@Rai Munir I will give all my ouds to sit with the latest sheikh Ahmad Alawi for a while...he lived at Mostaganem very near from my parents city.
I recommend you the book from Martin lings one of his students: “Muhammad: his life based on the earliest sources” A true masterpiece!!!
My dear brother, I read almost all the books by shaekh Martin Lings. I would have given my life to be in Shaekh Alvi's company even for a minutest fraction of a second, and yet it would have been a bargain. I came to know about Shaekh Alvi (R.A) through Mrtin Lings' "A Sufi Saint of the Twentieth Century', and later I read all writings by Frithjof Schuon and Rene Guenon, and Titus Burckhardt.

Yes, this city Mostaghanem has been mentioned a lot in that book. You are a blessed one indeed.
[Ouddict.com] Oud Distillation
 
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Great post @Rasoul Salehi.

@Rai Munir just to clarify dear sir, I did not leave from any bad will but simply am choosing to spend my time a little differently - it takes a huge effort for me to write the posts as I try my best to make them useful, and always try to keep the one true enemy as restrained as possible (you know who I am talking about). I must make sure I spend more time with the One who is the source of all Beauty before I post frequently again, otherwise priorities are upside down.

Apologies to all if the philosophical seemed to be unrelated to the subject but for me they are the most relevant and necessary points.

I am always an optimist where the forums are concerned. Take the most beautiful oud the world has ever known - the human soul is infinitely more beautiful. I am sure there will be many more discussions, debates, arguments, polemicists and the like. If we believe in each other's fundamental goodness, improvement is always possible.

Hope the conversation is very fruitful, God willing!


Just to be clear, the problematic posts I referred to earlier this morning are not on this forum. Shabby and Rasouls polite and reasoned responses are welcomed on this forum as are they.
 
My dear brother, I read almost all the books by shaekh Martin Lings. I would have given my life to be in Shaekh Alvi's company even for a minutest fraction of a second, and yet it would have been a bargain. I came to know about Shaekh Alvi (R.A) through Mrtin Lings' "A Sufi Saint of the Twentieth Century', and later I read all writings by Frithjof Schuon and Rene Guenon, and Titus Burckhardt.

Yes, this city Mostaghanem has been mentioned a lot in that book. You are a blessed one indeed.
View attachment 1854

Dear brother @Rai Munir, you may be interested to know Martin Lings stayed in my grandfather's house in Sri Lanka. My grandfather read and loved all those books, but my grandmother, who is from a village, has no interest in such books and never read them. Yet when I ask her about Martin Lings, her face changes completely and she says 'his face was like the moon, I have never seen such a peaceful man.'

I have a small amount of Khus which he himself used to use. The notes are incredible - sweet fresh earthy green, a touch of camphor and mint, and waves of fennel and aniseed.
 
Dear brother @Rai Munir, you may be interested to know Martin Lings stayed in my grandfather's house in Sri Lanka. My grandfather read and loved all those books, but my grandmother, who is from a village, has no interest in such books and never read them. Yet when I ask her about Martin Lings, her face changes completely and she says 'his face was like the moon, I have never seen such a peaceful man.'

I have a small amount of Khus which he himself used to use. The notes are incredible - sweet fresh earthy green, a touch of camphor and mint, and waves of fennel and aniseed.

His grave is in England - he is buried in his house garden. I know people murmur about his perennialism, but I think these matters should be left between him and his Lord. I have a good opinion of him.
 
@F4R1d0uX Thanks for sharing the information. To resin or not to resin is the question. Shut up and enjoy the oil is the answer. Ahaha. Who the hell wants the avengers and the Vendor brigade to spoil the name and forum fun. Shaming and endless verbal diarrhoea. Work on your oils masters and servants and let us peasants sleep in peace. I need a dose of some Gaharu Boya now. Is it the next big Oud ? Only time and greed will tell. Philosophy and science. Yeah. Man has reached Moon faster than real oud reached the Oud lover.
 
@F4R1d0uX Thanks for sharing the information. To resin or not to resin is the question. Shut up and enjoy the oil is the answer. Ahaha. Who the hell wants the avengers and the Vendor brigade to spoil the name. Shaming and endless verbal diarrhoea. Work on your oils masters and servants and let us peasants sleep in peace. I need a dose of some Gaharu Boya now. Is it the next big Oud ? Only time and greed will tell.

Most welcome brother !
Yeh war useless even if people clame they distill resin, no pb as teacher said : resin without oil has almost not smell so they can turn their liars the way they want truth is on the field not on forums inhabited by gurus blind followers in lack of life excitement and normal people as society is in general.

Who wants to take it take and who wants to leave it leave.

You know brother, I hope I will never sell what makes me a man against clients who will reward by buying time to time and send oils samples to the guru and that's the most important for me :Thumbsup:

After this forum is open and I wish it open even to guru soldiers who maintain their "resin word game" while guru saying openly : I got the power to transform resin in oil, that makes the oil smell better, that makes me able to reduce cost price.

Ok good job Midas :Thumbsup:.
Soon buaya gaharu into kinam which can be sold as kinam because it smells kinam as I saw on one oil description :Roflmao:.

Peace brother @Nikhil S and Enjoy :Thumbsup:
 
when the children of Adam give themselves the right to speak about another humans intent, this is peak of arrogance the lowest spiritual places, because forgotten is his faults as though he has been guaranteed paradise. Let the children of Adam ponder his own place in the open plane on the day of accounts.



@Rasoul Salehi

I will begin my reply by sharing a quote for you, which I am sure you will appreciate.

سعدیا شیرازی پندی مدی کمزاد را کمزاد اگر عاقل شود گردن زند استاد را

I can appreciate your sentiments, unfortunately the nature of the online oudh scene (as you would have witnessed over the last 24hours) is such that regardless of my experience, reviewing another vendors oil will be disaster. When people give themselves the right to speak about your intentions that's when you know that there is no benefit taking such initiatives and as Saadi said, when the arrogantly ignorant become 'learned' they chop the teachers head.

I can see the thread side tracking to more interesting discussions such as Rijal Allah, the men of God, so I will quickly summarise my points;

A. I think it is important that this issue is discussed in clarity and this is not aimed at any individual, but rather the credibility of the concepts based on experience and science.

B. Oleoresins by scientific definition are an extract of resin by way of solvent extraction where the solvent is evaporated and what remains is resin in an essential or fatty oil solution. Oleoresin can occur in plants naturally as well, it would be a thick substance, nearly solid, however this is rare in oudh wood. In oudh we find nearly always solid resin and oil, two separate elements. With the exception of a few species such as some types of Kynam and white walla patta.

C. When picking up a oudh chip and smelling it, one is smelling a combination of aromas; wood fibre + trapped oil + resin and that is the closest one will get to smelling the 'oleoresin' of oudh. The scent that one experiences at that moment that is the scent of the oudh 'oleoresin', usually very subtle and quiet different to the oudh oil.

D. Oleoresin itself is a extraction based product and that in itself already has gone through chemical changes as it is separated with a solvent from the wood fibres, therefore utilising oleoresin as a reference point to compare a distilled oudh oil is like comparing coca cola with fanta with the aim of trying to determine purity of the water, both are changed and moving parameters.

E. When looking at the use of the term 'auxiliary' from the art of distillation perspective than none of the notes that naturally form in that process can be called auxiliary.

F. It would be more accurate to say that the final oil is an expression of the wood and the resin within the wood rather than to claim that a part of it is distilled/converted from oleoresin, whilst other parts are auxiliary, because during the distillation process many new bonds are produced that did not exist in the wood e.g sesquiterpene class called Guaiene. The structure becomes more of an Azulene type which changes odour profile and also gives a darker colour to the resulting oil.

G. Genre of oudh oils outside of the classic reference of Oudh can be developed such as floral oudh, fruity oudh , each having distinct parameters specific to them.

H. There is nothing wrong to say "smell like resin" or "smells resinous" or "smells like oleoresin" the issue is when oils being churned out from 'oleoresin' and resin, with the ability to pin point 'auxiliary' when everything in the distillation process is auxiliary.

@F4R1d0uX thanks for sharing, that is also what my experience has shown.
 
some oleo-resin, anyone?
View attachment 1804

I have been getting a fair few questions regarding 'what is the oleoresin?', or the scent of the oleoresin and it's relationship to 'auxiliary' notes.

I know this is probably going to get a few people all ruffled up, however I think it is important that this issue is discussed in clarity and this is not aimed at any individual, but rather the credibility of the concepts based on experience and science.

Oleoresins by scientific definition are an extract of resin by way of solvent extraction where the solvent is evaporated and what remains is resin in an essential or fatty oil solution. Oleoresin can occur in plants naturally as well, it would be a thick substance, nearly solid, however this is rare in oudh wood. In oudh we find nearly always solid resin and oil, two separate elements. With the exception of a few species such as some types of Kynam and white walla patta.

When picking up a oudh chip and smelling it, one is smelling a combination of aromas; wood fibre + trapped oil + resin and that is the closest one will get to smelling the 'oleoresin' of oudh. The scent that one experiences at that moment that is the scent of the oudh 'oleoresin', usually very subtle and quiet different to the oudh oil.

When oudh or any biomatter is distilled during the distillation process there is a transfer of some bonds and formation of some new bonds in the distillate on the other end. The new bonds that form are usually of much longer chemical chains and more complex in nature than those that existed in the wood. This combination of new bonds and transferred bonds is what gives the oils it's complexity.

Here is where the recently coined use of the term auxiliary for the essential oil is inaccurate. There are many new compounds formed in the essential oil that didnt exist in the wood resin, in fact there are new bonds created that do not exist in the extracted oleoresin. These new compounds are not formed due to bad practice but rather due to how the oil compounds behave during distillation. It is part and parcel of the distillation process even at lab conditions. As such when looking at the use of the term 'auxiliary' from the art of distillation perspective than none of the notes that naturally form in that process can be called auxiliary.

If bad practice of fungal soaking, acid washing, dirty stream water etc is used that is a separate discussion and has nothing to do with the art of distillation, just like we cant blame medicine for fake doctors. The reality is during distillation where there is h2o and a biomatter involved, even in pristine glass and lab conditions, new compounds that were none existent in the wood will form at the other end.

The second issue is, oleoresin itself is a extraction based product and that in itself already has gone through chemical changes as it is separated with a solvent from the wood fibres, therefore utilising oleoresin as a reference point to compare a distilled oudh oil is like comparing coca cola with fanta with the aim of trying to determine purity of the water, both are changed and moving parameters.
After reading on both forums many different thinks on the topic i found this to be the most satysfaying explanation for me.
 
Dear brother @Rai Munir, you may be interested to know Martin Lings stayed in my grandfather's house in Sri Lanka. My grandfather read and loved all those books, but my grandmother, who is from a village, has no interest in such books and never read them. Yet when I ask her about Martin Lings, her face changes completely and she says 'his face was like the moon, I have never seen such a peaceful man.'

I have a small amount of Khus which he himself used to use. The notes are incredible - sweet fresh earthy green, a touch of camphor and mint, and waves of fennel and aniseed.
Wow! Beautiful. Dearest Shabby, after reading thousands of books, I came to the point NOT BOOKS, BUT MASTER is what matters. Worse prison is books, and I sentenced my own self twenty years to stay imprisoned. Now I have liberated myself.
Say my salaam to your grandfather.

@Ouddict, you are right. Perennialism, Traditionalism and Fundamental Unity of Regions: though differences of opinions are there, Shaekh Martin Lings' loves for the Transcendent emanates from him.

@firdaous, very true. His face is so divine. Intellect and innocence, and a delicate smile.

Shaekh Abū Bakr Sirāj ad-Dīn (Martin Lings)
[Ouddict.com] Oud Distillation

[Ouddict.com] Oud Distillation
 
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Smelt the truth in the oil ?

View attachment 1846 View attachment 1846 View attachment 1847 View attachment 1848 View attachment 1850 View attachment 1851 View attachment 1852

Thus comes from who has few time to talk because distilling all time ...

Now okay one has discovered super technics to transform resin in oil.

He said resin with oil removed = almost not smell, we have sellers and followers saying : thank you sidi I closed my eyes and resin made me close to pass away ...

Now what to do with this ? My teacher is a lyier ? If you think I advise all blind followers to think twice because you may have praised his oils under different labels.

Peace ...
Yes but you know nothing about:

[Ouddict.com] Oud Distillation
 
when the children of Adam give themselves the right to speak about another humans intent, this is peak of arrogance the lowest spiritual places, because forgotten is his faults as though he has been guaranteed paradise. Let the children of Adam ponder his own place in the open plane on the day of accounts.



@Rasoul Salehi

I will begin my reply by sharing a quote for you, which I am sure you will appreciate.

سعدیا شیرازی پندی مدی کمزاد را کمزاد اگر عاقل شود گردن زند استاد را

I can appreciate your sentiments, unfortunately the nature of the online oudh scene (as you would have witnessed over the last 24hours) is such that regardless of my experience, reviewing another vendors oil will be disaster. When people give themselves the right to speak about your intentions that's when you know that there is no benefit taking such initiatives and as Saadi said, when the arrogantly ignorant become 'learned' they chop the teachers head.

I can see the thread side tracking to more interesting discussions such as Rijal Allah, the men of God, so I will quickly summarise my points;

A. I think it is important that this issue is discussed in clarity and this is not aimed at any individual, but rather the credibility of the concepts based on experience and science.

B. Oleoresins by scientific definition are an extract of resin by way of solvent extraction where the solvent is evaporated and what remains is resin in an essential or fatty oil solution. Oleoresin can occur in plants naturally as well, it would be a thick substance, nearly solid, however this is rare in oudh wood. In oudh we find nearly always solid resin and oil, two separate elements. With the exception of a few species such as some types of Kynam and white walla patta.

C. When picking up a oudh chip and smelling it, one is smelling a combination of aromas; wood fibre + trapped oil + resin and that is the closest one will get to smelling the 'oleoresin' of oudh. The scent that one experiences at that moment that is the scent of the oudh 'oleoresin', usually very subtle and quiet different to the oudh oil.

D. Oleoresin itself is a extraction based product and that in itself already has gone through chemical changes as it is separated with a solvent from the wood fibres, therefore utilising oleoresin as a reference point to compare a distilled oudh oil is like comparing coca cola with fanta with the aim of trying to determine purity of the water, both are changed and moving parameters.

E. When looking at the use of the term 'auxiliary' from the art of distillation perspective than none of the notes that naturally form in that process can be called auxiliary.

F. It would be more accurate to say that the final oil is an expression of the wood and the resin within the wood rather than to claim that a part of it is distilled/converted from oleoresin, whilst other parts are auxiliary, because during the distillation process many new bonds are produced that did not exist in the wood e.g sesquiterpene class called Guaiene. The structure becomes more of an Azulene type which changes odour profile and also gives a darker colour to the resulting oil.

G. Genre of oudh oils outside of the classic reference of Oudh can be developed such as floral oudh, fruity oudh , each having distinct parameters specific to them.

H. There is nothing wrong to say "smell like resin" or "smells resinous" or "smells like oleoresin" the issue is when oils being churned out from 'oleoresin' and resin, with the ability to pin point 'auxiliary' when everything in the distillation process is auxiliary.

@F4R1d0uX thanks for sharing, that is also what my experience has shown.

کمزاد اگر عاقل شود گردن زند استاد را

Respected most Jawed, :thumbsup:. Comprehensive answer it is. Just a single verse suffices to grasp the real cause of 'arrogance'. "کمزاد- low breed"!

Your view-point is well expressed, and well-established. If some one contradicts, it is his/ her freedom of choice which is beauty. If some one broadsides you out of being arrogant or ignorant (though both are siblings), it is again freedom of choice, which is ugliness. The same thing, but the user reflects as per one's nature. You stayed calm, it is all.

Your grip on discourse is stunning. :clapping:
 
Most welcome brother !
Yeh war useless even if people clame they distill resin, no pb as teacher said : resin without oil has almost not smell so they can turn their liars the way they want truth is on the field not on forums inhabited by gurus blind followers in lack of life excitement and normal people as society is in general.

Who wants to take it take and who wants to leave it leave.

You know brother, I hope I will never sell what makes me a man against clients who will reward by buying time to time and send oils samples to the guru and that's the most important for me :Thumbsup:

After this forum is open and I wish it open even to guru soldiers who maintain their "resin word game" while guru saying openly : I got the power to transform resin in oil, that makes the oil smell better, that makes me able to reduce cost price.

Ok good job Midas :Thumbsup:.
Soon buaya gaharu into kinam which can be sold as kinam because it smells kinam as I saw on one oil description :Roflmao:.

Peace brother @Nikhil S and Enjoy :Thumbsup:

Sorry if this is said already and I have missed it. My own question is not about the resin but the oil trapped in the resin. Does the master have a say in the quality and scent of this oil trapped inside the resin vs. The oil free in the wood? Does he believe this oil trapped is different smelling?

I think the reason(s) these genre of oils are so different is a combo of techniques and not just the scent of the oil that got u trapped from the resin. I am trying to determine if it is mostly technique or is ir really the oil in the resin that is of such vastly different style.

At the end even if I don't Find the answer is fine. The product is definitely unique and enjoyable and sometime the mood calls for it. I would just enjoy the oils that much more knowing about the "how" behind them. Not a great example (sorry. Brain dead. Terrible twos. Hyper active boy. Enough said) but: Much like If I had been given two virtually identical shirts and told one is made by hand only and hand of well lived well paid 5th generation tailor vs machine made. Even though rh quality is the same I will enjoy the artisanal made one more. Significantly more.
 
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when the children of Adam give themselves the right to speak about another humans intent, this is peak of arrogance the lowest spiritual places, because forgotten is his faults as though he has been guaranteed paradise. Let the children of Adam ponder his own place in the open plane on the day of accounts.



@Rasoul Salehi

I will begin my reply by sharing a quote for you, which I am sure you will appreciate.

سعدیا شیرازی پندی مدی کمزاد را کمزاد اگر عاقل شود گردن زند استاد را

I can appreciate your sentiments, unfortunately the nature of the online oudh scene (as you would have witnessed over the last 24hours) is such that regardless of my experience, reviewing another vendors oil will be disaster. When people give themselves the right to speak about your intentions that's when you know that there is no benefit taking such initiatives and as Saadi said, when the arrogantly ignorant become 'learned' they chop the teachers head.

I can see the thread side tracking to more interesting discussions such as Rijal Allah, the men of God, so I will quickly summarise my points;

A. I think it is important that this issue is discussed in clarity and this is not aimed at any individual, but rather the credibility of the concepts based on experience and science.

B. Oleoresins by scientific definition are an extract of resin by way of solvent extraction where the solvent is evaporated and what remains is resin in an essential or fatty oil solution. Oleoresin can occur in plants naturally as well, it would be a thick substance, nearly solid, however this is rare in oudh wood. In oudh we find nearly always solid resin and oil, two separate elements. With the exception of a few species such as some types of Kynam and white walla patta.

C. When picking up a oudh chip and smelling it, one is smelling a combination of aromas; wood fibre + trapped oil + resin and that is the closest one will get to smelling the 'oleoresin' of oudh. The scent that one experiences at that moment that is the scent of the oudh 'oleoresin', usually very subtle and quiet different to the oudh oil.

D. Oleoresin itself is a extraction based product and that in itself already has gone through chemical changes as it is separated with a solvent from the wood fibres, therefore utilising oleoresin as a reference point to compare a distilled oudh oil is like comparing coca cola with fanta with the aim of trying to determine purity of the water, both are changed and moving parameters.

E. When looking at the use of the term 'auxiliary' from the art of distillation perspective than none of the notes that naturally form in that process can be called auxiliary.

F. It would be more accurate to say that the final oil is an expression of the wood and the resin within the wood rather than to claim that a part of it is distilled/converted from oleoresin, whilst other parts are auxiliary, because during the distillation process many new bonds are produced that did not exist in the wood e.g sesquiterpene class called Guaiene. The structure becomes more of an Azulene type which changes odour profile and also gives a darker colour to the resulting oil.

G. Genre of oudh oils outside of the classic reference of Oudh can be developed such as floral oudh, fruity oudh , each having distinct parameters specific to them.

H. There is nothing wrong to say "smell like resin" or "smells resinous" or "smells like oleoresin" the issue is when oils being churned out from 'oleoresin' and resin, with the ability to pin point 'auxiliary' when everything in the distillation process is auxiliary.

@F4R1d0uX thanks for sharing, that is also what my experience has shown.

Understood and your stance respected
 
If the confidence and muscle flexing was reflected in their oils, none of this Oud groupism would have happened. Theory is another thing. Philosophy and Spiritual imclination is a good thing. But how does it affect the oil is the concern of every hard earning man here. Half the of the vendors oils smell the same bought from same taiwan whatever distillers. There s clearly lobbying going on both forums. Children of Adam are on both forums. Master vendors reselling oils on both forums is also universal truth. Sorry to say but to my unbiased mind it is really ridiculous and your conscience even allows to make claims is truly outstanding. Apart from a few distillers NO one even has their signature to oils. Peace. If I was a traditional distiller I wouldnt even bother about what the others are doing. I would make my oils speak. Truth is no matter how much theory you have in you you guys are never sure how the oil turns out to be ! If someone really wants us to learn show us the process of distillation with every Kyara Kinam you guys release. So that we learn and a state of equilibrium is reached. Otherwise its simply blind trust. And it means nothing where true mettle is concerned. And lets not even talk about the pricing of thw top vendors. Its horrendous. The "distraction technique" is also quite evident. Talk about Oleoresin, Chinese woods, temp curves....its fancy and even local SE distillers seem to be masters of that. The talk on "Oleoresin" could have been finished in a single post but we have porbably more than 100 messages and of course with direct/indirect legpulling of certain Vendor/s only to be joined by members who turned non-believers after burning their hands in the "Oud Investment process". Truth is we as a community are tired of seeing these meaningless fighta and kitty party quarrels. Why dont you give us a reason to cheera for once ? Give us one of those Kinam or Sultanis whatever in 2017 at affordable prices by tweaking your megamachines ! Thats what we want. We dont want Oud talk. We want Oud or if possible Oudh.
 
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