m.arif
I am not sure what you are referring too regarding not suitable for burning? do you mean low quality not worth burning? Certain qualities one does not burn as it isnt worth burning.
I heard some people saying that woods that are too high grade are not suitable for burning. I'm not sure they meant it'd be a waste to burn better keep for decoration, or they meant when burning it not much good stuff gets released due to too much resin.


Thank you for the clear example.


Regarding tweaks to the distillation process, like temperature curves, continuous or stop and resume cooking style, etc.. Is it a scentifically documented steps that one can learn from research papers/books or it's a knowledge of discovery when distillers trial and error / experiment? It seems the mastery of knowledge of these more meticulous elements are what differentiates between the end result of an experienced and new distiller. To know which tweak would cause what changes in the end product I mean.. Would you agree @Al Shareef Oud ?


And then comes the post distilling stage. The curing stage. All I know is it's to get the water out of the oil. The methods for this, I haven't found much material yet..and does different methods of curing cause different end results? Maybe @Adam and the guys from IO can share their experiences about this as well.
 
My 2p worth @m.arif - The "king grade" wood like al sharif mentioned is economically and physically unviable to cook from. Oil and resin are both found within the agarwood tree, and the ratio of oil generally increases when the tree has produced resin. therefore you can cook wood with no resin and still produce oil as trace amounts will be present however chipping and grinding resinated wood will enable more oil to be extracted. When you get to extremely resinated wood its very difficult even after grinding and cooking to separate the oil enough from the super structure of the cell walls/ lignin. From our experience cooking woods which just about sink is the very highest grades that will still yield a good amount of oil, above that there's no point, below that is where 99% of oil extraction is performed. Our Zenith range we try to use wood which is majority resinated, dark and is suitable for burning. Our normal range uses wood which is yellow/ brown, some visible resination but cooked with good practice and techniques which maximise the potential within the wood. Temperature fluctuations, soak times, equipment etc these are the parameters a distiller can change to affect aroma. We like to have a detailed discussion with the distiller regarding particular techniques they can use for a distillation, the end goal, what notes we'd like them to try to capture and any feedback we may have from clients etc.


Curing is also an art in itself, yes removing the water is the number one aim however as you let an oil settle and how you let it settle can determine what aroma it will take on. We agree with Taha on this philosophy whereby we like to release the oil at it's most playful stage, where the sharpness of distillation has subsided and the oil is in a state of flux. You guys can then enjoy the aging process for yourself and revisit, each time expecting something slightly different.


Adam and Al Sharif can clarify further as per their experience but this is what we have found.


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Many things to discuss…


Let me first share what Ensar himself had to say about the issue that caused some "differences of opinionâ€:


"Adam was saying 'you need to smell the wood' – I can tell you right now, I don't need to smell anything – just seeing the video, the thickness and hardness of that wood I know as I do that I am alive at this moment, that wood was 100% wild. Look at the thickness of that resin, the sturdiness, and how it flies the minute it is chopped up; cultivated wood NEVER does that. It is like mush. Soft, pliable, flimsy stuff that can never possess that kind of hardness… I can vouch for Adam that the wood in that video is wild, even as I am absolutely certain the wood used in my Centennial was 100% wild. NO cultivated wood can ever smell like that, and NO cultivated wood can ever be that solid. Look at the pictures he points out as an illustration in my Thai Kodo page: all the wood is flimsy, irregular thin circles that are pliable, easy to squash into pieces with your hands, or to chop up with a cleaver, offering no resistance. Then look at how hard and sturdy the logs in Adam's video are, how they fly off when hit with the cleaver..... Cultivated wood is never that hard, or thick, or solid.â€
 
Thank you Sharif for sharing your approach. I guess we all only wish that one day you may change your business model and share with us some detailed pictures and videos…


because as you know I enjoy to be a part or to at least to observe the process of cooking agarwood oil just as much as I enjoy the good oud oil itself.
 
@Adam,


Adam have you ever think of a tobacco infusion oil? I think maybe adding some fresh tobacco leafs in the pot with some organic Thai wood may become nice oil.


Well what I know about distillation maybe is going to be some terrible oil, just to me sounds very interesting I love good Thai or Hindi oil with a nice tobacco aroma. Speciali Thai that smells like pipe cherry tobacco.
 
@ Peter,


yes sure… we received some inquiries about plum… vanilla… and tobacco infusions…


however, these notes are quite often originally present in oud oil…


they are one of our favourite notes too… you may find them in Indian or Cambodian oud oil…


we will offer oils focused on these very notes in the future and of course may do some experiment with infusions and offer it as well if the result will be successful…
 
@Adam, bhanny


you raise some points in your response which I will address by grouping them into topics so that the discussion can be academic rather than pure individual convictions.


1. Properties of wild oudh wood vs properties of cultivated oudh wood.


2. Resin formation in natural wood vs resin formation in cultivated wood.


10 years ago there wasn't much researched based literature on the topic of agarwood, however today there is a growing library, and I am glad you brought up these points because discussing them will shed more light on why these logs form the way they do and how they differ from agarwood formations in the wild.


1. Properties of wild oudh wood vs properties of cultivated oudh wood.


According to Prof. Robert A. Blanchette at the University of Minnesota whilst referencing Gibson defines the Aquilaria and Gyrinops as tropical hardwood trees in the family Thymelaeaceae, he then further elaborates that both Aquilaria and Gyrinops are not an important timber species and the wood produced is light and not decay resistant. The bark of the tree has been used in the past to make paper and twine and the wood sometimes reported to be used to make boxes or other small items. You can read further about Gibsons discussion in the following journal


Gibson, I.A.S. 1977. The role of fungi in the origin of oleoresin deposits of agaru in the wood of Aquilaria agallocha Roxb. Bano Biggyan Patrika (Journal of Forest Science) 6:16–26.


Further more Pojanagaroon, S.; Kaewrak, C states the following about the characteristics of Aquilaria species 'The healthy wood of Aquilaria trees is white, soft and without scented resins', this provides further understanding of the nature of the actual wood before infection. Once the infection is introduced the characteristics change and this is what we need to look at as well.


You can read more about this topic in the research paper write by Pojanagaroon, S.; Kaewrak, C. Mechanical methods to stimulate aloes wood formation in Aquiliria crassna Pierre ex H Lec (kritsana) trees. ISHS Acta Hort. 2006, 676, 161–166.


How is this important to us? it clarifies the property of the agarwood tree in wild. When we know that the wood produced by these trees are light compared to other hardwoods, and that it is not a timber species, then we know that it will not behave like other hardwoods when processed; chopped, milled, carved etc.


Secondly this also opens up for us another aspect of research and that is the wood cell structure. We can now look at the actual cell structure of this type of tree and how the vessels, fibres and parenchyma behave. Vessels which are the transport tubes within these trees have two types the Xylem is one and the other is phloem. The Xylem is of particular importance when looking at the inoculation process and why these hollow logs form.


For further reading please refer to the below


Wei, J.H.; Zhang, Z.; Yang, Y.; Meng, H.; Feng, J.D.; Gan, B.C. Production of agarwood in Aquilaria sinensis trees via transfusion technique. CN101755629B, 2010.


How does the wood differ in the cultivated trees? The difference is mainly due to the fact that the trees are not allowed to fully develop. When the trees are not allowed to fully develop and are inoculated in the transition period between young tree and mature tree then there are certain changes in the cell structures that have not completed and therefore the physical properties of the wood at the cell level would be different and how they handle the fungus would vary.


Agarwood trees in in transitional stages between primary growth and secondary growth suffer not having the different types of tubes being well defined. The transporters tubes and other cell structures that are related not being developed and defined has consequences on how the tree with standards attacks. In this phase the xylem (vessels and tracheids) and phloem categories are not mutually exclusive, and the main nutrient and water transport tubes are combined in the xylem category.


This is very important to note because later on when we discuss the inoculation and why the cores become hollow in the cultivated woods and not the wild woods, this is the one of the main reasons. For further readings please see


Editorial Board of Chinese Pharmacopoeia. Chinese Pharmacopoeia; Chinese Medicine Science and Technology Publishing House: Beijing, China, 2010; pp. 172–173.


Naef, R. The volatile and semi-volatile constituents of agarwood, the infected heartwood of Aquilaria species: A review. Flavour. Fragr. J. 2011, 26, 73–89.


2. Resin formation in natural wood vs resin formation in cultivated wood.


One of the major cell structure elements within the tree that the inoculation process depends on is the transport tubes within the structure. Growers aim to get the inoculation into the xylem structures as the xylem bundle of transport tubes and vessels carry the inducer all the way down the tree. Due to water transportation, the inducers are transported to the whole body of the tree, thus forming an overall wound in the tree, and as a result, agarwood is finally formed in the Aquilaria trees in a short period of time. Please view figure 1.


Due to most trees being inoculated at a young age, with sustained constant pumping of the inoculate into the xylem and the transportor tubes having not developed into their specific structures there isn’t a lot of structural support in the cell walls to hold up against the inducer assault and the core rots and crumble please view figure 3 . The xylem carries the inducers uniformly down its tubes forming fairly uniform logs within the core of the tree. Please view figure 2. You can note the clear cylindrical shape through the development of the resin.


In the wild when the fungus attacks the tree, the trees immune system traps the fungus in pockets and therefore the oudh forms in pockets. Then another attack will happen some time latter and likewise the tree will defend itself by surrounding the fungus and suffocating it with what turns to be oudh resin pockets. For columns to be possible in the wild then there needs to be fungus pouring into the tree at a rate similar to or greater than the inoculate being pumped in at a time when the tree is in its transitional phase.


Research that has been conducted on samples from the wild that demonstrate fungus attack occurs in phases and usually when the tree is older. This makes it nearly impossible that the wild trees will form agarwood in the manner that has been the topic of our discussion.


For further reading please read the article written by Robert Blanchette etal Growing Aquilaria and Production of Agarwood in Hill Agro-ecosystems.
 
@ Sharif,


happy to see you say NEARLY impossible… Not 100% impossible…


There are there fore some exceptions to the “rule†which are Sri Lankan longs (the pics i posted), logs used for Koon Mai Wan as well as Borneo Adventure 2 and some other wild logs I come across in Thiland, Malaysia and Indonesia that all look identical…


Will repeat again that the logs we used were NOT naturally hollow and the middle but it was manually removed and it was dense and hard just as logs on BA2 video…


Few pieces on the video remains full inside and you can see they are not soft, hollow or rotten there...


So yes, this types of logs are not very common but they do exist in wild. In plantation those are common yet the middle hollow naturally and the layer of resin is slim and the wood can be crushed with one hand as it is soft and gentle… nothing like the piece we used for Koon Mai Wan…
 
@ Peter ,


thank you for your kind words.


You see Sharif is only fulfilling his duty to inform and warn people against something he see as false.


It is his OPINION and it it his right to do so.


I would do exactly the same if he would share some of his pictures and i find them suspicious…


I would definitely express my OPINION and my concern…


Not pushing him to share pictures… just an example…
 
we will ask Taha for this, as i myself not yet planing going to jungle hihi =)


ps… reading : “ you are good with your cameraâ€, for a second i was thinking that you are going to invite me to film your factory and lab and all the fun that is happening there … but its ok… many be one day =) hihi


yeh… lets move on… soaking… what a great topic…


I would like to thank you for your private recommendations on soaking…


as you can see we realised quite a few Old School type of oils and many seem to like it…


I myself quite happy about that as before we were just focusing on something different and people tend to like less soaked oils…


However, now we see many going back to Old School type of oils… which I personally find very rewarding as I myself simply crazy about good and juicy funk….
 
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yes definitely… the impact of soaking is huge… probably due to the fact that soaking can be divided in to countless number of sub topics… and each tweaked the way one think is the best for reaching the target...


wood - different woods behave differently once soaked… each type require unique treatment…


water - there are so many different water with a different miner content each one impacts the out come differently…


materials - countless types of pots to soak in… made from glass and plastic to teak and agar wood…


temperature - from ice soaking (inside the water surrounded by ice ) to hot soaking ( at a very hot temperature just below the point when distillation begins) ...


time - from non soaked to …. 100 days or 100 years old soaked hahaha ….
 
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Any information on steam/hydro techniques reasoning? different apparatus? how it affects the oil? How to tell in which method an oil was distilled by smell? why choose hydro over steam and visa versa? this would be very useful information? Can anyone help? 🙄
 
Any information on steam/hydro techniques reasoning? different apparatus? how it affects the oil? How to tell in which method an oil was distilled by smell? why choose hydro over steam and visa versa? this would be very useful information? Can anyone help? 🙄
Assalaam'alaikum, finally I join this forum, ehehehe after thinking and thinking. Anyway since this is rather technical it maybe a trade secret involved in so distiller's rather hold their back in this topic. Oil produce by water and steam distillation usually having higher top notes and lighter color but not always, due the contact of steam is direct contact with the raw material and the steam penetrates quickly leaving the harder resin, in which why would call steam distillation is "purer" in some way. As for hydro distillation the process is applying as hydrodifusion, which means the water break into the cell forcing the cell content to get out and replaced by water, and then water mixed with the eo and some of soluble resin get boiled and vaporized and catch by the condenser. the hydro would usually in my opinion " old" type of aroma, which means deep and least top note. Strong on the middle and base. But the way to find what really different is by GC-MS.
 
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