"Divorce in Taiwan" - who is EO talking about?
- Thread starter Mick
- Start date
100% correct. There is so much crap out there due to vendors dishonestly marketing that a lot of people are fixated on certain things with absolutely no basis. Unfortunately it is what they believe and I have long given up trying to point the obvious out to these so called "expert oud consumers". This forum and community were founded in the hope that peer cross-checking and open discussion could clear the air and to some degree it has succeeded, but a lot of damage has been done in the form of residual beliefs that will only fade with time.
Mr.P
oud<3er
You make some good points but some very broad generalizations noMysteries.. I don’t disagree with much of what you say but I feel obliged to mention that my experience with a couple of the good people putting wood into glass containers have not been as you describe - there are some very generous folks who happen to care about presentation but aren’t using it to dazzle naive consumers and aren’t moving huge volumes.
Ahmaoud
True Ouddict
Not much I can add to what's already been said (@language scent basically hit the nail on the head), but just wanted to say William that over the last couple of days as I've been reading older threads and starting to feel a similar sentiment. At the same time there's a lot of reason not to regret your purchases mentioned in this thread and elsewhere too though. I think the best route is to enjoy those memories but approach the marketing material with some caution. That's how I'm approaching these oils moving forward. Hopefully as we learn more and sample from several different vendors we'll be able to grade the oils ourselves, detached from how certain vendors are known to have acted.
I guess another way of looking at it is, even if you've found issues with a certain oil now, it was an entry point for you to further explore this hobby, so the enjoyment you derive daily from it, can in a sense be tracked back to it. But echoing your concerns, it's a not so great feeling seeing how differently people can come across in the public versus the private.
Arabiad07
True Ouddict
Based on what. Cost? Quality? Not as advertised? Adulterated?
Mr.P
oud<3er
One part of me hates to say this but I think your instinct not to mention names in this thread was probably the right one. I am not saying that bad experiences or knowledge of unscrupulous practices should not be shared (the cost of some of the oils and market chicanery means this is probably the most important information to have because bad purchases either waste your money or give you a misunderstanding about agarwood or both otherwise)…
its just that the practical reality is for these communities to function in their current form statements like this about a specific vendor (here and on every other forum I frequent) ends up getting the thread locked / deleted. I completely understand why site administrators don’t want to host or moderate/police these kinds of discussions (people could exploit it under a random username to undermine competition as one example).
Talking about the market in general terms I think will result in something that doesn’t just flame out lol
Does anyone have an idea how to create an open system where one can share good and bad reviews publicly that will not immediately be rendered useless by false praise and condemnation? That should be a thread.
its just that the practical reality is for these communities to function in their current form statements like this about a specific vendor (here and on every other forum I frequent) ends up getting the thread locked / deleted. I completely understand why site administrators don’t want to host or moderate/police these kinds of discussions (people could exploit it under a random username to undermine competition as one example).
Talking about the market in general terms I think will result in something that doesn’t just flame out lol
Does anyone have an idea how to create an open system where one can share good and bad reviews publicly that will not immediately be rendered useless by false praise and condemnation? That should be a thread.
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Hi Mr P, you make some very valid points. When Ouddict was established I naively thought that people would post honest reviews - good and bad - but found over time that it is not as simple as that. In private people don't hesitate to bad mouth oils or perfumes they buy, but in public they are as quiet as a mouse. There could be various reasons for this including worrying that the vendor may refuse to sell them oils again (one well known vendor outside this forum does this regularly to keep customers quiet) or it may be that the customer does not want to reduce their chances of a resale. Often, reviews reflect personal preferences and so one person's negative review may not apply to others.
None of the above points should preclude a thread being opened on here that encourages open and honest reviews, but it has to be moderated to ensure the reviews follow certain guidelines. For example accusing a vendor of adulterating an oil or selling fake wood is a serious accusation that must be furnished with proof and in the first instance, forwarded to the vendor for their response and thereafter the forum management if the response is not satisfactory. Moreover a review should only be made by a paying customer who is a known member of the community and not anonymous to ensure that it is genuine otherwise this opens the door to shills and the like.
Regarding your idea for this thread, in theory it is a good idea and despite being unwell, @Taesik Yun has been helping manage the forum (along with other mods and admins) as I have been very hands-off for the past 2-3 years due to personal circumstances. If he has time time, he might be able to set something a thread up as you suggest, but it will take mods to manage it and this is our weak point as we do not have enough volunteers. If I recall correctly, you were a mod once, but it can become quite an onerous responsibility.
Mr.P
oud<3er
I appreciated the trust and am happy to help out in one way or another. I will DM you.
I stepped down not because it was onerous in any way, I just was pretty sure at the time that i was too opinionated and way too tempted to call out what I perceived to be BS to actually have a moderating effect on anything.
I remember there were a few threads / issues where I was having a hard time biting my tongue, and I just said screw it and stepped down so I could speak my mind! I lack the dignity and restraint of Taesik for example 😅
I stepped down not because it was onerous in any way, I just was pretty sure at the time that i was too opinionated and way too tempted to call out what I perceived to be BS to actually have a moderating effect on anything.
I remember there were a few threads / issues where I was having a hard time biting my tongue, and I just said screw it and stepped down so I could speak my mind! I lack the dignity and restraint of Taesik for example 😅
I am not sure if this idea is practical or not but having a 'locked' subforum for reviews where every thread/post is not posted until a moderator reviews the post [to verify that the contributor meets the criteria for posting reviews] and then anonymizes the post [possibly by posting the review under their own name] to hide the identity of the posting individual. This may ensure no 'bad blood' between the customer/reviewer and the vendor. But I do not see how an individual posting a bad review will then later be able to resell it easily.
In all honesty, vendors who treat customers poorly after a genuine bad review, rather than using that feedback to improve their offerings do not deserve future custom and my advice would be to buy elsewhere. Remember it might just be a reflection of the customer taste and not necessarily an issue with the oud itself. I don't see why customers should remain anonymous and vendors should have the right to respond once to the thread.
Mr.P
oud<3er
Stating the obvious here and maybe someone already said it - anonymity also makes it easier for people to say outrageous things because they won’t be held accountable, whereas limiting reviews to people who are recognized on some level - akin to the minimum post count to sell here…something along those lines is more likely to lead to restraint.
I see there is a level of camaraderie on top of the vendor/customer dynamic and it is sometimes hard to disappoint people who you feel are friends.
I see there is a level of camaraderie on top of the vendor/customer dynamic and it is sometimes hard to disappoint people who you feel are friends.
Faris
True Ouddict
Also I feel (since smell is subjective), it’s unwise/unnecessary to tell the vendor that you don’t like how the oil smells & it did not meet your expectations. Such a review isn’t going to be shared either & others aren’t going to know unless you personally/publicly inform them.
Furthermore, If the vendor is receiving (most likely he is) positive reviews from others (genuine or not), he will naturally think there’s nothing wrong with the oil & it’s just you who doesn’t like it (for whatever reasons).
In such & most cases, constructive criticism will be futile as well because others probably like the oil.
[Although some or maybe most people struggle to differentiate b/w good & bad, including me]
Lastly, as someone (rightly) mentioned psychology here, it def is true that when you make an expensive purchase, you do force yourself (to some extent) to like the purchase as much as possible, so that you can justify the money you spent & be guilt free; Perhaps what matters at the end of the day.
P.S - I feel we should criticise (publicly) when we order a car & a tire is missing & not when the tires turn out too smooth for our liking.
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William Birch
Frankincense Monster
Just the shady business practices that Ensar seems to engage in.
I understand that businesses need to make money but idk seeing how honest and transparent businesses on this forum are makes some of Ensar’s shenanigans seem a lot worse.
William Birch
Frankincense Monster
I just wanted to thank you sir the more I’ve thought about your words the more I understand it to be true.
language scent
True Woodict
its so true bro. in my opinion one of ensars oils, an oil that was only 670$/2.5g (oud ertugrul) completely blows away all his oricents at least the ones i tried. not everyone thinks this. honestly tho, its my life, my nose so it doesnt matter one bit what anyone thinks. oud ertugrul is ensars holy grail LOL im guessing everyone has their own favorite oil, and that one is mines.
William Birch
Frankincense Monster
I’ve interacted with Trent from Grandawood he’s a very kind man 🙂
William Birch
Frankincense Monster
This is so true, I’ve seen Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and Hindus on this forum and nobody has voiced any problems.
language scent
True Woodict
Yea of course! It is always dark forces with connections and money who divide all people. We are all born family via blood and senses and that is key to it all. Everything else is superficial installed to control and separate us from the truth that we are worldwide family. Anything that divides us from the family ideal is the enemy
He used to be a forum vendor in the early days. Very decent person.
