Oud of the Day

[oudstronaut]

Fushigi Brunei Kyere and Malinau

I don’t know if this an alternate smelling for kyara, if it means something different, or if it’s just misspelled on the label. In any case, it smells very, very good.

Malinau is also excellent

I think it’s an attempt to either bring the kinamic notes “forward” in the profile or they have found a way to reliably imitate them. But as we’ve seen. For people who have actually experienced real Kinam they don’t cut it.

 

[User]

I think it’s an attempt to either bring the kinamic notes “forward” in the profile or they have found a way to reliably imitate them.

I don't understand what you mean.

They spelled it as Kyara when when they listed the items they had available, so I think it's just a typo.

 

[Al Shareef Oudh]

Vietnam Royale by Feel Oud.
Wowee, great oil. Am ~4-5hrs in with a fantastic drydown

Jame - do you find that a lot of those oils have a similar scent? There certainly seeme to be a common trait to all my samples I received from him. I bought quite a lot of wood too and some incense, the incense is good - wood is very so-so IMO

Sproaty you are a intelligent man, go down that line of enquiry and you will pretty much undo the mystery around the Taiwanese distiller and kynamic oils.

Are there any oils that you would say are actually kinamic? I have tried some from other vendors that say that their oils smell kinamic but I just don't really get it. Some people say that NTLTD is very strongly kinamic and some say there is no kinam note. I don't know who to believe.

The reason the end user is so confused about what is Kynamic is because their first interaction with the concept is at EO and they read oils from all over being described as kynamic, so their ability to pinpoint what it is has been lost in smoke and shifting mirrors. Keeping in mind that the Japanese have a specific definition for Kyara as a scent profile.

 

[User]

Sproaty you are a intelligent man, go down that line of enquiry and you will pretty much undo the mystery around the Taiwanese distiller and kynamic oils.


The reason the end user is so confused about what is Kynamic is because their first interaction with the concept is at EO and they read oils from all over being described as kynamic, so their ability to pinpoint what it is has been lost in smoke and shifting mirrors. Keeping in mind that the Japanese have a specific definition for Kyara as a scent profile.

So who's opinion can I trust? Is there an oil that I can expect to actually have a kinamic scent?

I have smelled some oils that are supposedly kinamic from sellers other than Ensar, but I am having a hard time pinning down any particular note that they share that is unique. I have been meaning to try some more of your oils. Do you have any oils that would qualify as kinamic?

 

[oudstronaut]

I don't understand what you mean.

They spelled it as Kyara when when they listed the items they had available, so I think it's just a typo.

I think I misunderstood what you were saying there. Apologies.

 

[Rename]

So who's opinion can I trust? Is there an oil that I can expect to actually have a kinamic scent?

I have smelled some oils that are supposedly kinamic from sellers other than Ensar, but I am having a hard time pinning down any particular note that they share that is unique. I have been meaning to try some more of your oils. Do you have any oils that would qualify as kinamic?

Serious question - have you had the opportunity to smell genuine Kynam / Kyara, Kodo-style yet? It’s not a singular scent, nor is it a singular location. But it is a singular category.

All Kynam / Kyara is Agarwood.
Very little Agarwood is Kynam / Kyara.

That would be the simplest way to answer all these questions. Get your nose on the woods. Also means you need a proper heater if you’re not doing the long-handed Kodo session.

Japanese Kyara, btw, tends to be either Green or Purple / Black, as those are their preferences. And specifically from Sham territory. They are not the only genuine Kynam though.

I’ve gone on long tirades about the actual definition of these words - and their misuse by the market and by certain vendors - on many occasions. I deal with this confusion ALL . THE . TIME. when people write me in my shop - generally by people speaking 2 particular vendor’s marketing language.

Have you wanted the 2 videos recently? In the second one I delve into these topics at length - for 2 whole hours. They are worth looking up

 

[User]

Serious question - have you had the opportunity to smell genuine Kynam / Kyara, Kodo-style yet? It’s not a singular scent, nor is it a singular location. But it is a singular category.

All Kynam / Kyara is Agarwood.
Very little Agarwood is Kynam / Kyara.

That would be the simplest way to answer all these questions. Get your nose on the woods. Also means you need a proper heater if you’re not doing the long-handed Kodo session.

Japanese Kyara, btw, tends to be either Green or Purple / Black, as those are their preferences. And specifically from Sham territory. They are not the only genuine Kynam though.

I’ve gone on long tirades about the actual definition of these words - and their misuse by the market and by certain vendors - on many occasions. I deal with this confusion ALL . THE . TIME. when people write me in my shop - generally by people speaking 2 particular vendor’s marketing language.

Have you wanted the 2 videos recently? In the second one I delve into these topics at length - for 2 whole hours. They are worth looking up

I don’t know what 2 videos you’re talking about. I watched the interview with Brandon Gilbert, if that’s one of them.

And yeah I’ll have to try some of the woods. A heater with some kyara wood are coming up on my list of things to buy, about third or so.

I tried 2-3 of your oils that were said to be kinamic but I am still lost. I’m about to try another one in a few days and maybe that will make it more clear. Or not haha

 

[iori]

So who's opinion can I trust? Is there an oil that I can expect to actually have a kinamic scent?

I have smelled some oils that are supposedly kinamic from sellers other than Ensar, but I am having a hard time pinning down any particular note that they share that is unique. I have been meaning to try some more of your oils. Do you have any oils that would qualify as kinamic?

honestly just try authentic wood and compare it to the oils.
personally those oils suppose to be kinamic or whatsoever i see them more just of profile to represent the regions not really kyara smell... just because some oils have 1-5% of certain note in the real kyara wood doesn't mean it smell kyara or kinam..and to be honest if you test high end wood of what those oils represent you would see the oils lack big time.

if you buying kyara try to get from japanese and reason for this many of chinese not all have bigger circle of acceptance of whats is kinam like "brunei, borneo/tarakan, malay etc" however if you going in deep its not bad to have little of each for reference to tell the difference

 

[Musk Rahil]

i think whoever owns kinam/kyara woods,can only point oil is real kinam/kyara or no.

 

[oudstronaut]

I don’t know what 2 videos you’re talking about. I watched the interview with Brandon Gilbert, if that’s one of them.

And yeah I’ll have to try some of the woods. A heater with some kyara wood are coming up on my list of things to buy, about third or so.

I tried 2-3 of your oils that were said to be kinamic but I am still lost. I’m about to try another one in a few days and maybe that will make it more clear. Or not haha

From what I’ve heard actual kinam smells very balanced. Descriptors I have heard are bitter, mentholic (and more of a sensation than actually smelling like peppermint or something), and floral similar to chrysanthemum. If you think about the oriscent oils. They definitely have a bitter medicinal blast on the opening but idk if I’d say it’s balanced…
In terms of JK’s oils that I’ve tried. It is my impression that the ones he calls kinamic have a combination of bitterness, a cooling/mentholic note, and some floral notes. The difference being that JK doesn’t claim that these oils ARE Kinam but only that they have “kinamic notes”… they remind him of the kinam profile.

Scent is just caused by aromatic compounds/molecules occurring naturally in the plants and, the molecules that make up the kinam profile are present in all agarwood as far as we know. This is a fun and quick read;

Agarwood Oil: a Few Characteristic Compounds | Phytochemia

phytochemia.com

 

[Mr.P]

I recall folks in past discussions stating there was an odor molecule that was unique to kyara, I believe it was the former baieido USA rep (Oller) who shared this so I assumed it to be correct. He never said it defined the scent, but that a gcms for kyara will stand out clearly from one for basically all other oud. Assuming this is true, I still don’t know to what degree it applies to the broader concept of “kinam” as used online these days.

Kyara/kinam(?) is also the only agarwood I have handled that had glutinous resin - it is sticky and fibers can be rolled into little balls… it sticks to the walls of the container, etc. so it seems like there is maybe a unique chemical that could be looked for. The other attribute is a room temp fragrance that smelled like the heated fragrance. For my other woods, the heated scent is distinct from the unheated wood scent.

 

[Rename]

I recall folks in past discussions stating there was an odor molecule that was unique to kyara, I believe it was the former baieido USA rep (Oller) who shared this so I assumed it to be correct. He never said it defined the scent, but that a gcms for kyara will stand out clearly from one for basically all other oud. Assuming this is true, I still don’t know to what degree it applies to the broader concept of “kinam” as used online these days.

Kyara/kinam(?) is also the only agarwood I have handled that had glutinous resin - it is sticky and fibers can be rolled into little balls… it sticks to the walls of the container, etc. so it seems like there is maybe a unique chemical that could be looked for. The other attribute is a room temp fragrance that smelled like the heated fragrance. For my other woods, the heated scent is distinct from the unheated wood scent.

It’s my understanding, from discussions with several of the companies in Japan that I’ve had *in person* - that part of the distinction of Kyara is a very high oil to resin balance. It’s what makes them potentially sticky (I say potentially as no all Kyara is “wet” or “sticky” … grades, etc)

It’s the same phenomenon that makes bead woods more valuable. That room temp aroma is from a higher % of Oil.

The Gulf Market tends to focus more on Resin Density.

The Asian Market in general - and the Japanese Market specifically - looks for a high % of both, with emphasis on Oil > Resin.

Resin, alone, smells flat. It’s the Oil that adds nuance and complexity. It’s why “Japanese woods” tend to smell so lively, and why woods graded on that manner are more highly prized.

It’s not to say that the Gulf Market doesn’t have room temp aromatic woods. It’s just not emphasized as much - and those nuances are usually entirely lost on charcoal. They dance at lower temps - hence the Kodo and Electric methods of indirect heating at lower temps. It’s to FOCUS on the top notes. The wood shouldn’t bubble like it does on charcoal. You’re doing it wrong if it does, by that standard. Off or burnt notes - so common on charcoal - are considered an offense to the wood.

Note that solvent extracted post distillation woods and even most CO2’s (I say most, not all) end up smelling flat and devoid of top notes. It’s due to the resin content - and often to lower grade woods being used. Resin smells flat. It’s why we burn resin dense woods (also because resin doesn’t come over in any meaningful quantity in distillation) and why the best oils come from high oil density woods with some levels of resin. It’s the high oil density. It’s why to a point, incense woods yield way more oil - it’s the OIL density.

These same principles are true in Kyara / Kynam + compounds that only exist in Kynam and not in regular Agarwoods.

It’s why I use the phrase :

“All Kynam is Agarwood,
Very little Agarwood is Kynam”

The Japanese, btw, only consider Kyara to come from Sham, which is a reference to a Kingdom’s territory that hasn’t even been around in 500 years.

Today we say “Vietnam”, but Sham encompasses modern day Vietnam, and parts of Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, and Southern China (in which Hainan is included). These woods were all exported through costal PORTS of Vietnam - hence why they’ll say today “Kyara comes from Vietnam”.

Other regions with Kyara-like formations - Brunei, Malaysia, Sumatra etc - would be termed “like Kyara”, but would never be called Kyara. That definition has expanded more in artisan circles and in some regards in a Chinese circles as the supply has dwindled. Including things that 100 years ago would never have been called Kyara. Heck … not even 20 years ago.

I brought to market Samundari - which is an Agallocha Kyara-like wood. From what I can tell, not a whole lot of Indian woods circulated in Japan. They tend to not like Malaccensis as much - and by default - Agallocha - as they do Crassna, Sinensis, and subspecies like Beccariana and Microcarpa.

Note that Japan has lots of indonesian wood - but they accept only very narrow odor profiles. Those profiles are primarily that of Beccariana and Microcarpa. It’s why “Japanese Indo” woods tend to be very floral smelling.

Filaria and Gyrinops in Japan are NOT considered Agarwood, btw. That’s an Arab thing, and a modern thing, at that. They’d literally laugh at me when I’d show them woods from Sri Lanka or the Philippines. We’d heat some and they’d all grimace 😆

I’ve shown dozens of owners and executives in Japan superb Gyrinops and Filaria (some Cumingiana, as well) - woods that would make our mouth’s here water - and every single one has said they are not Agarwood. They’d all make a sour face at me. It was cute.

So one big thing to keep in mind here is that we are borrowing from a multiplicity of disciplines and definitions here. Which in many ways adds to the complexity of nailing down a singular definition for things.

In this regard - flexibility and familiarity with different cultural standards and definitions is to our benefit.

Some more references :

More about Agarwood :

More about Kyara / Kynam :

 

[Rezwan]

It’s my understanding, from discussions with several of the companies in Japan that I’ve had *in person* - that part of the distinction of Kyara is a very high oil to resin balance. It’s what makes them potentially sticky (I say potentially as no all Kyara is “wet” or “sticky” … grades, etc)

It’s the same phenomenon that makes bead woods more valuable. That room temp aroma is from a higher % of Oil.

The Gulf Market tends to focus more on Resin Density.

The Asian Market in general - and the Japanese Market specifically - looks for a high % of both, with emphasis on Oil > Resin.

Resin, alone, smells flat. It’s the Oil that adds nuance and complexity. It’s why “Japanese woods” tend to smell so lively, and why woods graded on that manner are more highly prized.

It’s not to say that the Gulf Market doesn’t have room temp aromatic woods. It’s just not emphasized as much - and those nuances are usually entirely lost on charcoal. They dance at lower temps - hence the Kodo and Electric methods of indirect heating at lower temps. It’s to FOCUS on the top notes. The wood shouldn’t bubble like it does on charcoal. You’re doing it wrong if it does, by that standard. Off or burnt notes - so common on charcoal - are considered an offense to the wood.

Note that solvent extracted post distillation woods and even most CO2’s (I say most, not all) end up smelling flat and devoid of top notes. It’s due to the resin content - and often to lower grade woods being used. Resin smells flat. It’s why we burn resin dense woods (also because resin doesn’t come over in any meaningful quantity in distillation) and why the best oils come from high oil density woods with some levels of resin. It’s the high oil density. It’s why to a point, incense woods yield way more oil - it’s the OIL density.

These same principles are true in Kyara / Kynam + compounds that only exist in Kynam and not in regular Agarwoods.

It’s why I use the phrase :

“All Kynam is Agarwood,
Very little Agarwood is Kynam”

The Japanese, btw, only consider Kyara to come from Sham, which is a reference to a Kingdom’s territory that hasn’t even been around in 500 years.

Today we say “Vietnam”, but Sham encompasses modern day Vietnam, and parts of Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, and Southern China (in which Hainan is included). These woods were all exported through costal PORTS of Vietnam - hence why they’ll say today “Kyara comes from Vietnam”.

Other regions with Kyara-like formations - Brunei, Malaysia, Sumatra etc - would be termed “like Kyara”, but would never be called Kyara. That definition has expanded more in artisan circles and in some regards in a Chinese circles as the supply has dwindled. Including things that 100 years ago would never have been called Kyara. Heck … not even 20 years ago.

I brought to market Samundari - which is an Agallocha Kyara-like wood. From what I can tell, not a whole lot of Indian woods circulated in Japan. They tend to not like Malaccensis as much - and by default - Agallocha - as they do Crassna, Sinensis, and subspecies like Beccariana and Microcarpa.

Note that Japan has lots of indonesian wood - but they accept only very narrow odor profiles. Those profiles are primarily that of Beccariana and Microcarpa. It’s why “Japanese Indo” woods tend to be very floral smelling.

Filaria and Gyrinops in Japan are NOT considered Agarwood, btw. That’s an Arab thing, and a modern thing, at that. They’d literally laugh at me when I’d show them woods from Sri Lanka or the Philippines. We’d head some and they’d all grimace 😆

I’ve shown dozens of owners and executives in Japan superb Gyrinops and Filaria (some Cumingiana, as well) - woods that would make our mouth’s here water - and every single one has said they are not Agarwood. They’d all make a sour face at me. It was cute.

So one big thing to keep in mind here is that we are borrowing from a multiplicity of disciplines and definitions here. Which in many ways adds to the complexity of nailing down a singular definition for things.

In this regard - flexibility and familiarity with different cultural standards and definitions is to our benefit.

Some more references :

More about Agarwood :

More about Kyara / Kynam :

Great info, thank you for sharing 🙂👍

 

[Rename]

Great info, thank you for sharing 🙂👍

My pleasure.

Beware of people who latch on to key words and phrases and then market the hell out of them.

It’s why I’m so reluctant to use these terms. I rather hate how people won’t buy something unless you use the terms. Pavlov’s Dogs 🐶

I’ve said for years that people need to learn that the things many vendors say are OPINIONS or MARKETING.

Not Statements of Fact or Truth

It’s why I’ll so often say “in the Japanese / Gulf / Wherever Market” to clarify a PERSPECTIVE

“Perspective”, btw - may also encompass my own. It’s my own angle. Many vendors have their own angle. Nothing wrong with that. But hop to another vendor and their perspective / angle may not be valid. Their definitions may not align elsewhere.

Not all Markets or definitions are in agreement. Often there may be overlap - but more often than not, there are opinions and they are not 1:1.

Many cultural perspectives and definitions here are being conflated.

 

[Rename]

My pleasure.

Beware of people who latch on to key words and phrases and then market the hell out of them.

It’s why I’m so reluctant to use these terms. I rather hate how people won’t buy something unless you use the terms. Pavlov’s Dogs 🐶

I’ve said for years that people need to learn that the things many vendors say are OPINIONS or MARKETING.

Not Statements of Fact or Truth

It’s why I’ll so often say “in the Japanese / Gulf / Wherever Market” to clarify a PERSPECTIVE

“Perspective”, btw - may also encompass my own. It’s my own angle. Many vendors have their own angle. Nothing wrong with that. But hop to another vendor and their perspective / angle may not be valid. Their definitions may not align elsewhere.

Not all Markets or definitions are in agreement. Often there may be overlap - but more often than not, there are opinions and they are not 1:1.

Many cultural perspectives and definitions here are being conflated.

I keep writing and then think of more things I keep wanting to clarify. I talked for 3 1/2 HOURS in those two videos I posted above. You can't contain everything in a few posts, let alone dozens of them. I could talk for DAYS about this stuff, and we'd only be scratching the surface. Especially because without actually smelling and handling these woods, it's all just "What does a Strawberry smell like?"

When I talk about MARKETS ...

Japanese market is pretty unified on their paramters and definitions - but even then, there are SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT. Literal Schools. Then - there is each individual COMPANY. This is why you can buy Sandalwood from 5 different companies - and each company has a consistent sandalwood odor profile to them, but EACH COMPANY has a distinctive Sandalwood odor profile. All Mysore / Indian, btw. Yet not all the same. Each NUANCED.

In other words, even in Japan, there may be general consensus, but there is still disagreement and perspective. Not arguing, per se - but not consensus across the board.

Same is true in every market.

Even when I say "The Gulf Market", as if it's one singular thing ... I can't help but laugh. Each country within that market has their preferences - and even then, the last 2 decades those preferences have wavered both as availability and costs have shifted, as well as new origins like Sri Lanka or the Philippines have hit the wide scale market. Us artisans here have also had a big impact, as many clients have started to look for less fermented or non-fermented oils, while others ask for even more potently fermented.

The point here is - the Markets, even within a singular "Market" - are not unified. And then there are Individual tastes to take into account.

Japanese, btw, consider BITTER woods to be classified as "Kyara" and are often used in their "Kyara" sticks. NOTE that most Japanese "Kyara" sticks contain NO Kyara as it is defined. It's essentially a perfumery attempt at capturing the scent and feel of "real Kyara". Again - Definitions and Perspectives - AND Artistic License.

I have purchased many "kyara-like" woods IN Japan. NOT Kyara. But smells LIKE Kyara - or has a TEXTURE like Kyara (oily). Most people outside of Japan would likely market them "as" Kyara.

Confused yet? 😉

It's fun being a Vendor. 😵 Especially one that tries to actually shoot straight with ya. This is what *actual* transparency looks like. The lines aren't as straight or as black and white as we'd like them to be. HOPEFULLY - a vendor at least tries to hold true to their own philosophical approaches.

 

[Mr.P]

Back to the oud of the day here…

This was sold as a “Malaysian, dark” oil by Magnifincense (Singapore) back in 2002 or so. It had some really intense very bitter quality to the topnote that i did not like and made it hard to wear even though it settled to something really nice. Because of this, I decided to age in a bottle with a cork top to allow for some small amount of gas exchange to encourage some kind of transformation. I check on it once a year or so - it is now a dark, bitter, sweet, delicious oud, smells absolutely top shelf.

I’m sure you all know this but if you ever get something that you think is pure, but has some odd notes you don’t like, it might be worth trying a little bit of accelerated aging as opposed to swelling or swapping. This climbed from the bottom to the top shelf over about 20 years of aging for the whatever that is worth.

 

[EJayB]

Back to the oud of the day here…

This was sold as a “Malaysian, dark” oil by Magnifincense (Singapore) back in 2002 or so. It had some really intense very bitter quality to the topnote that i did not like and made it hard to wear even though it settled to something really nice. Because of this, I decided to age in a bottle with a cork top to allow for some small amount of gas exchange to encourage some kind of transformation. I check on it once a year or so - it is now a dark, bitter, sweet, delicious oud, smells absolutely top shelf.

I’m sure you all know this but if you ever get something that you think is pure, but has some odd notes you don’t like, it might be worth trying a little bit of accelerated aging as opposed to swelling or swapping. This climbed from the bottom to the top shelf over about 20 years of aging for the whatever that is worth.View attachment 30026

Looks beautiful, your patience is amazing 💪🏼

 

[Sproaty]

Al Hashimi - Tariq 2. Still pretty different to the first one, which (from memory) seemed a more pungent/firey Hindi. This is tamed down and it doesn't seem like the contrast between Hindi/Cambodi is so pronounced.
I am really enjoying this oil though, please don't take what is written above as a negative - just a comparison.
I think I may have a tiny tiny bit of the OG Tariq left in a sample so I'll have to do a side-by-side and see if my scent memory is correct. From past experiences, it's not 😅 and also my tastes in smells change a lot whereas I always thought they were pretty set in stone.

Back to the oud of the day here…

haha, I was gonna start this message with the first line of yours! (I hadn't refreshed the page to see new posts since your message about the molecules)

 

[Kolalid]

Habzoud Al Jannah 3
Another sample shared with me by Jame

I really love this one. I don’t think I’ve ever experienced a pure oud that was this sweet and floral. Beautifully creamy with a hint of some warm spicy cinnamon/woody notes. Nothing funky whatsoever, one of the cleanest ouds I’ve ever smelled.

 

[User]

Back to the oud of the day here…

This was sold as a “Malaysian, dark” oil by Magnifincense (Singapore) back in 2002 or so. It had some really intense very bitter quality to the topnote that i did not like and made it hard to wear even though it settled to something really nice. Because of this, I decided to age in a bottle with a cork top to allow for some small amount of gas exchange to encourage some kind of transformation. I check on it once a year or so - it is now a dark, bitter, sweet, delicious oud, smells absolutely top shelf.

I’m sure you all know this but if you ever get something that you think is pure, but has some odd notes you don’t like, it might be worth trying a little bit of accelerated aging as opposed to swelling or swapping. This climbed from the bottom to the top shelf over about 20 years of aging for the whatever that is worth.

I don't think I have ever done this to remove a top note, but maybe I will try it. I have had some oils that would just not be very good unless they were sort of aired out first. The one that comes to mind is Borneo 50k from Ensar. I noticed that it would smell better after it was sitting in a sample vial for a while. So now I make sure to keep a sample vial around with a little bit of B50k in it, and laid on it's side.