quality oil. Also, a talented distiller could have moderate quality starting wood and still produce an end product with horizontal and vertical dimension or complexity? Maybe???? Please Advise..

Raw materials come first. The distiller is the artist that shapes the raw materials into the end oil with his signature and vision.

The distiller will always be limited to the quality of raw materials used.

Moreover, the outcome (oil) of the same raw material (oud wood) will vary in character.

Personally, if I smell a random oil that we didn't distill , I'd have a clear idea on those 2 parameters at play. The wood grade will show, and the level of artistry of the distiller will also show.

 

[LasLunas]

Raw materials come first. The distiller is the artist that shapes the raw materials into the end oil with his signature and vision.

The distiller will always be limited to the quality of raw materials used.

Moreover, the outcome (oil) of the same raw material (oud wood) will vary in character.

Personally, if I smell a random oil that we didn't distill , I'd have a clear idea on those 2 parameters at play. The wood grade will show, and the level of artistry of the distiller will also show.

Thank you. Great insight for me to understand.
It is fair to say that if a single, homogeneous batch of wood was split be tween different distillers that a trained nose would be able to discern origins of starting material? Or would the distiller impact mask origins of starting materials?
Apologies in advance for lack of knowledge, just trying to understand. I don't want to pigeon hole myself with a single distiller or two, but I want to understand if this is psychological paralysis , or a true phenomenon.

Thanks again for your patience!

 

[aoudgauze]

HI,
I am not sure what "Bite" means, sorry but I am new to this. I see "Bite" used to describe various oils. Are there descriptors that might help me understand?
Thanks in advance for your time.

I would explain by using yet another metaphor: Ouds/oils/perfumes that create a bit of friction have bite. Anything that stops me in my tracks and makes me pause to consider if/how/when to proceed. Most simplistically, ouds with heavy fermented notes, barn, soil, etc, even leather, more agrestic elements, have bite to them, but it's true as @Mr.P said that it could also be a question of a beautiful rose with some toothy edge to it.

The Zakir smells like blueberries and has a kind of fruit syrup, gummy bear, candied element. I sat in a car after applying it and a total stranger I had just met said "it smells good in here." Most of my ouds with bite wouldn't elicit that response, especially from a stranger directly speaking to me in a trapped environment. In public I've gotten "it smells strong" or straight up "it smells like $@%#."

 

[LasLunas]

I would explain by using yet another metaphor: Ouds/oils/perfumes that create a bit of friction have bite. Anything that stops me in my tracks and makes me pause to consider if/how/when to proceed. Most simplistically, ouds with heavy fermented notes, barn, soil, etc, even leather, more agrestic elements, have bite to them, but it's true as @Mr.P said that it could also be a question of a beautiful rose with some toothy edge to it.

The Zakir smells like blueberries and has a kind of fruit syrup, gummy bear, candied element. I sat in a car after applying it and a total stranger I had just met said "it smells good in here." Most of my ouds with bite wouldn't elicit that response, especially from a stranger directly speaking to me in a trapped environment. In public I've gotten "it smells strong" or straight up "it smells like $@%#."

Thank you for adding to the descriptors. I can almost feel what both of you have stated.
Perfect.

 

[AlHind Oud]

Thank you. Great insight for me to understand.
It is fair to say that if a single, homogeneous batch of wood was split be tween different distillers that a trained nose would be able to discern origins of starting material? Or would the distiller impact mask origins of starting materials?
Apologies in advance for lack of knowledge, just trying to understand. I don't want to pigeon hole myself with a single distiller or two, but I want to understand if this is psychological paralysis , or a true phenomenon.

Thanks again for your patience!

A trained nose can often detect the origin of the starting material even if the same wood is distilled by different distillers. However, the distiller technique and setup can alter/mask certain aspects of wood. Mostly top notes, texture of the oil. Think wood as an instrument and distiller as a musician.

 

[AbuTominaga]

Thank you. Great insight for me to understand.
It is fair to say that if a single, homogeneous batch of wood was split be tween different distillers that a trained nose would be able to discern origins of starting material? Or would the distiller impact mask origins of starting materials?
Apologies in advance for lack of knowledge, just trying to understand. I don't want to pigeon hole myself with a single distiller or two, but I want to understand if this is psychological paralysis , or a true phenomenon.

Thanks again for your patience!

A nose with a mid level experience would be able to tell the origin of the wood. You're in a community of people who swipe oud daily 🙂

A srilankan wood, (no matter who distilled it, and with all character variations in the end result of the various distiller), will have the srilankan signature. One would tell it's not Thai, it's not Borneo and it's not Merauke.

With more experience, one would be able to tell which species even, more or less. (but that's another rabbit hole to dive into. It's not as easy for many and different reasons).

Some profiles are tricky, but it's the exception rather than the norm.

 

[Sipy]

I would explain by using yet another metaphor: Ouds/oils/perfumes that create a bit of friction have bite. Anything that stops me in my tracks and makes me pause to consider if/how/when to proceed. Most simplistically, ouds with heavy fermented notes, barn, soil, etc, even leather, more agrestic elements, have bite to them, but it's true as @Mr.P said that it could also be a question of a beautiful rose with some toothy edge to it.

The Zakir smells like blueberries and has a kind of fruit syrup, gummy bear, candied element. I sat in a car after applying it and a total stranger I had just met said "it smells good in here." Most of my ouds with bite wouldn't elicit that response, especially from a stranger directly speaking to me in a trapped environment. In public I've gotten "it smells strong" or straight up "it smells like $@%#."

I likewise enjoy that Laos. Don't find it super heavy on blueberries - I typically don't enjoy "sweet" candy oils. This one rides the line really well. To me it has this honeyed complex sugar nuance rather sugar gummy bears if that makes sense. Saffron honey berry.

 

[LasLunas]

A nose with a mid level experience would be able to tell the origin of the wood. You're in a community of people who swipe oud daily 🙂

A srilankan wood, (no matter who distilled it, and with all character variations in the end result of the various distiller), will have the srilankan signature. One would tell it's not Thai, it's not Borneo and it's not Merauke.

With more experience, one would be able to tell which species even, more or less. (but that's another rabbit hole to dive into. It's not as easy for many and different reasons).

Some profiles are tricky, but it's the exception rather than the norm.

Awesome guidance. Truly appreciated.

 

[LasLunas]

A trained nose can often detect the origin of the starting material even if the same wood is distilled by different distillers. However, the distiller technique and setup can alter/mask certain aspects of wood. Mostly top notes, texture of the oil. Think wood as an instrument and distiller as a musician.

Beautiful analogy. I can understand this. Thank You

 

[Mr.P]

Beautiful analogy. I can understand this. Thank You

That is a GREAT analogy. Lots of good insight in the replies above!

One funny twist on this. There are some notes that are distinct enough that to an untrained nose they might seem like a regional note, but which are in fact caused by the way the wood is treated before, during and after distillation (which is something I believe you already know!). I am sharing my knowledge as a consumer and student, not as a distiller or expert:

First one is the whole barnyard profile, which is a result of soaking wood for extended times before distilling. I have smelled similar barnyard notes in agallocha from India and sinensis from Hainan, and there was a point along the way where I was confusing fermentation and soaking notes for notes as reflecting the nature or species or regional subtype of the wood itself.

Another very distinctive secondary note that I used to confuse for a regional know is a kind of phenolic or smoky quality which is a result of how temperature is regulated in the boiler, based on my understanding. Certain types of distillation add very distinct choya-like notes. Smells hot, almost smoky... I have two different oils from Aceh, one is gently distilled and the other is like a choya. They seem like totally different types at first but the common dna is there if you study them.

 

[SteveE]

Learning so much. What is a minimum ("ballpark") original starting quantity of quality resinated wood needed to successfully run a distillation that produces, say, a Tola of oil? On average.

 

[LasLunas]

That is a GREAT analogy. Lots of good insight in the replies above!

One funny twist on this. There are some notes that are distinct enough that to an untrained nose they might seem like a regional note, but which are in fact caused by the way the wood is treated before, during and after distillation (which is something I believe you already know!). I am sharing my knowledge as a consumer and student, not as a distiller or expert:

First one is the whole barnyard profile, which is a result of soaking wood for extended times before distilling. I have smelled similar barnyard notes in agallocha from India and sinensis from Hainan, and there was a point along the way where I was confusing fermentation and soaking notes for notes as reflecting the nature or species or regional subtype of the wood itself.

Another very distinctive secondary note that I used to confuse for a regional know is a kind of phenolic or smoky quality which is a result of how temperature is regulated in the boiler, based on my understanding. Certain types of distillation add very distinct choya-like notes. Smells hot, almost smoky... I have two different oils from Aceh, one is gently distilled and the other is like a choya. They seem like totally different types at first but the common dna is there if you study them.

From an academic viewpoint I completely understand the temperature ramps, etc., during distillation and creation of new species or combustion, however one choses to think of this reaction. Also, I believe, again academically, that the presoak while a critical step can be detrimental via growth of bacterial colonies and fungal spores, etc., which typically produce characteristic aromas. So if I may summarize for my nonstop mind, certain "regional notes" might be due to actual aroma profile of the tree species, environment, etc., yet others might be a result of regional distillation styles.

I've studied and mutated bacteria and viruses, completely understand the common DNA or RNA sequences, and appreciate the same in plants. The resin is the result of a secondary metabolic response, is this correct? And those metabolites would be common to a species within a region pending the infecting fungus, Yes? No?

So - I can think of it as a species/variety or cultivar in a region will have specific "DNA" response attributes to infection which produce the aroma profile of the resin. Therefore, while the profile of that resin is inherent the process of distillation may render an oil with the aroma profile intact, somewhat intact, changed into combustion products or other derivatives. Nonetheless experience will allow one to discern the region or location of wood growth.

Try to help me out and let me know if this is approximately true. Also add details as you see fit, I do not wish to be coddled. I am seeking truth.
Thanks

 

[theaphilosophia]

I have been burning the Vathimi Raja pieces from the distillation and today I decided to pair them. Vathimi Raja oil and Vathima Raja chips

Welcome to the Maldives

View attachment 47810

I'm very grateful to have this oil and wood. Really incredible stuff!

 

[LasLunas]

That is a GREAT analogy. Lots of good insight in the replies above!

One funny twist on this. There are some notes that are distinct enough that to an untrained nose they might seem like a regional note, but which are in fact caused by the way the wood is treated before, during and after distillation (which is something I believe you already know!). I am sharing my knowledge as a consumer and student, not as a distiller or expert:

First one is the whole barnyard profile, which is a result of soaking wood for extended times before distilling. I have smelled similar barnyard notes in agallocha from India and sinensis from Hainan, and there was a point along the way where I was confusing fermentation and soaking notes for notes as reflecting the nature or species or regional subtype of the wood itself.

Another very distinctive secondary note that I used to confuse for a regional know is a kind of phenolic or smoky quality which is a result of how temperature is regulated in the boiler, based on my understanding. Certain types of distillation add very distinct choya-like notes. Smells hot, almost smoky... I have two different oils from Aceh, one is gently distilled and the other is like a choya. They seem like totally different types at first but the common dna is there if you study them.

Makes perfect sense to me. I am thinking that there is so much information that 10 years might not be a reasonable period of time to assimilate the info.
I am going out on a limb here... is it reasonable to assume that the technique of artificial inoculation and early harvest yields a less complex composition? Or no correlation exits?
Thank you again in advance